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While I understand and accept everything else you've said in this post about Wormhole's KB, please hear us when we say that the environment is not always conducive to containing scatter (as pointed out in #3 of teflonshugenja's post). If you happen to be near a corner, it's fantastic, but corners actually aren't that common. Some maps don't have any corners (like one of the outdoor forest maps). When you do have a corner, there may be environment objects that foes will get stuck in/on if they get KBed into them (such as the shelves and boxes in Warehouses, rocks and walls in caves, or trees in forest maps), making them difficult to get to, or in some cases, even making the mission uncompletable. If you're not near a corner, you're going to spread them out, even if you aim them at a wall, due to how ragdolling foes slide around. And you won't always even have walls, unless you want to move the the spawn that your teammates are fighting across the room. |
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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I love Wormhole. It's the most fun power in the set. But I've gotten requests not to use it so much due to the scatter that my Grav feels sub-par compared to other control sets that have a secondary control without KB. Every other set has a secondary control that can be used every spawn.
I accept your decision. I know the scatter issue is just a natural consequence of having the game so heavily favor AoE attacks/buffs/debuffs/controls/etc., I realize that there is little you can do about it without effectively removing AoE KB from the game, and I know you don't want to do that. I'm only making this post because as someone with lots of experience with Wormhole, I don't feel that the KB is always easy to contain by the environment. It's not even often easy. I want to make sure that you know that if you're balancing powers while taking into account assumptions about the environment.
That being said, all of the Gravity changes look awesome. I'm still very unlikely to take a foe-intangibility power, but at least it looks to be as controllable as possible. Thanks so much for looking at this set, it's my favorite control set, conceptually.
Edit: I second teflonshugenja's request to move the -KB into Crushing Field. I'd be willing to accept the aggro as a consequence if I had the option to not scatter on teams.
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These changes are big improvements. Two things:
1) I still won't use Dim Shift on a team. Maybe while solo. At least then I can know the targets i've phased. But on a team you'll never get your teammates to realize who's targetable and who's not. They just end up wasting attacks. Sometimes expensive ones. Also, the intangible enhancers still don't make sense to me.
2) Please dimension shift DS to lvl 26 and WH to lvl 12. This would give grav an every fight AoE control by the early levels like all the other control sets. DS, even as a toggle, is NOT an every fight control. It's an 'oh crap' power. Just like Black Hole in Dark Miasma, which is a tier 8 power.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Adding -Knockback to Crushing Field would mess up one of my favorite things about my Grav/Storm controller -- Freezing Rain+Crushing Field as a knockdown field.|
Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
Well, I'd argue that dropping enemies into a Dimension Shift is at least as synergistic as hurling them into it (and maybe moreso, since with Wormhole's current KB magnitude it's entirely likely that you would hurl them clean through the DShift and right out the other end).
But if this is going to be the case, can I offer a different suggestion? Move the -kb from Gravity Distortion Field into Crushing Field instead, making it consistent with the AoE Immobilizes from other sets. That way the Gravity player has the option, at least, of opening with CF and then using Wormhole to stun/relocate them if they wish to negate the scatter, rather than being at the mercy of terrain to do so. Note that this obviously means that you don't get to initiate with Wormhole and must therefore expose yourself to counterattack in order to do so. EDIT: Obviously I still think that just changing the knockback to knockdown is a better idea. It's simpler, almost certainly takes less effort, and doesn't muck with other powers or with mechanics like Impact. What it really comes down to for me is the idea that the primary control power in the set should not leave the player at the mercy of terrain features to manage what is almost universally considered an extremely detrimental side effect. This is the bread-and-butter control power in Gravity. Not using it cripples the set. I shouldn't have misgivings about using it on an open map, and I shouldn't have to leave myself open to scathing criticisms from justifiably irritated teammates when I do so. |
While these changes are very welcome, I must admit that Wormhole would be far more useful if the Knockback were changed to Knockdown.
