Quote:
Unless Arbiter Hawk is using the wrong term, Targeted AoEs require a target and Targeted Toggles anchor on the target until detoggled. An example of a Targeted AoE toggle would be Enervating Field.
|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Where does it say anything about it being a LOCATION AoE? He said it was going to be a Target AoE toggle.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
first off, dimension shift, as it currently stands, immobs the target.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
What's so great about Dimension Shift in pvp? How long can you cage the person for? 10s or less?
And it's really not a total nerf because it will get a bit better in pve. The current version is terrible because 1. the phased foes are still running and attacking and confusing the hell of everyone 2. it is a large aoe phase so you may phase things that you don't want to phase. 3. phase allows the mobs to regenerate back health (which becomes a net gain for the mobs). |
get your facts straight. ;-)
dimension shift allows you to phase your opponent as he reaches peak damage (build-up, firey embrace, whatever) without putting you into the no-phase timer. then you can shift yourself up (fiery embrace in my case) and actually come back into the fight with a potentially higher dps than them.
also, good disruption players will phase an emp mid-spike to prevent heals on the other player.
(yeah kids, pvp requires a bit more brains than most of the people in this game have, i know).
Quote:
assassin strike changes. ;-)
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can change the effects of a power for PvP, but not its mechanics. As far as I know, the tech does not exist to change how a power is targeted based on conditionals.
|
Quote:
actually it's a bit longer on a dom and on a controller.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
It's duration is like other controls in PvP... 4 sec. Has it's occasional uses, but it's not a game changer by any stretch. I've DS'd targets to escape, or phased a buffbot so you can focus on the spiker, but that's about it. However, making it a location based toggle eliminates most of those uses because people can just jump out of it. It's not like it comes with -travel. It has immob, which everyone in PvP has resistance to with something like CJ.
|
i believe it's only 4 seconds on defenders and corruptors, 10s on dominators and controllers (same applies to secondary cages such as the ff and sonic ones).
Quote:
Yes, I know, but it's not the same thing as a ground targeted (Location) effect (pseudo-pet), which it seems like some people are assuming it is.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unless Arbiter Hawk is using the wrong term, Targeted AoEs require a target and Targeted Toggles anchor on the target until detoggled. An example of a Targeted AoE toggle would be Enervating Field.
|
It's the word "location" that's questionable here, Location (to me at least) implies ground targeted, which there's no indication new DS is. It's just an enemy targeted AoE, same as it already is. It's just a toggle now instead of a click.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Quote:
*cough* PowerRedirect *cough*|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can change the effects of a power for PvP, but not its mechanics. As far as I know, the tech does not exist to change how a power is targeted based on conditionals.
|
(the upcoming valentines event arrows do exactly this, with different target types and effect types based on if your target is friendly or not)
Quote:
I mistyped - it is a location-targeted AoE. It creates a 20 foot radius sphere at your targeted location which phases and immobilizes everything that steps inside of it. You can target a spot in the air, as well, so as to limit the volume of the sphere that intersects with a spawn, if you feel so inclined. All of this works together to let you control with great finesse how much of a group you phase, as well as giving Gravity Control characters a tool for "Area of Effect Denial" - perfect for stopping everything coming through a door, or for dropping where that blaster is standing so that the enemies around him can't melee him.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unless Arbiter Hawk is using the wrong term, Targeted AoEs require a target and Targeted Toggles anchor on the target until detoggled. An example of a Targeted AoE toggle would be Enervating Field.
|
We wanted to make Dimension Shift a toggle so that it could be turned off when the group was ready to attack the phased creatures. Toggle powers check whether or not their targets are eligible every tick of their effect, so you can't make a creature-targeted toggle phase power - the target would be eligible for the first tick, but on the second tick it would be in a different phase from the caster and would be ineligible. I got around this by having the power target a location instead of a creature - since the location is always in the caster's phase, the power works.
As for the request to switch Wormhole and Dimension Shift's order in the powerset, as a general rule we don't re-order powers within sets anymore - it causes problems for players when respec'ing. I've tested the revamped set internally a fair amount, and I think with these changes to the powers it's a very playable, very competitive control set - when it hits beta, I definitely recommend you all try it out at various level ranges to see how it feels, and provide further feedback. Thanks to all of you who have participated in this sort of unofficial feedback thread.
