City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Super Packs Update - 12/12/2011

Agent White

By Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-12 19:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Party_Kake View Post
It's not mandatory!
It's not, but I do find it upsetting when there's a cool costume part and I can't formulate a clear plan as to how to get it. It's livable for me if the answer is "I can't put in the time" or "I can't afford that", but if the answer is "there does not exist an algorithm known to terminate" that's annoying to me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
That post was only intended to illustrate a situation where specific people would actually not be customers if Superpacks had exclusive costumes, and be customers if they weren't exclusive. It wasn't to show that Paragon would make more money if they allowed people to buy the costumes separately.
You still don't even acknowledge that those groups could be tiny.

And I suspect that they are.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Player A announces how the money will be split between A and B.
Player B can veto, in which case neither gets money.

Obviously, if A gives B any money at all, B comes out ahead by cooperating. But in practice, if A gives B less than about a third of the money, B is most likely to veto.
I would argue this is more a case of:
Player A announces how the money will be split between A and B.
Player B agrees.

Person C walks in off the street and vetoes the deal because they have their own views of what's fair for B different from what B does.

If our slightly less abstract example of the 'game' in question is, say, B agreeing to work for less than minimum wage, then there's documented economic, social, and other concerns at work that demonstrate this is a problem for the health of not just that person, but of others as well.

There are many things that would fall under 'demonstrably harmful', but I don't think grab bags with exclusive (either permanently or temporarily so) swag fall into that category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

Posted

I missed something at some point.

Is there some kind of overview on ATOs somewhere? All I know so far is that they're archetype exclusive. I don't know anything about so much as the concept for the sets or what they theoretically offer.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Party_Kake View Post
You still don't even acknowledge that those groups could be tiny.

And I suspect that they are.
The size of the groups is irrelevant to the point I was making. I'm not involved in an argument about that.

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Posted

I guess I can see finding the idea of the game being run a given way upsetting enough to not want to participate. I certainly dislike, quite a bit, the notion of costume parts which can only be gotten through random purchases, and which are (so far as I can tell) not tradeable.

Thinking about it more: If more of the things in Super Packs other than costume parts appealed to me, I might buy them, but. As is, they are distressing to me to interact with. I don't like the random aspect, and I probably want the costume parts. But I don't want to buy a bunch of random stuff to get costume parts. So I find them distressing.

If they weren't the only way to get costume parts, I might go buy the costume parts -- and then super packs would no longer be distressing, so if I liked what they had on offer, I might get them.

Go figure.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
That post was only intended to illustrate a situation where specific people would actually not be customers if Superpacks had exclusive costumes, and be customers if they weren't exclusive. It wasn't to show that Paragon would make more money if they allowed people to buy the costumes separately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
The size of the groups is irrelevant to the point I was making. I'm not involved in an argument about that.
Do you consider it axiomatic that more customers in a specific subset of people is always better, even if that could come at less profit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
Do you consider it axiomatic that more customers in a specific subset of people is always better, even if that could come at less profit?
This is also not what I was trying to say.

I was only trying to give examples where people would not be arguing for a situation where they would not be customers, by saying that they wouldn't be customers if they couldn't get some feature they wanted for free. That's it. I thought that would make you understand some people's positions better, as I got the impression from your post that you didn't.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I guess I can see finding the idea of the game being run a given way upsetting enough to not want to participate. I certainly dislike, quite a bit, the notion of costume parts which can only be gotten through random purchases, and which are (so far as I can tell) not tradeable.

Thinking about it more: If more of the things in Super Packs other than costume parts appealed to me, I might buy them, but. As is, they are distressing to me to interact with. I don't like the random aspect, and I probably want the costume parts. But I don't want to buy a bunch of random stuff to get costume parts. So I find them distressing.

If they weren't the only way to get costume parts, I might go buy the costume parts -- and then super packs would no longer be distressing, so if I liked what they had on offer, I might get them.

Go figure.
That's a compelling argument.

But how could it be tested?

Have two different kinds of super packs? each has a different set of costume pieces that can be unlocked, but only one of them gives the option of obtaining the costume parts in a different way? then Paragon would be able to determine which set of packs earned more money. But how could that even be a fair comparison if the costume parts had differing levels of desirability?

I suspect that whichever costume part was rarer, even if it were identical to another, would be more desirable. Rarity creates and enhances demand.

you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3

 

Posted

no really what is an enhancement catalyst D:

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machariel View Post
no really what is an enhancement catalyst D:
I think it turns one enhancement into a different type of enhancement. like it changes a +damage enhancement into a +accuracy one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
The size of the groups is irrelevant to the point I was making. I'm not involved in an argument about that.
That's ridiculous. Saying "If you do this some customers will be angry enough to not be customers, but it doesn't matter how many of them there are" is just so blatantly oblivious to the point that I don't know if you're thinking straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
This is also not what I was trying to say.