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Quote:
Making DSed targets untargetable creates a problem. When you shift yourself via powers like Phase Shift or Ethereal Shift, you are able to affect the enemies and vice versa. If you made them untargetable, that would cause trouble for anyone trying to utilize this mechanic.|
Originally Posted by CormanStark
Dimension Shift - The toggle helps, but whatever benefit is gained by taking the mobs out of the fight is largely negated by teammates wasting attacks by trying (and failing) to take them down. Single biggest help? Make DS'ed enemies untargetable! It would be nice if you could make the status aura unmistakable, but when scrapperlock or blaster ????* is in full swing, people are just tabbing the targetting block and trying to mow down the baddies.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Right now we're not planning on changing the knockback to knockdown in Wormhole. The KB actually synergizes really well with the new Dimension Shift, since you can grab a bunch of enemies and throw them into your Shift's sphere. I also just think the power feels/looks a lot cooler as "throwing enemies around with gravity" rather than "dropping enemies somewhere else with teleport", which keeps it much more in Gravity's kit. The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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Actually I'm pretty glad that the devs still care about the game looking and feeling cool! They've done an excellent job of continuing that lately so removing unique effects would be quite the backwards leap. The change to wormhole's aggro is enormous and is exactly the buff gravity control needed to become competitive. All the other buffs are gravy. Eat your buffs 'n gravy secure in the knowledge that right now gravity is some thin gruel.
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Originally Posted by ketch
First, "feels/looks a lot cooler" isn't a balance concern and it's a bit disconcerting that it's given weight in this matter. Secondly, the KB only decreases the synergy Wormhole may have with the new DS by making it more unwieldy as a positioning tool. Of course, this has been an issue with Wormhole all along. It fulfills its role as a mez, but is cumbersome, even detrimental, as a positioning tool. While players have compensated for WH's knockback with environment, it still leaves the problem of unsuitable environments and enemy groups that have varying levels of knockback protection in their ranks.
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The day I'm universally considered a detriment for using knockback on teams is probably the day I go looking for a game with a saner playerbase. However, on a scale from one to a hundred, where one represents minimal complaint and a hundred represents universal complaints about knockback, I am currently safely experiencing a zero.|
Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
EDIT: Obviously I still think that just changing the knockback to knockdown is a better idea. It's simpler, almost certainly takes less effort, and doesn't muck with other powers or with mechanics like Impact. What it really comes down to for me is the idea that the primary control power in the set should not leave the player at the mercy of terrain features to manage what is almost universally considered an extremely detrimental side effect. This is the bread-and-butter control power in Gravity. Not using it cripples the set. I shouldn't have misgivings about using it on an open map, and I shouldn't have to leave myself open to scathing criticisms from justifiably irritated teammates when I do so.
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These changes do come along right as I've started leveling a Grav/Time controller (because gravity/time, just gotta). It'll be interesting to see how these changes affect my ability to deploy everything in my arsenal, because I always try to.
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Intangible enhancements... yeah. Part of the problem is that they only enhanced the intangible portion of the power, meaning enemies would break free of the immobilize and start moving around before DS even ended. When they changed DS to a phase, things became even more convoluted as the phase, intangibility, and immobilize rarely seemed to align well.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
1) I still won't use Dim Shift on a team. Maybe while solo. At least then I can know the targets i've phased. But on a team you'll never get your teammates to realize who's targetable and who's not. They just end up wasting attacks. Sometimes expensive ones. Also, the intangible enhancers still don't make sense to me.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Actually I'm pretty glad that the devs still care about the game looking and feeling cool! They've done an excellent job of continuing that lately so removing unique effects would be quite the backwards leap. The change to wormhole's aggro is enormous and is exactly the buff gravity control needed to become competitive. All the other buffs are gravy. Eat your buffs 'n gravy secure in the knowledge that right now gravity is some thin gruel.