Quote:
I never thought of doing something like that...nice idea to "protect the squishies" |
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I mistyped - it is a location-targeted AoE. It creates a 20 foot radius sphere at your targeted location which phases and immobilizes everything that steps inside of it. You can target a spot in the air, as well, so as to limit the volume of the sphere that intersects with a spawn, if you feel so inclined. All of this works together to let you control with great finesse how much of a group you phase, as well as giving Gravity Control characters a tool for "Area of Effect Denial" - perfect for stopping everything coming through a door, or for dropping where that blaster is standing so that the enemies around him can't melee him.
|
Quote:
| We wanted to make Dimension Shift a toggle so that it could be turned off when the group was ready to attack the phased creatures. Toggle powers check whether or not their targets are eligible every tick of their effect, so you can't make a creature-targeted toggle phase power - the target would be eligible for the first tick, but on the second tick it would be in a different phase from the caster and would be ineligible. I got around this by having the power target a location instead of a creature - since the location is always in the caster's phase, the power works. |
Quote:
| As for the request to switch Wormhole and Dimension Shift's order in the powerset, as a general rule we don't re-order powers within sets anymore - it causes problems for players when respec'ing. I've tested the revamped set internally a fair amount, and I think with these changes to the powers it's a very playable, very competitive control set - when it hits beta, I definitely recommend you all try it out at various level ranges to see how it feels, and provide further feedback. Thanks to all of you who have participated in this sort of unofficial feedback thread. |
But okay, will definitely want to play around!
But if this makes me want to play my lvl 50 Grav/Thermal Controller more on live....I'll be
because I already have plenty of toons to "incarnate out"! 
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
Quote:
I haven't looked at those powers specifically, but there's a difference between changing effects based on target type, which we've always been able to do to varying degrees, and changing the mechanical targeting of a power which is what I was referring to. Specifically, I do not believe its possible to make a Location power to suddenly become a targeted power when in a PvP zone. If it is possible, the tech to allow that would potentially make a whole bunch of other interesting effects possible that were not possible before due to database architecture issues.
|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
*cough* PowerRedirect *cough*
(the upcoming valentines event arrows do exactly this, with different target types and effect types based on if your target is friendly or not) |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I'll wait till Beta hits before I decide to have another tantrum LOL.
One effect that I'd say is Missing from Gravity, is a sort of 'funnel' effect - something that draws all of the affected targets towards a central location. It seems like a natural effect for someone who is creating and/or shaping gravitational forces.
And it seems like a natural effect for either Dimension Shift, or Wormhole, or both. Dimension Shift could introduce a slow, inevitable sliiide deeper into the field. Wormhole could have a 'Knock-together', a Concentrating effect, instead of Scatter. Both of these effects could assist with Gravity Control's 'bad rep' for KB.
+
There is one more request I'd like to make - Please examine Singularity's movement speed! It's distressing (when it isn't catastrophic) to be able to out-run it with nothing but Sprint on. Perhaps give Singy perma-Fly, instead of Hover? If nothing else, introduce the 'teleport-code' that Mastermind pets use, to keep up with their fast-moving masters.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Quote:
wow....|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I mistyped - it is a location-targeted AoE. It creates a 20 foot radius sphere at your targeted location which phases and immobilizes everything that steps inside of it. You can target a spot in the air, as well, so as to limit the volume of the sphere that intersects with a spawn, if you feel so inclined. All of this works together to let you control with great finesse how much of a group you phase, as well as giving Gravity Control characters a tool for "Area of Effect Denial" - perfect for stopping everything coming through a door, or for dropping where that blaster is standing so that the enemies around him can't melee him.
We wanted to make Dimension Shift a toggle so that it could be turned off when the group was ready to attack the phased creatures. Toggle powers check whether or not their targets are eligible every tick of their effect, so you can't make a creature-targeted toggle phase power - the target would be eligible for the first tick, but on the second tick it would be in a different phase from the caster and would be ineligible. I got around this by having the power target a location instead of a creature - since the location is always in the caster's phase, the power works. As for the request to switch Wormhole and Dimension Shift's order in the powerset, as a general rule we don't re-order powers within sets anymore - it causes problems for players when respec'ing. I've tested the revamped set internally a fair amount, and I think with these changes to the powers it's a very playable, very competitive control set - when it hits beta, I definitely recommend you all try it out at various level ranges to see how it feels, and provide further feedback. Thanks to all of you who have participated in this sort of unofficial feedback thread. |
so, you just took away the only measure of unique control i had on my grav/fire with this, and basically went on to destroy every build that used dimension shift in pvp.. which is every single grav build ever played in pvp.
now there's zero reason to pick grav over ice if you want to slow or mind if you want to run disruption. thank you. coming from the only person using a grav dom in the last pvp league, i want to say thanks again and again. i'll be gutting my toon and putting all of my sets into a mind/fire.
buff mission accomplished.
