A Dimension Shift that phases allies and enemies alike would be very cool, but...
I just did a little testing with my Warshade and the Blue Wisp pet. It seems that when the user phases (using Nebulous Form), toggled pets (Blue Wisp in this case) phase as well. I am conjecturing that Dimension Shift will use some sort of toggle pseudo-pet. In which, case if the owner entered the shifted area he would be phased and the pet along with it, no longer affecting unphased enemies. This may also spell problems for anyone trying to use Dimension Shift in conjunction with any of the self-phasing powers. All just conjecture at this point though...
I do look forward to testing these changes and some of the unusual situations that may crop up.
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I think this needs to be tested with the aggro-free WH, though. As I said in an earlier post, it seems a lot of scatter is caused by mobs motion prior to the teleport hitting them. This movement gives them momentum. When you WH them, they still have that, plus your kb adds an extra kick in whatever direction you're facing upon power activation.|
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
I say this as someone who loves knockback:
Add me to the list of people requesting a 0.67 KB on Wormhole. I like that the power lets me position mobs where I want them, but the KB is so large and uncontrollable it is very hard to position them right. Teleporting through a wormhole and falling to their feet still preserves the theme. If Gravity had another basic AoE control to rely on the it would be fine, but this is the only one. |
If mobs don't get aggrod they'll be more likely to be standing still when you hit, and thus have no momentum other than what WH gives them. It should make the power more controllable than it is now.
I could be way off, but from my uses of WH and other AoE stuns I know that mobs continue moving in the last direction they were headed when the stun takes effect.
Please buff Ice Control.
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I would agree with all of these ideas. Make it a toggle patch that phases/immobs anything that enters it. If you or your allies could then enter the patch to be phased and do combat, that would be awesome. Also, you could use it as a safety zone by placing it at range and allies/yourself could jump into it to phase away from ranged attacks.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
What I would do with Dimension Shift:
1) Give it -KB. This would mean you can safely plant things inside. 2) Allow allies to phase when they enter it. This makes it so characters who can handle aggro can still fight whilst the Gravity Controller/Dominator is safe for a bit. 3) Change the FX to make it more noticeable. Other than that - I like these changes! Thank you Arbiter Hawk. |
Please buff Ice Control.
this dimension shift change is a horrible idea.
Grav is a great pvp disruption set partly because of dimension shift.
Making it into a targeted location based AOE essentially makes it worthless in a pvp situation.
I'm gutting my Grav/Fire if this goes through, and rebuilding a mind/fire.
Nerfing one of grav's best tools in PVP makes zero sense.
And at 20 seconds, compared to the 30 it currently lasts in PVE, everyone in PVE is also getting the short end of the stick, they might just be too fascinated by the shiny to realize that it's a pretty big nerf.
if it's going to be a toggle, it should be an enemy based toggle.
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You bring up a good point. Perhaps they can leave it unchanged for PvP? Or maybe the immob is autohit/unresistable?
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Originally Posted by recalx
this dimension shift change is a horrible idea.
Grav is a great pvp disruption set partly because of dimension shift. Making it into a targeted location based AOE essentially makes it worthless in a pvp situation. I'm gutting my Grav/Fire if this goes through, and rebuilding a mind/fire. Nerfing one of grav's best tools in PVP makes zero sense. And at 20 seconds, compared to the 30 it currently lasts in PVE, everyone in PVE is also getting the short end of the stick, they might just be too fascinated by the shiny to realize that it's a pretty big nerf. if it's going to be a toggle, it should be an enemy based toggle. |
Please buff Ice Control.
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the immob shouldn't exist in PVP.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
You bring up a good point. Perhaps they can leave it unchanged for PvP? Or maybe the immob is autohit/unresistable?
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it will just mess with mez suppression timers.
the devs are smart enough to know this.
there's a reason subdue doesn't immob in pvp.
Oh, and that begs the question if the immobilize is enhanceable at all. If not, then what's to stop warwolves/bosses/EBs/AVs from walking right out of the patch and smashing your face? Does the intang travel with them?
I'm thinking there should be some sort of debuff attached if high rank mobs/PvPers can just walk out of it due to high immob resistance. Perhaps a -acc, -dam, -regen or something?
Please buff Ice Control.
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i think any of those debuffs would put grav into overpowered territory in PVP. doms with debuffs in their primary are pretty dangerous (which is why i'm looking forward to a dark/fire dom). ice doms can still be pretty sick debuffers, and the grav -jump heights can be paired with a few other secondaries to make for a lot of disruption. i leverage the crap out of the -def on my earth/fire too.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Oh, and that begs the question if the immobilize is enhanceable at all. If not, then what's to stop warwolves/bosses/EBs/AVs from walking right out of the patch and smashing your face? Does the intang travel with them?
I'm thinking there should be some sort of debuff attached if high rank mobs/PvPers can just walk out of it due to high immob resistance. Perhaps a -acc, -dam, -regen or something? |
basically, i'd just remove the immob in pvp and allow for the toggle to be enemy target based. i'd also make sure the animation is something along the lines of rad's enervating field, instead of the propel/RI animation which is what i bet they're plotting on.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
If that's the case I know of a little Todd who needs to call in because "feeling DREADFULLY sick" today! mwehehe.