I was only trying to give examples where people would not be arguing for a situation where they would not be customers, by saying that they wouldn't be customers if they couldn't get some feature they wanted for free. That's it. I thought that would make you understand some people's positions better, as I got the impression from your post that you didn't.
Now you're just confused.

Let me paint a picture for you:

If I said "If you disagree with me, you will die." You would imply a direct causation between the two events, even if what I meant was "If you disagree with me, you will die someday, and I have no idea how."

It's also far more likely that you will die someday regardless of whether you disagree with me or not.

So let's put this into context:

You claim some people will stop being customers if super packs happens.
They know super packs will happen.

Thus they are stating they will not be customers for long.
Will refraining from releasing super packs retain these customers? NO.
There is insufficient evidence to even suggest that preventing super packs will "save" these customers. They have stated they'll cancel their subs, this does NOT mean that the cancellation isn't forced anyways. They may decide to cancel their subs because they are bankrupt and can't afford it in the first place. They may decide to cancel their subs regardless of whether the super packs are released, because the company decided to even entertain the idea.

I, for one, quit World of Warcraft for an entire year because of the Real ID debacle, and told them to delete my posts from all their forums and ban my account permanently as I didn't want to be associated with them. I did this DESPITE them retracting their position because I wanted them to feel it. It was not enough that they "changed their mind" about declaring war against my privacy. Did they feel it? I don't know, but I do know their subscriber numbers have been downward sloping since, despite my coming back to the game.

The number of people who will actually quit being customers over this is a HUGE part of your argument even if you dismiss it. And denying that does not help you.

you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
The only way for Paragon to actually learn how this really works is to actually try it. If there's too much attempt to hedge bets before real metrics can be obtained, then the ultimate message is 'We can't afford to innovate'.
Just wanted to point out, Super Packs are not an "innovative new idea". Many other MMOs have already tried it, including our (I think less-successful) direct competitor. To me, that's enough of a reason to err on the side of caution - you should always be keeping an eye on what the competition is doing, but if you're pulling ahead then the #1 lesson you can learn from them is what pitfalls to avoid. You shouldn't be trying to mimic their behaviour.

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Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machariel View Post
no really what is an enhancement catalyst D:
An enhancement catalyst turns an ATO into an Attuned ATO. This makes it untradable, but it also gives it better stats and set bonuses. This has to be done for each piece in the set you want to convert (and it's basically transitioning the pieces from the non-attuned set to the attuned set).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokalus View Post
Just wanted to point out, Super Packs are not an "innovative new idea".
I didn't say it was an entirely new idea, just that it was Paragon attempting to do something different. They're trying to explore revenue models, after all, and that qualifies as attempting to innovate within their market space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokalus View Post
Many other MMOs have already tried it, including our (I think less-successful) direct competitor. To me, that's enough of a reason to err on the side of caution - you should always be keeping an eye on what the competition is doing, but if you're pulling ahead then the #1 lesson you can learn from them is what pitfalls to avoid. You shouldn't be trying to mimic their behaviour.
The same logic you use here could be used to argue that Paragon should never have attempted the Freedom model, because it was 'less successful' for some competition.

You can't look at something from another context and use its success or failure to judge something similar in a different context. We don't have another City of Heroes to permit us control and experimental samples, so we have to do that here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokalus View Post
Just wanted to point out, Super Packs are not an "innovative new idea". Many other MMOs have already tried it, including our (I think less-successful) direct competitor. To me, that's enough of a reason to err on the side of caution - you should always be keeping an eye on what the competition is doing, but if you're pulling ahead then the #1 lesson you can learn from them is what pitfalls to avoid. You shouldn't be trying to mimic their behaviour.
BTW, for that competitor players also complained LOUDLY about the random aspect of certain items being in their versions of the packs.

There is nothing in these packs that would get me to buy them ever.

The costume pieces i await being available elsewhere also. But I'm not too much excited about them with what they've shown so far.

Putting them as a Tier 9 reward is an okay idea.

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Posted

[QUOTE=Void_Huntress;4028487]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokalus View Post
Just wanted to point out, Super Packs are not an "innovative new idea".

I didn't say it was an entirely new idea, just that it was Paragon attempting to do something different. They're trying to explore revenue models, after all, and that qualifies as attempting to innovate within their market space.



The same logic you use here could be used to argue that Paragon should never have attempted the Freedom model, because it was 'less successful' for some competition.