Quote:
As a Tar Patch specialist, I can see how Dimension Shift will be a great funneling power. You do that by agroing a spawn and making them run into your 'gathering power.'|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
One effect that I'd say is Missing from Gravity, is a sort of 'funnel' effect - something that draws all of the affected targets towards a central location. It seems like a natural effect for someone who is creating and/or shaping gravitational forces.
|
For Tar Patch, a spread out group gets bunched up on the patch, however, with Tar Patch, they have the opportunity to actually get through it, or, shoot at you.
With the new Dimension Shift, foes running into it are stopped dead at the boundary and can't fire at you. All the other foes behind them will bunch up at the same spot. Set up a few traps such as other patches or pets nearby and when you release them (or DS drops), pow!
My Grav/Storm will have a blast superspeed with Hurricane on agroing foes and then hiding forcing them all to run into DS. Ice Patch underneath and drop DS. Fun.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
Perhaps if I grab my four Dimension Shift loving friends and we all link arms? I'm sure we can make a large enough barrier with our space warping abilities. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Lol pvp. Seriously think of a better reason not to change it than this. The 5 people who do pvp in this game is not going to be enough.
|
In seriousness though, I'll be sad to see the current form of Dimension Shift go. Thats not to say I won't find use out of its new form (obviously PvE only), but that I have gotten fond of its current form and its Bag O' Tricks style usage.
If you would Arbiter Hawk, could you make the new location based power able to be permanent and stay the same magnitude? At least then I will still be able to Phase enemies around Crates/Containers while safely blasting away at the Crate/Container itself.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Quote:
First, this is a buff for the vast majority of gravity players. Unfortunately, the needs of the few are sometimes victim to the needs of the many. Gravity in pvp is a subset of a subset of the entire player base. There may be a workable solution to what you'd like to see for PVP, but you'll have to stow the poor attitude and try to be constructive if you want to hold any hopes they'll dedicate the time and effort. Or, as a mantra I've often seen touted by pvpers, learn to adapt.|
Originally Posted by recalx
wow....
so, you just took away the only measure of unique control i had on my grav/fire with this, and basically went on to destroy every build that used dimension shift in pvp.. which is every single grav build ever played in pvp. now there's zero reason to pick grav over ice if you want to slow or mind if you want to run disruption. thank you. coming from the only person using a grav dom in the last pvp league, i want to say thanks again and again. i'll be gutting my toon and putting all of my sets into a mind/fire. buff mission accomplished. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Computer
Perhaps if I grab my four Dimension Shift loving friends and we all link arms? I'm sure we can make a large enough barrier with our space warping abilities.
In seriousness though, I'll be sad to see the current form of Dimension Shift go. That’s not to say I won't find use out of its new form (obviously PvE only), but that I have gotten fond of its current form and its Bag O' Tricks style usage. If you would Arbiter Hawk, could you make the new location based power able to be permanent and stay the same magnitude? At least then I will still be able to Phase enemies around Crates/Containers while safely blasting away at the Crate/Container itself. |
On another note, will Black Hole be receiving the same treatment as Dimension Shift? It shares all the same problems after all.
Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean. The magnitude of the phase is strong enough to overcome the mob surrounding the object, but not strong enough to phase the object. It works not because I'm missing the object, but because it has sufficient protection against DS. You just need to know which objects you can and cannot phase.
|
Originally Posted by ketch
Magnitude doesn't exist on phase powers. That hasn't been a factor in DS for a long time. And honestly, isn't that a bit of an unreliable trick? What happens when you phase the object you want to destroy?
|
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Quote:
What I mean is that there is no magnitude to phase. Intangibility had a magnitude (which was variable with enhancement and level difference). Phase, to my knowledge, is simply on or off. You can DS a giant monster or a Rikti Pylon as easily as you can a minion. I'll have to toss some objects into an AE map to test them as well.|
Originally Posted by Computer
I'm not sure what you mean. The magnitude of the phase is strong enough to overcome the mob surrounding the object, but not strong enough to phase the object. It works not because I'm missing the object, but because it has sufficient protection against DS. You just need to know which objects you can and cannot phase.
|
EDIT: Yeah, just checked on an AE mish. You can phase destructible objects.
EDIT 2: I missed the last part of what you said. Can you provide an example of an object that you cannot phase?
Quote:
Well the Crates/Containers in the Lambda iTrial are not affected by Dimension Shift. That leads me to believe there is some type magnitude system in place. Unless perhaps some things are just tagged to be immune to phase?|
Originally Posted by ketch
What I mean is that there is no magnitude to phase. Intangibility had a magnitude (which was variable with enhancement and level difference). Phase, to my knowledge, is simply on or off. You can DS a giant monster as easily as you can a minion. I'll have to toss some objects into an AE map to test them as well.