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Oh you coming down with that same 24-hour flu like I am after reading those changes?
On the changes...NICE!
Now Dimension Shift may actually be useful!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Any thought to my suggestion from a while back to make dimension shift debuff regeneration to zero if and only if it shifts the target. That way if you shift a target so that you can't attack it, at least it doesn't regenerate while shifted. Allowing the critters inside the power to regenerate while shifted is in effect a win for them. If the power stopped regen at the same time it prevented us from damaging the targets then it would be a form of combat "pause" rather than an actual shelter for the targets.
Targets that resist the shift should also be unaffected by the -regen for the duration of the power. |
Oh and I'm all in favor of this suggestion too.
Also if you could swap DS and Wormhole in power selection level that'd be swell too
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In simplistic terms, what's the difference between phased and intangible?
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That'd be great assuming you aren't saying that players would be immobed as well. |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I would agree with all of these ideas. Make it a toggle patch that phases/immobs anything that enters it. If you or your allies could then enter the patch to be phased and do combat, that would be awesome. Also, you could use it as a safety zone by placing it at range and allies/yourself could jump into it to phase away from ranged attacks.
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How would that work with the -threatlevel? Let's say you are in a place w/ closely positioned mobs, if you place the patch on one group and jump in, would you not notify the other mobs? You aren't in the same reality so I don't see why one would. That'd be the shizz. It'd still be an awkward power, but at least it only annoys the ranged people then.
It still has the qualities of an emergency power if needed, but can work in many many more situations. (run away dying squishy!) You could even do partial mob/AV/EB pulls. Also, if players can be stupid and attack phased targets could the enemies be stupid and attack non-phased targets? (that could be confusing though) There goes their alpha attack.
The animation would have to be a field animation though (i.e. sonic dispersion) so it's easy to notice.
For the people who liked the power, it could be used in almost the same exact way except it would be auto-hit (and be able to phase AVs w/ enhancements?).
P.S. What's a toggle patch? I don't even think they exist. It would have to be just a patch, no?
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It's a ground-targeted power that is also a toggle.|
Originally Posted by Azucar_NA
P.S. What's a toggle patch? I don't even think they exist. It would have to be just a patch, no?
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Yes, no powers currently do that, but there's no reason AFAIK why it wouldn't work.
(though technically the toggle vanity pets are also, they're not AoE though)
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Lol pvp. Seriously think of a better reason not to change it than this. The 5 people who do pvp in this game is not going to be enough.
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Originally Posted by recalx
this dimension shift change is a horrible idea.
Grav is a great pvp disruption set partly because of dimension shift. Making it into a targeted location based AOE essentially makes it worthless in a pvp situation. I'm gutting my Grav/Fire if this goes through, and rebuilding a mind/fire. Nerfing one of grav's best tools in PVP makes zero sense. And at 20 seconds, compared to the 30 it currently lasts in PVE, everyone in PVE is also getting the short end of the stick, they might just be too fascinated by the shiny to realize that it's a pretty big nerf. if it's going to be a toggle, it should be an enemy based toggle. |
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This is cool idea because if I remember correctly, they allowed phased players to be able to hurt another phased player. |
Originally Posted by ketch
I agree that Dimension Shift will probably still be limited to a panic button. It simply doesn't match the pace of the game very well. Making it into a toggle is a huge shift in usability, but it really needs to go a step further. In my opinion it needs to also phase allies that enter the area of DS so they can continue to combat enemies.
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The only problem I see this is that players can enter phased area to avoid damage until the foes enter the area so they can fight each other. lol
I don't know man. I think an AoE Phase is just a bad design to begin with. They are trying to make a bad design a bit better but it is still a bad design. I don't care much about DS. I still won't take it. It is a bad panic button because other players will get confused and if the situation is bad, I run!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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What's so great about Dimension Shift in pvp? How long can you cage the person for? 10s or less? |
Originally Posted by recalx
I'm gutting my Grav/Fire if this goes through, and rebuilding a mind/fire.
Nerfing one of grav's best tools in PVP makes zero sense. |
And it's really not a total nerf because it will get a bit better in pve. The current version is terrible because 1. the phased foes are still running and attacking and confusing the hell of everyone 2. it is a large aoe phase so you may phase things that you don't want to phase. 3. phase allows the mobs to regenerate back health (which becomes a net gain for the mobs).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I hate to say it, cause I am a grump. This addresses most of my issues (In theory...) and it looks like i may have to create another grav/nrg dom. With perma the control powers pop up enough to be useful, even in Grav's woefully short arsenal. Having DimShift as a useful tool that the team won't (always) threaten to kick you over is nice. I love propel, could never justify taking it in a "smart" build, and now I can take it without feeling like a clown. (Yet still get to be one!) |
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Hey all,
We have some more changes coming for Gravity Control in i22 to help improve the sets control capabilities. In addition to the new Impact mechanic and the quickening of Propel (which helps soft-control from Knockback), weve made a major change to Dimension Shift and some minor tweaks to Wormhole. Dimension Shift:
You'll see these changes on the i22 VIP Beta soon after it goes up.  |
so, jeez, yeah, (on paper only) this looks great. Of course it has to survive Beta and someone "fixing" it there. Yeah, I'm going to hold off ordering the party hats.