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All in all I'm quite happy that additional changes are being made to Gravity, but I've got to take exception with the bolded part.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Right now we're not planning on changing the knockback to knockdown in Wormhole. The KB actually synergizes really well with the new Dimension Shift, since you can grab a bunch of enemies and throw them into your Shift's sphere. I also just think the power feels/looks a lot cooler as "throwing enemies around with gravity" rather than "dropping enemies somewhere else with teleport", which keeps it much more in Gravity's kit. The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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The knockback is absolutely irrelevant to the synergy between Wormhole and Dimension Shift, and in fact can be anti-synergistic.
The teleport aspect of wormhole alone allows you to drop groups of mobs into your active dimension shift, no KB at all required. The knock effect actually makes it MORE difficult to ensure that mobs end up inside of Dimension Shift, because it makes it harder to tell exactly where they're going to end up.
Honestly, I've said it many times before, I wholeheartedly believe that knockDOWN would still be enough to maintain the "feel" of Wormhole, without hampering it's use as the PRIMARY control power for the set.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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I have to agree with this. I try to stay away from knock back vs knock down debates because that just makes Gravity discussion even more blur. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
The teleport aspect of wormhole alone allows you to drop groups of mobs into your active dimension shift, no KB at all required. The knock effect actually makes it MORE difficult to ensure that mobs end up inside of Dimension Shift, because it makes it harder to tell exactly where they're going to end up.
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I don't think knock back makes positioning mobs into Dimension Shift easier. I think it's harder. We can easily drop that "white circle" into the Shifted area and the mobs will appear there. The current knock back has this unpredictable nature. Sometimes it spits out completely scattered and sometimes all the foes fall into similar area.
I do agree the "spitting out" part is fun to watch and it's thematic. Again, some people love knock back and some people just hate it. I am neutral.
I am just glad Wormhole will be 20' radius + no aggro before teleporting.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Wasn't trying to say that the presence of knockback alone makes the player's contribution to a team negative, only that the inclusion of knockback in Wormhole is almost exclusively a detriment to the power. When I want to use Wormhole, I'm thinking "awesome, I get to reposition and stun these enemies!" I'm never thinking "awesome, I get to send these enemies flying every which-way" because that part of the power really doesn't help. It frequently (read: almost always) gets in the way and makes using the power more difficult. Sorry if I was unclear.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The day I'm universally considered a detriment for using knockback on teams is probably the day I go looking for a game with a saner playerbase.
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I realize that knockback is supposed to be cool and nifty and useful. I know that the dev team doesn't want to give up on that, so they're reluctant to just remove it from powers. I get that. But this is one case where it really needs to happen, because it works directly counter to the clearly-recognized purpose of an AoE control - Wormhole's knockback not only creates a less-controlled situation, it makes it more difficult for that same player to exert effective control after it is used. Now that is insane.
I'm all for standing on principle, but in this case it's the wrong thing to do.
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I'm a bit confused with this. Dimension Shift currently is a 30 second duration and the intent is to make a 20 second toggle giving the player a bit more control over the duration. |
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Hey all,
Dimension Shift:
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The problem as I see it is not the duration. It's the fact that you have phased mobs in a game that just sadly does not need phased mobs.
I might understand the use of the phasing in a SF like Barracuda at the end when you get wave after wave of 5th Column that some teams can't handle. But beyond that I just don't see someone having to phase mobs for 20 seconds in a group setting. Again its a great "Oh this don't look good" let me hit D.S., but on a regular game play I think this power will be of very limited use like Force Bubble.
Again I just don't know, I' m not feeling this. I just never thought to myself man I wish someone would phase shift these mobs. AOE HOLD yes.. Phase shift no..