EDIT: Yeah, just checked on an AE mish. You can phase destructible objects. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ketch
EDIT 2: I missed the last part of what you said. Can you provide an example of an object that you cannot phase?
|
I think that the Pylons and Portals in the LGTF are also resistant, but it has been a while since I've done one.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Quote:
Given the hour and the status of my grav controller that's one I'll have to wait to test. I'll transfer him back to Virtue and maybe get a shot at it tomorrow night. If true, then they need to do a sweep of things that should be unphaseable (GMs, pylons, maybe the obelisk in CoP).
|
Originally Posted by Computer
Well the Crates/Containers in the Lambda iTrial are not affected by Dimension Shift. That leads me to believe there is some type magnitude system in place. Unless perhaps some things are just tagged to be immune to phase?
|
Quote:
Now that you mention it, I am 99% sure the obelisks in the CoP trial are also immune.
|
Originally Posted by ketch
Given the hour and the status of my grav controller that's one I'll have to wait to test. I'll transfer him back to Virtue and maybe get a shot at it tomorrow night. If true, then they need to do a sweep of things that should be unphaseable (GMs, pylons, maybe the obelisk in CoP).
|
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Quote:
i'd dare say that in it's current state, there are more pvpers using grav that pve-ers using grav :-\|
Originally Posted by ketch
First, this is a buff for the vast majority of gravity players. Unfortunately, the needs of the few are sometimes victim to the needs of the many. Gravity in pvp is a subset of a subset of the entire player base. There may be a workable solution to what you'd like to see for PVP, but you'll have to stow the poor attitude and try to be constructive if you want to hold any hopes they'll dedicate the time and effort. Or, as a mantra I've often seen touted by pvpers, learn to adapt.
|
i know it's cool to ask pvp-ers to be constructive, but i've already been constructive. i've suggested a targeted aoe mechanic centered around a target player in pvp, possibly using the new assassin strike conditionals which allow a power to operate in a completely different way based on a particular flag on the player.
you can't fault me for my attitude on this. i've been here since i7. i stayed past i13. i was there trying to show the devs that i13 was a bad idea (who wants to argue i was wrong and they were right now?).
adaptation = reroll, in this game. don't you guys see... this buff is a gimmick. there's no change here. it's still going to be useless 99.9% of the time in pve. now the thing is... it will make grav worthless in pvp. i was contemplating io'ing out my grav/ff a few weeks ago. i doubt i will now. with a single cage, i might as well be running a fire/ff without -kb on the hold and still keep my secondary cage working.
Quote:
That would entail people playing grav exclusively in PVP. Otherwise, all your grav PVPers are also PVEers, a subset if you will. At any rate, that's a pretty hyperbolic statement you make.|
Originally Posted by recalx
i'd dare say that in it's current state, there are more pvpers using grav that pve-ers using grav :-\
|
Quote:
| i know it's cool to ask pvp-ers to be constructive, but i've already been constructive. i've suggested a targeted aoe mechanic centered around a target player in pvp, possibly using the new assassin strike conditionals which allow a power to operate in a completely different way based on a particular flag on the player. |
Quote:
| you can't fault me for my attitude on this. i've been here since i7. i stayed past i13. i was there trying to show the devs that i13 was a bad idea (who wants to argue i was wrong and they were right now?). |
Quote:
| adaptation = reroll, in this game. don't you guys see... this buff is a gimmick. there's no change here. it's still going to be useless 99.9% of the time in pve. now the thing is... it will make grav worthless in pvp. i was contemplating io'ing out my grav/ff a few weeks ago. i doubt i will now. with a single cage, i might as well be running a fire/ff without -kb on the hold and still keep my secondary cage working. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
All of this works together to let you control with great finesse how much of a group you phase, as well as giving Gravity Control characters a tool for "Area of Effect Denial" - perfect for stopping everything coming through a door, or for dropping where that blaster is standing so that the enemies around him can't melee him.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
As a Tar Patch specialist, I can see how Dimension Shift will be a great funneling power. You do that by agroing a spawn and making them run into your 'gathering power.'