You can't look at something from another context and use its success or failure to judge something similar in a different context. We don't have another City of Heroes to permit us control and experimental samples, so we have to do that here.
Errr, Void_Huntress, the Freedom model was VERY sucessful for nearly all the competition that tired it. In fact this game's direct competition would have closed down completely if not for them going to that model. That's not a very good argument to use, though I see your point. I'm down with them trying new things, as I've said before (including things my wallet wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole). However if I think something won't make that much money I'll say so. They are still welcome to try. I'm not completely unreasonable.

For me personally I like to know exactly what I'm getting with my money. I don't gamble in real life and I don't gamble in game either. This isn't inf. This is real money I'm spending, or in this case choosing not to spend.

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Posted

Three thoughts:

I dislike the idea of those with more money get the full game, complete with all the options, while those of us on a tight budget are just out of luck. Will these "random booster packs" make it so the only way to compete is to buy the packs and hope for your luck?

The fact that it IS gambling, and a lot of people will look at it like that, might actually affect sales. Some religions/ethics/personal beliefs forbid gambling. And seriously, what about recovering gambling addicts?

Third: Even though I'm a subscriber, I'm starting to feel a little nickle and dimed here. New powersets? Shell out $15. New costume parts? More money. Now, for enhancements, I have to shell out even more money? I was all for the microtransactions, I understood the whole thing, understood the pricing, and understood that it would allow the company to take risks, but this just feels like "Here's our equivalent of a collectable trading card system! Buy up, suckers!"

I hate to say it, but I don't gamble with money. At all. I don't play the nickle slots, I don't play video poker, I don't play punchboards. I. Do. Not. Gamble.

And I strongly resent the fact that Paragon Studios has decided that if I want to be able to play the game, I have to gamble. I find it insulting.

Adding in costume pieces that you either have to wait half a year to get, or start playing costume/enhancement roulette at a $1 a throw is just a cheap shot to me.

Sure, I'll get stuff, and that's the argument. But when you bought trading card packs you got cards.

It's just a lot of them were worthless, had no playability, and you might as well have thrown your money at a homeless guy, at least it would have done some good.

So now I have to gamble, for stuff that might be completely worthless, for possibly getting the same things over and over and over, without ever getting what I am really after, or without getting that costume piece I want so desperately.

I object to this in the most strongest terms.

And I'll vote with my wallet.

I won't purchase a single one. Ever.

And I'll encourage everyone else to boycott these packs.

I don't play City of Heroes to throw dice for a dollar a shot.

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Posted

^^^^^
This sums up my thoughts pretty much completely. I hated it when CCGs did it, and I hate it more in the MMO I love to play enough that I pay to subscribe to it (which, for me - regardless of subscription price - is a Huge deal).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
1 Reward Token does not = $15.00. You pay your VIP subscription, and the Reward Token is only a part of what you're getting in return. Same goes for PP purchases. You still get $15 in value out of your PP, Reward Tokens are just something extra.
Yes, the reward token is a part of either a player's monthly subscription or PP purchase. Either way approximately $15 is used (okay, the 12+2 month subscribers are getting those tokens for spending at little as $10/month).

We've plenty of examples where players are doing the math exactly as I did when it came to the Celestial Costume and I think you will have an uphill battle with those posters.

Additionally, barring the announcement for buying multiple packs, buying $15 worth of PP will get you 16 (actually 16.5) packs + 5 more, $30 will get you 43 packs ((16.5*2)+5+5). That is how your customers that have addiction will see the packs. It will be how those that desperately want the costume pieces or the ATOs will see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man View Post
Gonna have to second Z on this, Snow Globe. Given how much we've participated in Freedom discussions together, I feel you really should know better than to value 1 Reward Token at $15. It's an extra perk on top of the money spent, not the (intended) reason for spending that money.
Living with a relative with a gambling addiction, I think I can say that whatever Paragon Studios intended with having Reward Tokens to get packs, the tokens will now seem to be the reason for buying PP or subscribing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliin View Post
In addition to what Zwillinger said, I'm not really sure what about the T9 reward tokens would lead you to think that each token placed will reward you with $15 of virtual goods. I mean right now it gives 8 windfalls, xp boosters and unslotters which basically equate to 750 points (so just shy of $10). And while the enhancement boosters don't come in groupings of 30 like they sell them in the store (for 900 points) but the 25 enhancement booster T9 reward is roughly about $10 worth of store items too.

So yea, they're generally equitable with $10 of virtual stuff on that tier. So given that I'd hope maybe 9-10 for each token.
Edit: Even if it's less and ends up being something like 5 packs it's effectively free so I'm not likely to be complaining about it. Maybe grumbling a little, but not complaining.
Ok, I stand corrected. $10, not $15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
With that logic, we spent $45 on Celestial Armor + Weapons.
And that was exactly what some players did.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusted_Metal View Post
I dislike the idea of those with more money get the full game, complete with all the options, while those of us on a tight budget are just out of luck.
Under the old model, if you were on a tight budget you wouldn't get to play the game at all. Now you can play even if you can only afford $5 a month. No, you don't get everything, but before you had nothing for $5.

