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True, but how many hard controls are 20 seconds long without slotting and autohit on top of it?
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
It could be. But my point about DS has always been if you replaced it with any other hard AoE control wouldn't it be better than DS because your team can still damage the targets rather than wasting attacks on phased enemies?
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It's definitely not autohit. When I did my testing vs. Eochai I saw several hit rolls in my pet channel, and some of them missed. It looks like the pulses have a normal hit chance, and if they miss a target it'll unphase until the next pulse (approx 1.75 seconds later).|
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
True, but how many hard controls are 20 seconds long without slotting and autohit on top of it?
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So better slot for accuracy still...
Not autohit at all. That was one of the 'features' some folks said as a good use forDS (don't slot accuracy so it missed half the mobs and you'd get mitigation but still have targets to dmg).
Please buff Ice Control.
In actual testing I'm afraid to say it, but I think the new DS may actually be worse than the old one. Enemies flicker between phases fast enough that queuing up a power on an unphased mob in its field seems waste of time.
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Who in the world wipes at ITF or has issue with any of the respec waves now a days. Especially the respec waves that are so far apart from each other. I just did a respec today ( its the weekly ) 6 players where in SOs. The waves were so far apart we started pulling the mobs from the hallway into the reactor just to do something. |
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
As for the changes? Yes- my first thoughts were as Hawk pointed out, denial of doorways etc. To use my previous example, an ITF. The First mission, the ambushes at the Oracle come primarily from one direction.. they can now be stopped to allow the team to try and complete the mission without getting wiped. Same goes for the Clyclops/Minotaur ambushes in the 2nd mission. Anothere idea I had was the Hero Respecs.. Dropping DS Right AT the reactor for the last few waves...
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I get what your trying to say but I think your reaching to make a point on how good this is.
Again I never wished for a phase shift power ever in this game and I have pugged in this game for 6 years. I know and understand I do not have to pick the power or the set. I am just commenting nonetheless.
Its a change but its not better, just less sucky..
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
The game is really neither difficult nor complicated enough to warrant an AoE phase shifting power. All it can do is split up a larger mob into two, more manageable chunks, and there are two problems with this:
1) If you find yourself doing that on a regular basis, just turn down the difficulty from x8 to x4. There you go, spawns are now halved by default and you complete missions faster.
2) AoE immobilizes are already FANTASTIC at splitting up mobs. Hell, Gravity is already the best at splitting up mobs because you can go AoE Immobilize + Wormhole.
I suppose there are some cute tricks like dropping it under the blaster to save them from melee attacks, but, uh, AoE immobilize does a pretty good job of that, too.
Besides I get enough flak on teams for using the AoE immobilize so that the mobs don't group up as tightly as they possibly can (sigh)... I still think any fleeting tactical advantage that Dimension Shift is going to give you is going to be outweighed by the time it takes to explain what you just did + the time dealing with people who are angry at you for using it.
New Dimension Shift is not that bad. It has some issues still but isn't nearly as awful as it was.
Prime way to use it: play from range, cast it at yourself and anything that runs up to greet you can't hit you.
I think it should have a 45 second duration instead of 20 though.
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i told you so
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Originally Posted by ketch
In actual testing I'm afraid to say it, but I think the new DS may actually be worse than the old one. Enemies flicker between phases fast enough that queuing up a power on an unphased mob in its field seems waste of time.
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And yet it's not terrible because it's a gimmick as you said. It's terrible because it's not functioning as it should, i.e. mobs are not being immobilized in the field.
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Originally Posted by recalx
i told you so
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The scary thing to me is the mag. If only minions are phased and there's an accuracy, how useful is it? Any higher rank mobs go through it. Anyone you miss goes through it. Anyone that has immobilize resist goes through it. It's not a lock down control power by any means.|
Originally Posted by ketch
And yet it's not terrible because it's a gimmick as you said. It's terrible because it's not functioning as it should, i.e. mobs are not being immobilized in the field.
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Only difference now is you can shut it off when your teammates are chewing you a new one for even turning it on in the first place.
Thank god Wormhole is better.
At this point, the grav tweaks can be summarized as:
Impact encourages me to use my ST controls on a single target, increasing my damage but lowering my control ability. Dim Shift is still not useful as a control power outside of 'oh crap' and citing the problems above, I'm not sure even that is correct. Wormhole is greatly improved. Grav control still has anemic early level AoE control.
Overall improvement on a scale of 1-10, I'm giving it a 4. I still have to wait 26+ levels for AoE control. I'm not benefiting much from Impact. I'm not using DS.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Here's the problem: nearly everything is getting phased, but the visual effects don't always apply. I noted it in the feedback thread (tested against DE GMs in the northern part of PI and various bosses, lieutenants, and minions in PI). Codewalker noted it phasing Eochai.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
The scary thing to me is the mag. If only minions are phased and there's an accuracy, how useful is it?