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I do agree with most of these statements - though since Wormhole teleports people, knocking them into the Dimension Shift isn't really a timesaver over just teleporting them into it in the first place. However, have you considered knockup instead of knockback? it's still flinging people, conceptually, but the scatter might be less of a problem for people.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Right now we're not planning on changing the knockback to knockdown in Wormhole. The KB actually synergizes really well with the new Dimension Shift, since you can grab a bunch of enemies and throw them into your Shift's sphere. I also just think the power feels/looks a lot cooler as "throwing enemies around with gravity" rather than "dropping enemies somewhere else with teleport", which keeps it much more in Gravity's kit. The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Right now we're not planning on changing the knockback to knockdown in Wormhole. The KB actually synergizes really well with the new Dimension Shift, since you can grab a bunch of enemies and throw them into your Shift's sphere. I also just think the power feels/looks a lot cooler as "throwing enemies around with gravity" rather than "dropping enemies somewhere else with teleport", which keeps it much more in Gravity's kit. The scatter effect of the KB is easy to contain with environment if the player desires to contain it, and if they don't, the stun duration is long enough such that it's still a very effective control power.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
I do agree with most of these statements - though since Wormhole teleports people, knocking them into the Dimension Shift isn't really a timesaver over just teleporting them into it in the first place. However, have you considered knockup instead of knockback? it's still flinging people, conceptually, but the scatter might be less of a problem for people.
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It's duration is like other controls in PvP... 4 sec. Has it's occasional uses, but it's not a game changer by any stretch. I've DS'd targets to escape, or phased a buffbot so you can focus on the spiker, but that's about it. However, making it a location based toggle eliminates most of those uses because people can just jump out of it. It's not like it comes with -travel. It has immob, which everyone in PvP has resistance to with something like CJ.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
What's so great about Dimension Shift in pvp? How long can you cage the person for? 10s or less?
And it's really not a total nerf because it will get a bit better in pve. The current version is terrible because 1. the phased foes are still running and attacking and confusing the hell of everyone 2. it is a large aoe phase so you may phase things that you don't want to phase. 3. phase allows the mobs to regenerate back health (which becomes a net gain for the mobs). |
Please buff Ice Control.
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We haven't seen any adjusted numbers yet so I'd be hesitant to call out more down time on the new DS. Even so, I have rarely encounted a situation that has needed or even benefited from 30 seconds of phase in the PVE game. In fact, one of the most commons complaints is that DS is far too long at 30 seconds.|
Originally Posted by recalx
And at 20 seconds, compared to the 30 it currently lasts in PVE, everyone in PVE is also getting the short end of the stick, they might just be too fascinated by the shiny to realize that it's a pretty big nerf.
if it's going to be a toggle, it should be an enemy based toggle. |
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
In simplistic terms, what's the difference between phased and intangible?
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Phase, on the other had, allows two entities in the same phase state (phased or unphased) to affect each other. For example, you phase an enemy; it cannot hit you because you are unphased. You could, however, use Dimension Shift and follow it Phase Shift and you'll be able to affect the enemies you hit with DS. Phase was introduced via PVP and was quietly leaked over to PVE without many people noticing.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
This is cool idea because if I remember correctly, they allowed phased players to be able to hurt another phased player.
The only problem I see this is that players can enter phased area to avoid damage until the foes enter the area so they can fight each other. lol I don't know man. I think an AoE Phase is just a bad design to begin with. They are trying to make a bad design a bit better but it is still a bad design. I don't care much about DS. I still won't take it. It is a bad panic button because other players will get confused and if the situation is bad, I run! |
Players could hide safely within the Phase zone, but they wouldn't be able to affect anything outside of it either. Essentially, it would just deny the enemies the opportunity to attack at range, but would do the same for the players who enter in.
So can you Dimension Shift mobs, (using the new rules) then use Phase shift to follow them (and using the new rules) they are immob, so blast them to oblivion for a few seconds, safe from both them and from non phased mobs?
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No you are in the same phased state so they could hit back. It just creates a separate dimension that you both reside in.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So can you Dimension Shift mobs, (using the new rules) then use Phase shift to follow them (and using the new rules) they are immob, so blast them to oblivion for a few seconds, safe from both them and from non phased mobs?
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Please buff Ice Control.
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You can change the effects of a power for PvP, but not its mechanics. As far as I know, the tech does not exist to change how a power is targeted based on conditionals.
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Originally Posted by recalx
basically, i'd just remove the immob in pvp and allow for the toggle to be enemy target based.
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What I would do with Dimension Shift:
1) Give it -KB. This would mean you can safely plant things inside.
2) Allow allies to phase when they enter it. This makes it so characters who can handle aggro can still fight whilst the Gravity Controller/Dominator is safe for a bit.
3) Change the FX to make it more noticeable.
Other than that - I like these changes! Thank you Arbiter Hawk.