Quote:
The fact that it IS gambling, and a lot of people will look at it like that, might actually affect sales. Some religions/ethics/personal beliefs forbid gambling. And seriously, what about recovering gambling addicts?
What about them? Their afflictions are theirs to deal with. Should a store stop selling wine because a recovering alcoholic might wander in?

Quote:
And I strongly resent the fact that Paragon Studios has decided that if I want to be able to play the game, I have to gamble. I find it insulting.
What's insulting is this misrepresentation. You don't have to gamble to play the game. You have to gamble if you want some minor cool prizes that make the game nicer but not playable. And I'm not even convinced it's gambling, as you always get something.

Quote:
So now I have to gamble, for stuff that might be completely worthless, for possibly getting the same things over and over and over, without ever getting what I am really after, or without getting that costume piece I want so desperately.
It's entirely up to you how much you want that costume. And by no means is a costume you never had before necessary to make the game playable.

I understand and even sympathize with many of the objections to these packs. Yours are weak and based on falsehoods. If you're not going to buy, don't buy, but don't act like you're not going to get to play the freaking game if you don't buy them.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Yes, the reward token is a part of either a player's monthly subscription or PP purchase. Either way approximately $15 is used (okay, the 12+2 month subscribers are getting those tokens for spending at little as $10/month).

We've plenty of examples where players are doing the math exactly as I did when it came to the Celestial Costume and I think you will have an uphill battle with those posters.
Which naturally raises the question: Is it worth trying to appease players who will distort the truth for their own rhetorical ends?

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Now for the new stuff (12/12/2011):
  • Super Packs will be available as a Tier 9 Repeatable Paragon Reward Program option. Right now the idea is that players will be able to redeem a Paragon Reward Token for 5 Super Packs. This number is, as is the case with all things in beta, subject to change.
I'll keep everyone updated as more decisions are made. Please be sure to check these out when they hit beta.

Thanks!

-Z
Sounds fine as long as the reward can be not 'random'. And would it be possible to remove all the stuff I don't want from the pack once I get it. Hmm, I guess I just don't want a super pack at all.

It feels like they keep upping the ante to see if we'll be appeased by the changes, but really, really, really want something 'exclusive' in the Super Packs because they know the random 'buy till you get lucky' is going to be a real money maker for them, and the real reason they will sell.

*shrug* I really don't want anything in the super packs 'except' the costume pieces, and I really don't like gambling for rewards with money. But, if I can't get them anywhere else, I'll just write them off as something I can't get, and just be outright frustrated with the development choice, but it won't be the end of the world. In the end, it'll just be a costume set I refuse to buy because of the bundled stuff for an indeterminate price from the 'random drop' element.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvorine View Post
^^^^^
This sums up my thoughts pretty much completely. I hated it when CCGs did it, and I hate it more in the MMO I love to play enough that I pay to subscribe to it (which, for me - regardless of subscription price - is a Huge deal).
This. We don't want our beloved game to emulate Collectible Card Games. It is a huge deal because of how it makes the playerbase feel.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
The new news is good, but it's still not solving the "exclusive costumes" problem. Until that is, it's like one of those mathematical limit things (yeah, I'm a language guy, not a math guy, so sue me). It can approach "good", but never hit it.
2 things. one, yeah costumes are my main concern as well, the atio thing was good and makes me feel confident we wont have to go to a nuclear option with this, but still holding out till we see. i expect to give something on this, a higher cost than standard packs is an option, one i'd consider a worse outcome. a slight delay of a month or 2 would be a better result in my mind. and two, i think the word you want is asymptote.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Party_Kake View Post
The number of people who will actually quit being customers over this is a HUGE part of your argument even if you dismiss it. And denying that does not help you.
You are still misunderstanding me. I'm not making an argument about the amount of money that Super Packs will make, at all. All I was trying to do was help Void Huntress understand other peoples' perspectives. She said someone's statement perplexed her, and I tried to help explain it. I'm not arguing with anyone.

Also, to Void Huntress, I forgot to respond to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
Notably, we're still not talking about gambling. You can only call it gambling if there's a chance of not getting your 80 points worth. Unless you are prepared to argue that only your favored included item of choice has any value at all, (which is a bit of a hard sell since we know that 'people' as a set value many of the things in the Packs already extant), then the packs as presented are guaranteed to give at least what you put into it. It may have unpredictable distributions, but that's not the same thing as gambling.

They're (very well-stocked) grab bags, not lotteries, not slot machines.
Just FYI, at the Player Summit, during the Market panel when Super Packs were announced, Positron said that he wanted us to "keep pulling that lever". The lead developer thinks they are comparable to slot machines.

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