So, 'pay to win' is the future of CoH?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 07:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Unless stated otherwise, three even con minions vs. a player entity is still the base metric. Perhaps three +1 minions if you have IOs, many more with set IOs and purples.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You can play with SOs, but you can't "win" with SOs, unless you are a really really good player. Completing all your missions on base difficulty is no longer the definition of "win," and I think more and more new content will be tailored to IO builds. Look at the problems people had with Trapdoor.
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My StJ/Fire Brute, with only SOs, breezed one of the Fire farms at +1/x4 at level 26...are SOs too powerful now? I run most missions at +1/x2. IO sets make the game too easy and make Incarnate trials just the right amount of survivable.
To answer the OP, people are already dumping money on RMT for PvP IOs and infamy...so why the Devs would want to steer away from this (apart from publicity concerns and power concerns) not too sure.
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3 even con minions is supposed to be a fight you WILL win, but should not be able to sleep through.
Completing your missions at base difficulty is still the standard.
The fact that most people function above this level is a player thing, not a dev thing.
Trapdoor falls under 'exceptions' and 'Incarnate content' even though it is technically pre-Incarnation.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
That would be a sweet deal.
Any, I would welcome Pay-To-Win if it meant I could pay to permaban certain forumites.  |
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I do hope that we get a pay-to-win option soon - I've been playing for over 5 years now, and I still haven't managed to beat the game.
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Figured this was the route they were going to take alright.
Not particularly fond of the best bits of a games being whored out, one of my chief complaints of newer Bioware games is that the best equipment frequently is in the pay-for DLC.
However given that you can still earn a lot of it fairly easily from Tips and the like I'll see how it goes. Still not impressed with this move though if it does happen.
Guys how can I find out info on the new AT sets for a scrapper thanks
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Quote:
Not to derail the thread, but I always disagreed with this formula of Jack's "Killer DM" mentality. Minions, if you follow comic book tropes, should be cannon fodder, cheap and easy to wade through and not worth much as all. Three street level thugs should NOT be a threat, even to a beginning hero. Heck, 9-to-1 should be a minor challenge purely for the "kobold effect."|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
3 even con minions is supposed to be a fight you WILL win, but should not be able to sleep through.
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Lts should be where your hero begins to feel any perspiration. A couple of good lTs should be something the hero should have to pay attention to.
Bosses should be a one to one threat and Elite Bosses should have a solo hero pushing the envelope of powers and creativity.
Arch-villians should need a super-team, or a really really really smart hero.
Giant Monsters should need the freaking JLA.
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Here ya go.. Keep in mind, that I don't believe that these showing up the way they currently do is intentional and that these could very easily change before becoming available for purchase.|
Originally Posted by Worcupine
Guys how can I find out info on the new AT sets for a scrapper thanks
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You can view them all by searching for them at the auction house.
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It's a derail, but I more or less agree with you. You have to keep in mind that when the game was created, they weren't even sure that people's systems could handle fights with 8 heroes and 24 minions, let alone more than that.|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Three street level thugs should NOT be a threat, even to a beginning hero. Heck, 9-to-1 should be a minor challenge purely for the "kobold effect."
Lts should be where your hero begins to feel any perspiration. A couple of good lTs should be something the hero should have to pay attention to. Bosses should be a one to one threat and Elite Bosses should have a solo hero pushing the envelope of powers and creativity. Arch-villians should need a super-team, or a really really really smart hero. Giant Monsters should need the freaking JLA. |
Of course some builds and teams eat Giant Monsters for breakfast these days, so YMMV
Not sure if those guys are using only SOs, though.
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AT sets were IIRC all unique so one set in one power, or split. Hardly going to be over powering.
Given how trivial it is to get a few non-purple, non-PVP key IOs through hero merits, then fill out the build as/when desired I dont see adding the "normal rare" IOs to the paragon market to be a big deal.
I'm not that concerned about purples, as again they are unqiue
I'm a little more concerned (but still not much) by PVP IOs, but in PVE they are hardly a significant boost over normal IO sets in most cases.