I think this is just a band aid to a bigger problem. I believe the Devs have to realize that this game today is beyond phase shift. You have placed in too many powers that can kill mobs way to fast that you would need to consider or worry about phase shifting mobs. I honestly cannot think of a SF or TF at level 50 that less then 4 players is NOT incarnate shifted and has a Judgement power. Level 1 to 49 a team might and I mean, barely might need phase shifting powers. But being on the low end of the gaming totem pole and being a PuG player for 6 years, I just never had an issue on a PuG that I thought Dimension Shift would have helped fix.
I would rather see some sort of Telekinesis type hold / slow that cost more endurance for each mobs that comes into the field. Have something that is so massive but its the only thing the player could do if he wanted. Something that other players would go holy cow he can hold 30 mobs but cannot fight without killing his endurance.
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I agree that Dimension Shift will probably still be limited to a panic button. It simply doesn't match the pace of the game very well. Making it into a toggle is a huge shift in usability, but it really needs to go a step further. In my opinion it needs to also phase allies that enter the area of DS so they can continue to combat enemies.
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With most enemy phase powers intangibility enhancements increase magnitude, not duration. Slotting Intangibility allows the power to affect higher rank critters. IIRC Detention Field can even be used to phase AVs after slotting for it. Is Dimension Shift different?
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Originally Posted by ketch
Intangible enhancements... yeah. Part of the problem is that they only enhanced the intangible portion of the power, meaning enemies would break free of the immobilize and start moving around before DS even ended. When they changed DS to a phase, things became even more convoluted as the phase, intangibility, and immobilize rarely seemed to align well.
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Looking at City of Data, (Controller) Detention field is mag7.45, Dimension Shift is mag3. So it's not looking like DS will be very effective against AVs.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
With most enemy phase powers intangibility enhancements increase magnitude, not duration. Slotting Intangibility allows the power to affect higher rank critters. IIRC Detention Field can even be used to phase AVs after slotting for it. Is Dimension Shift different?
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@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Still not touching gravity till Dimensions shift and wormhole swap levels. There is no reason not to do this, the 5 people in game who actually took dimension shift at level 12 will just have to suck it up since this change would be for making the set alot better. 26 levels is still too long for anyone to go without a real aoe control that not on a stupidly long timer. Even changing Dimension shift people are not going to take this power.
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I'm not positive about this, but I seem to recall that enhancing a Phase power with Intangibility enhancements increases the MAG. It does not increase the duration. So if you slot Dimension Shift with Intang, it might be able to do more.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Looking at City of Data, (Controller) Detention field is mag7.45, Dimension Shift is mag3. So it's not looking like DS will be very effective against AVs.
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Quote:
In my experience, the reason the kb is unpredictable is due to the mobs' movement at the time of the teleport. Whatever direction they were moving in when you picked them up is the same direction they're heading when they come out. Combine that with the kb direction you're pointed at with your reticle position and you can get chaos. However, this directional stumbling is the same exact effect with flashfire and stalagmites. Mobs that were running toward you keep on going, but stumbling in a drunken stuppor. Difference is no added kb.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I have to agree with this. I try to stay away from knock back vs knock down debates because that just makes Gravity discussion even more blur.
I don't think knock back makes positioning mobs into Dimension Shift easier. I think it's harder. We can easily drop that "white circle" into the Shifted area and the mobs will appear there. The current knock back has this unpredictable nature. Sometimes it spits out completely scattered and sometimes all the foes fall into similar area. I do agree the "spitting out" part is fun to watch and it's thematic. Again, some people love knock back and some people just hate it. I am neutral. I am just glad Wormhole will be 20' radius + no aggro before teleporting. |
Now consider the new WH won't cause aggro. That means the mobs wont' be running toward you at least when the tp hits them. So stagnant mobs should remain still. Although you're positioning of the landing site relative to your own position will still matter.
The end result I can foresee is less scatter. Of course this will have to be tested.
Please buff Ice Control.