For Tar Patch, a spread out group gets bunched up on the patch, however, with Tar Patch, they have the opportunity to actually get through it, or, shoot at you. With the new Dimension Shift, foes running into it are stopped dead at the boundary and can't fire at you. All the other foes behind them will bunch up at the same spot. Set up a few traps such as other patches or pets nearby and when you release them (or DS drops), pow! My Grav/Storm will have a blast superspeed with Hurricane on agroing foes and then hiding forcing them all to run into DS. Ice Patch underneath and drop DS. Fun. |
As an aside, I wonder if DS will be able to defuse an alpha strike now. For example, drop the patch on some unaware foes. They turn and fire their initial volley, but it does nothing due to being phased. Then simple detoggle it after the big guns are spent.
Quote:
No. You're being simplistic or naive. In terms of hours put into PVE content and hours put into PVP content, I'd dare say that Grav, like TA and most stalker sets, would deviate from the standard trend of PVP and PVE usage, and could more easily be termed as "PVP Sets". If Brute dark melee was getting changed, I wouldn't be concerned at all. If plant control was getting buffed, I wouldn't care much either. Like it or not, there are a PVP and PVE sets in this game. Grav was a PVP set. Now it will be relegated as a third tier PVE set with weak AOE (think war mace, think /ice doms).|
Originally Posted by ketch
That would entail people playing grav exclusively in PVP. Otherwise, all your grav PVPers are also PVEers, a subset if you will. At any rate, that's a pretty hyperbolic statement you make.
|
Grav/ will end up being the /Ice of primaries after this change.
Quote:
|
I suspect that it's quite possible for some solution to be found given that we have powers that vary their affects based on factions, NPC v PC, and a slew of other conditions. Moreover, how it actually functions in PVP needs to be seen first. |
when i13 dropped, i called every single flaw and ways to solve it. people like you said "let's wait". that's beyond naive. after a month and a half, changes don't get revisited in this game. remember the stalker changes? that was almost 2 years ago. it took two years of dysfunction to get them to look at the AT again. remember the last time a control set was tweaked? last time blaster sets were looked at?
you've got a really rosy way of looking at the developers. there is not enough man-power to "see how things work", unless you want to wait a year and half or more in between to get things changed, you better get them right the first time.
re: player and npc tags:
stop showing your lack of knowledge when it comes to game mechanics.
a location based aoe power has zero use in the current state of pvp. the only reason things like glue arrow work is because you are always assured to ground a single person per activation.
the player/npc flags won't solve anything when it comes to this.
you'll need a completely new way of targeting (NOT LOCATION BASED) in order to gain any functionality in PVP.
Quote:
|
Don't you see? There may actual be a use for Dimension Shift, beyond a panic button, in PVE now. As illustrated here: And here: Some seemingly viable strategies while retaining panic button functionality. This can hardly be called a gimmick. It addresses one of the most long standing and prominent problems of DS in PVE, excess phase duration. Will it be enough to make the power worth taking? Perhaps. As an aside, I wonder if DS will be able to defuse an alpha strike now. For example, drop the patch on some unaware foes. They turn and fire their initial volley, but it does nothing due to being phased. Then simple detoggle it after the big guns are spent. |
Your team is still going to get raged when they have to wait for the phase period to be over and you'll still have a target cap of 16 or so enemies.
I don't think we should just dismiss PvPers here. They are part of the game and gravity control is one of the better pvp control primaries. I have done a lot of PvP in the past with my grav/ice and grav/elec doms and used them to good effect messing with the other team by WHing their buffbot into a kill squad, or WHing the drone hugging blaster. I've even used DS to escape scrappers, etc. Personally, I don't think the DS effect was long enough, consistent enough, usable enough to warrant basing my PvP strategy on it. I also don't think that it should hold up changes to the power to make it more useful in PvE. That said, those who use the power for PvP purposes should be heard and their concerns addressed, not ignored or shouted down.
If there's a way to preserve the click for PvP purposes, then great. If not, maybe there's some debuff mechanic that could be added to compensate for losing that utility. I'd like to see anyone exiting a dimension shift to be 'messed' up somehow. Most other patch type powers have some lingering debuff effect that lasts beyond the power's duration, so why can't something be added here for DS?
Arcana's idea about the -regen would be useful. That would work for PvE (targets can't just regen while phased) and would have PvP use. I can also see something along the lines of some -acc or -dam or -rch to simulate confusion when you reappear in 'reality'.
Please buff Ice Control.
Grav is a great pvp disruption set partly because of dimension shift.
Making it into a targeted location based AOE essentially makes it worthless in a pvp situation.
Arbiter Hawk said:
1) Give it -KB. This would mean you can safely plant things inside.
Unless I'm mistaken, that just means they'd get KB'd after they phased.
Edit: It's the same reason why you can still be mezzed by an attack after activating a phase shift power. All it takes is for that power to "hit" you with a delayed effect before you activate the phase.