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| Any higher rank mobs go through it. Anyone you miss goes through it. Anyone that has immobilize resist goes through it. It's not a lock down control power by any means. |
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| Only difference now is you can shut it off when your teammates are chewing you a new one for even turning it on in the first place. |
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Thank god Wormhole is better. At this point, the grav tweaks can be summarized as: Impact encourages me to use my ST controls on a single target, increasing my damage but lowering my control ability. Dim Shift is still not useful as a control power outside of 'oh crap' and citing the problems above, I'm not sure even that is correct. Wormhole is greatly improved. Grav control still has anemic early level AoE control. Overall improvement on a scale of 1-10, I'm giving it a 4. I still have to wait 26+ levels for AoE control. I'm not benefiting much from Impact. I'm not using DS. |
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The underlined part is not true. I tested it, and was able to phase a Giant Monster with Dimension Shift. The mag 3 intangible didn't affect it, which meant that it didn't get the visual effect, the "Dimension Shift" orange text, or the hint to the AI that it couldn't attack me. But when it tried, it did no damage and was not able to affect me.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
The scary thing to me is the mag. If only minions are phased and there's an accuracy, how useful is it? Any higher rank mobs go through it. Anyone you miss goes through it. Anyone that has immobilize resist goes through it. It's not a lock down control power by any means.
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Nothing except for trial bosses and a few objects with special-case powers has any phase protection whatsoever.
The problem of course is that Eochai also wasn't affected by the immobilize, and happily waltzed right through the field and after me.
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Haha, you beat me to it. |
Originally Posted by ketch
At even level, it will be able to keep minions and lieutenants in its area of effect. At +3 lieutenants will be able to walk out of it, not to mention the many mobs that have some degree of immobilize protection (Banes, Warwolves, Cims via Shout of Command).
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At the very least it needs a slow component in the AoE to keep bosses from simply walking right out of it. Even that is problematic when it comes to Warwolves that are nigh immune to both slows and immobilize.
Synapse, instead of a pseudopet, have you tried a toggle that grants a power to enemies which causes them to phase/intangible themselves? The activation period and grant power effect would need to have a duration longer than the maximum amount of time the toggle can stay on. I think it should work (i.e. the power gets revoked when the toggle drops), but of course can't promise that and it would require testing.
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Wow that power has me totally confused now. I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly what it does, how it works and what the intangible enhancements do to it, if anything.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The underlined part is not true. I tested it, and was able to phase a Giant Monster with Dimension Shift. The mag 3 intangible didn't affect it, which meant that it didn't get the visual effect, the "Dimension Shift" orange text, or the hint to the AI that it couldn't attack me. But when it tried, it did no damage and was not able to affect me.
Nothing except for trial bosses and a few objects with special-case powers has any phase protection whatsoever. The problem of course is that Eochai also wasn't affected by the immobilize, and happily waltzed right through the field and after me. |
Combine that with immob resists and poor fx, I think we're at a point of just flushing this turd rather than wasting more time on making it work. Seriously, the amount of effort that's going in to make it functional when it's still just a situational power is wasted. That same time could be spent making something new that everyone would appreciate. At the very least, switch its position with the improved WH and let whoever wants to waste a pick on it take it at 26.
Please buff Ice Control.
Nice to know that it's still not worth taking. Now if only the devs would realise that too instead of wasting money and manpower on it. It's like trying to stop a knife wound from bleeding by using a band-aid - it won't work, it'll be messy and it'll still end up with same conclusion.
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Welcome to Beta.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Wow that power has me totally confused now. I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly what it does, how it works and what the intangible enhancements do to it, if anything.
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Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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I hope I can clarify your understanding a little bit. I'm going to gloss over Phase because honestly there's a lot I don't know about it yet. It's used in a lot of different applications ingame (Dimension Shift, the Shadowed Paths, the new AP/Mercy mishes, and Praetoria contacts) and there are far more states than simply phased or unphased. Getting back to Dimension Shift, let's look at it in four parts:|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Wow that power has me totally confused now. I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly what it does, how it works and what the intangible enhancements do to it, if anything.
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Part 1: Phase
DS hits the target with a Phase forcing them into the state Phased/NoPrime. This means they can be affected by other entities also in the Phased state and cannot affect entities in the unphased (Prime) state. This portion of the power affects almost every target from minions to GMs because there is no protection/resistance to Phased/NoPrime except in special cases where it is granted by a power.
Phase 2: Threat Reduction
Pretty simple explanation here. It reduces the threat level of the target if DS hits it. I believe this is intended to prevent/reduce pets from attacking DSed targets.
Part 3: Immobilize
DS should apply a mag 3 immobilize. However, unlike most immobilizes, the duration of this power is static; it cannot be enhanced or resisted. Because of the way the engine operates, the immobilize's magnitude must then be variable. That means slotting an Endoplasm Exposure will increase its magnitude (along with the magnitude of the Intangible). It also means level scaling will apply to the magnitude. For example, against a +3 the base magnitude is only 48% effective, resulting in a magnitude 1.44 mag immobilize, not enough to immobilize a +3 lieutenant.