Hmmm.... a toggle intangibility seems like it will be similar to mass hypnosis on steroids. Many decry that power as pointless and such, but almost every indoor map has a point where more than one spawn is created next to each other. With a toggle phase, you can toggle the side group if it aggros, wait until the first group is thinned, then have at the before phased group. This is identical to mass hypnosis' use, where you sleep the side group until ready for them. With sleep, you attack when ready to kill them. With phase, you had to either (a) wait for them, or (b) be surprised when they were suddenly no longer harmless. With a toggle, no surprises, and you can 'release' them when ready. I'm not seeing a downside.
And I do think I recall phasing enhancements increasing mag, so they might actually get some use. I am very much looking forward to making a new gravity character or two, when this hits testing...
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A toggle phase certainly has more utility than a click version. However, I'm still not sold on it's lvl 12 position as a bread and butter control like all the other sets have. It's just not that kind of power. Oh, ****. Yes. Oh, yeah. No.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Hmmm.... a toggle intangibility seems like it will be similar to mass hypnosis on steroids. Many decry that power as pointless and such, but almost every indoor map has a point where more than one spawn is created next to each other. With a toggle phase, you can toggle the side group if it aggros, wait until the first group is thinned, then have at the before phased group. This is identical to mass hypnosis' use, where you sleep the side group until ready for them. With sleep, you attack when ready to kill them. With phase, you had to either (a) wait for them, or (b) be surprised when they were suddenly no longer harmless. With a toggle, no surprises, and you can 'release' them when ready. I'm not seeing a downside.
And I do think I recall phasing enhancements increasing mag, so they might actually get some use. I am very much looking forward to making a new gravity character or two, when this hits testing... |
If it were swapped with WH, then those folks who wanted to play with it could experiment away without worrying about several levels of minimal control the way gravity is now. As is, the first realy AoE you get is GDF and that takes 5 slots to be good, so mid-20s. Then, you have to wait til late 20s for WH to get 5 slotted. Then mid 30s for singy. So you're talking more than half your career before you can mount the same level of AoE control that every other control set can manage by their late teens.
DS is not an every spawn power, solo or teamed. The only thing it will allow you to do is to effectively ghost a mission by phasing mobs in your way. And doing that would be some slow leveling as you skip all that defeat xp. So that positions it firmly as a once in a great while power. For a lvl 12 aoe control that's unacceptable.
I'd hate for the devs to go to all this trouble to fix gravity and miss the most glaring problem it has. Why bother messing with DS when nobody is going to take it at 12 anyway? As I recall, it's already handicapped with an accuracy penalty and a low mag (no bosses?).
Please buff Ice Control.
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I can see a few situational uses. One that comes to mind is placing a "don't bother me" field to click the rubble piles while speedrunning SSA#1 on a character without enough defense to simply ignore the incoming waves.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I agree that Dimension Shift will probably still be limited to a panic button. It simply doesn't match the pace of the game very well. Making it into a toggle is a huge shift in usability, but it really needs to go a step further. In my opinion it needs to also phase allies that enter the area of DS so they can continue to combat enemies.
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But yeah, still a very skippable power.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I'm not positive about this, but I seem to recall that enhancing a Phase power with Intangibility enhancements increases the MAG. It does not increase the duration. So if you slot Dimension Shift with Intang, it might be able to do more.
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TBH I'm not sure how that really works in practice on AVs anyway, since by its nature they can't have any inherent Phase protection or resistance (but they DO have mag 4 intangible protection). Trial bosses do have a phase protection of sorts... they get a power that applies a mag 1000 phase effect that forces them into the correct phase. Which is apparently "LordWinter"... not gonna ask. Oddly they don't seem to get any extra Intangible protection that I can see.
TL;DR: what happens when an enemy is phased but not intangible, or vice versa?
On the bright side, at least on the AVs I checked, the PToD don't give any extra intangible protection.
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Yes, it is very different. Dimension Shift is, and has been for a while, a phase power which has no magnitude. It works even on Giant Monsters though some of the visual effects don't kick in because they are tied to the old Intangibility. Detention Field and Sonic Cage are Affect Only Self/Untouchable and cannot be slotted for Intangiblity, but can have their magnitude increased by Hami-Os that affect mezzes. Because the Intangibility enhancements enhance the old effect of Intangibility and not Phase, they have virtually no effect at all. I brought this up about two years ago, but so very few people used or cared about the power that no one else bothered to address or confirm what I had observed.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
With most enemy phase powers intangibility enhancements increase magnitude, not duration. Slotting Intangibility allows the power to affect higher rank critters. IIRC Detention Field can even be used to phase AVs after slotting for it. Is Dimension Shift different?
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Just for a bit of clarity for anyone that skims that thread, at the time I believed DS was working with Affect Only Self/Untouchable. Only later did I realize it was true phase, allowing for such things as DSing a crowd then using Phase Shift or Ethereal Shift to combat them for a few moments more.
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Any possibility of a toggle simlilar to Dual Pistols Swap Ammo that allows the user to control whether or not they want knockback?|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Right now we're not planning on changing the knockback to knockdown in Wormhole. The KB actually synergizes really well with the new Dimension Shift, since you can grab a bunch of enemies and throw them into your Shift's sphere. I also just think the power feels/looks a lot cooler as "throwing enemies around with gravity" rather than "dropping enemies somewhere else with teleport", which keeps it much more in Gravity's kit. The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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The power could have a flag set to apply a higher mag of knockback if the user had the (insert clever name here) toggle set. Because, of course, given that the user is 'in control' of the gravity they are using, it seems likely they would be able to control how hard they set something down as well.
I understand that side of the arguement, but from a players perspective, being able to control whether or not one flings mobs in a giant scatter versus setting them down in a nice pack (on the Stone Tank, for example) adds a lot of utility. An 18 second stun versus +4s really doesn't last very long when you reduce it's duration by the level modifier and thus scattering might 'increase the danger' to the team rather than decrease it (if, for example, the tank merely taunted them). If you provide the utility of being able to 'set them down roughly' ala knockdown, you give the power the best of both worlds.
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Let me sum up the effects of these changes for Dominators:
>Wormhole is mostly fixed. Still suffers from long casting time.
That is all.
Impact sucks, I very much doubt Propel will be worth using over your entire secondary, and Dimension Shift is still worthless. There is absolutely NO value in wormholing an entire spawn into dimension shift because hey all that means is that instead of missing half the spawn with your AoEs, you miss the entire spawn.
thx for the effort at least 
I say this as someone who loves knockback:
Add me to the list of people requesting a 0.67 KB on Wormhole. I like that the power lets me position mobs where I want them, but the KB is so large and uncontrollable it is very hard to position them right. Teleporting through a wormhole and falling to their feet still preserves the theme.
If Gravity had another basic AoE control to rely on the it would be fine, but this is the only one.
But if this is going to be the case, can I offer a different suggestion? Move the -kb from Gravity Distortion Field into Crushing Field instead, making it consistent with the AoE Immobilizes from other sets. That way the Gravity player has the option, at least, of opening with CF and then using Wormhole to stun/relocate them if they wish to negate the scatter, rather than being at the mercy of terrain to do so. Note that this obviously means that you don't get to initiate with Wormhole and must therefore expose yourself to counterattack in order to do so.
EDIT: Obviously I still think that just changing the knockback to knockdown is a better idea. It's simpler, almost certainly takes less effort, and doesn't muck with other powers or with mechanics like Impact. What it really comes down to for me is the idea that the primary control power in the set should not leave the player at the mercy of terrain features to manage what is almost universally considered an extremely detrimental side effect. This is the bread-and-butter control power in Gravity. Not using it cripples the set. I shouldn't have misgivings about using it on an open map, and I shouldn't have to leave myself open to scathing criticisms from justifiably irritated teammates when I do so.