Part 3: Intangibility
To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, the intangibility applies the translucent visuals and removes the collision box (making it possible to pass through the affected entity). It does not prevent the enemy from affecting you; that is handled by the Phase portion of DS. The Intangible is flagged in the same manner as the immobilize: enhanceable, resistable magnitude. Because it is only mag 3, this means, against an even level boss, the translucency and collision box removal are not applying unless you slot for Intangible enhancement. Unslotted you will see this effects working on a -1 boss.
Confusion is arising because almost all enemies are being Phased, but not all are having the Intangible (translucency, walk-through) applied. So here's some scenarios to help understand what's happening. (Forgot to mention this is without slotting Intangible enhancements.)
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Even level enemy (applying mag 3 intangible/immobilize) GM AV EB Boss LT. Min. Is it affected phased? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Threat reduced? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Is it affected by immobilize? No No No No Yes Yes Is it affected by Intangible*? No No No No Yes Yes +3 level enemy (Mag 3 intangible/immobilize resisted to 1.95 by level scaling) GM AV EB Boss LT. Min. Is it affected phased? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Threat reduced? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Is it affected by immobilize? No No No No No Yes Is it affected by Intangible*? No No No No No Yes +5 level enemy (Mag 3 intangible/immobilize resisted to .9 by level scaling) GM AV EB Boss LT. Min. Is it affected phased? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Threat reduced? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Is it affected by immobilize? No No No No No No Is it affected by Intangible*? No No No No No No -1 level enemy (Mag 4 intangible/immobilize due to level scaling) GM AV EB Boss LT. Min. Is it affected phased? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Threat reduced? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Is it affected by immobilize? No Yes**No Yes Yes Yes Is it affected by Intangible*? No Yes**No Yes Yes Yes *Intangible only in translucent/walk-through. **Only during periods while PTOD is down.
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| Combine that with immob resists and poor fx, I think we're at a point of just flushing this turd rather than wasting more time on making it work. Seriously, the amount of effort that's going in to make it functional when it's still just a situational power is wasted. That same time could be spent making something new that everyone would appreciate. At the very least, switch its position with the improved WH and let whoever wants to waste a pick on it take it at 26. |
I started a thread in the general powers folder in the hopes of attracting an Arcanaville, but has anyone calculated new-Gravity's damage to determine if sets like Fire Assault actually benefit from picking up Propel and/or Lift? Gravity Distortion itself is slower than many of the Fire Assault attacks, and GD + Propel almost a full second slower than two similar blasts from Fire Assault. Is it worth it?
FWIW I am trying to convince the powers that be that either Propel or Lift needs an AoE knockdown/up associated with it. Gravity's Control is IMO still too light.
Unrelated note: is Wormhole now completely aggro free, like, say, Mass Hypnosis? Is it possible to invisibly grab half a spawn? That is what it sounded like from other posts and not what I was expecting, but will be very excited to try if that is indeed how it will work. If Gravity's lower level control hole were fixed with some kind of knockdown, and the damage factor justified, I feel the set will have greatly improved.
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I'm 95% sure it is aggro-free. In the demos I recorded, I saw one instance of aggro before the tp/stun and that could be from the guy I missed and because I was in visual aggro range.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I started a thread in the general powers folder in the hopes of attracting an Arcanaville, but has anyone calculated new-Gravity's damage to determine if sets like Fire Assault actually benefit from picking up Propel and/or Lift? Gravity Distortion itself is slower than many of the Fire Assault attacks, and GD + Propel almost a full second slower than two similar blasts from Fire Assault. Is it worth it?
FWIW I am trying to convince the powers that be that either Propel or Lift needs an AoE knockdown/up associated with it. Gravity's Control is IMO still too light. Unrelated note: is Wormhole now completely aggro free, like, say, Mass Hypnosis? Is it possible to invisibly grab half a spawn? That is what it sounded like from other posts and not what I was expecting, but will be very excited to try if that is indeed how it will work. If Gravity's lower level control hole were fixed with some kind of knockdown, and the damage factor justified, I feel the set will have greatly improved. |
I would totally support an AoE Lift. Lower the damage to pre-buff levels and increase rech and end cost. Move it to around lvl 8.
1 Crush
1 GD
2 Modified Propel
6 CF
8 AoE Lift
12 Modified Wormhole
18 GDF
26 Modified Dim Shift
32 Modified Singy
That would be the order I'd use.
Now you'd have a great set with early AoE control with immob, knockup and stun. Dim Shift could be taken or left at 26 without creating a control gap. You'd have more dmg output with Impact and faster Propel and Singy.
Please buff Ice Control.
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I support this product or service.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
1 Crush
1 GD 2 Modified Propel 6 CF 8 AoE Lift 12 Modified Wormhole 18 GDF 26 Modified Dim Shift 32 Modified Singy |
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Yay I was wrong but not anymore! It is autohit!|
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
True, but how many hard controls are 20 seconds long without slotting and autohit on top of it?
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(The new version of Dim Shift seemed like it should be autohit, a la Disruption arrow, so I assumed it was)
I can also see it as a useful way to deal with over-aggro and ambushes.
Please buff Ice Control.