I really don't care enough about PVP to comment about if its good or bad for that part of the game
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In one ustream it was stated that they did not want the incarnate store, and the paragon market to share the same items. They wanted each one to have it's own exclusive rewards. As it is now, and from what I recall when looking through both, that is currently the case.
Which is why in testing I had to still run to the Incarnate store to grab things I needed for builds, even though I had 30+ thousand paragon points.
I do not see them changing this trend. That is both bad, and good. The bad is that those incarnate exclusive costume items will stay that way. The good is that you will not be seeing purple or pvp recipes in the paragon market.
Personally, I would like to be able to buy purples in the paragon market. My drop rate for them sucks, and the ones I need sell for over 400 mill on the market. Perhaps if they put them in the store it would level their cost out in game, or it would just make them worthless.
I will be buying several sets of scrapper IOs, I don't care how much they cost. My two main toons are scrappers, and I am always willing to go the extra mile for them.
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What problems? :P (And no, I never did the pull to hallway exploit when that worked.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Look at the problems people had with Trapdoor.
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Not to derail the thread, but I always disagreed with this formula of Jack's "Killer DM" mentality. Minions, if you follow comic book tropes, should be cannon fodder, cheap and easy to wade through and not worth much as all. Three street level thugs should NOT be a threat, even to a beginning hero. Heck, 9-to-1 should be a minor challenge purely for the "kobold effect."
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In addition, especially for the melee ATs the "three even con minions" starts tilting towards "+3 con minions" as you get above 30, in my experience.
The 3 even con minions is more for lower levels, and that itself was a radical departure from games like EQ where it was "Three even con Players vs. 1 NPC" practically.
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Sucks for PvP where pay-to-win is now the norm, but overall I'm pleased with this. There's no reason in the world NCSoft should leave all that money on the table, and it gives players an additional option for IOing a character.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
The part of this that worries me however, is that you can also now see 'Account Bound' & 'Attuned' versions of all the rarest IO's, PvP IO's and Purples as well.
LotG's, Miracles, Numinas, all the purples, all the PvP IO's.. |
These days I'm getting the market out of my play style, so Paragon Store Origin IOs are a very nice option to have. My only complaint is they are too expensive right now (at 25-50 cents each, more for rare stuff of course, I'd buy many on a regular basis. At current prices, they are mostly a pass.)
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I haven't been following this too much, but it does sound familiar... Where is the info on AT specific enhancements? When were they announced?
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1. I've beaten Trapdoor with SOs. In no case so far have inventions determined for me the difficulty of Trapdoor. When we're talking about a single fight against a single foe, inspirations are and have always been the representative upper bound of what players can accomplish, and those cost basically nothing.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You can play with SOs, but you can't "win" with SOs, unless you are a really really good player. Completing all your missions on base difficulty is no longer the definition of "win," and I think more and more new content will be tailored to IO builds. Look at the problems people had with Trapdoor.
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I don't often need those for Trapdoor either, but I can't think of anything I play that couldn't beat him with an SO build and a tray of small insps.
2. You can define winning for yourself, or you can obey someone else's definition of winning. The latter tends to be far more problematic than the former.
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Sure, if you want to make the game three times more expensive to play for all the server resources required to support such combat, on top of the fact that those nine guys will still be worth about the same as one or two minions: you're not going to level nine times faster just because you believe comic book heroes are supposed to take on nine things at once. |
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Not to derail the thread, but I always disagreed with this formula of Jack's "Killer DM" mentality. Minions, if you follow comic book tropes, should be cannon fodder, cheap and easy to wade through and not worth much as all. Three street level thugs should NOT be a threat, even to a beginning hero. Heck, 9-to-1 should be a minor challenge purely for the "kobold effect."
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Quote:
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Lts should be where your hero begins to feel any perspiration. A couple of good lTs should be something the hero should have to pay attention to. Bosses should be a one to one threat and Elite Bosses should have a solo hero pushing the envelope of powers and creativity. Arch-villians should need a super-team, or a really really really smart hero. Giant Monsters should need the freaking JLA. |
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Personally I feel the philosophy on the pvp IO rarity is completely backwards.
You don't encourage pvp by making the "pvp gear" almost impossible to come by without great luck or great wealth. If you want to get more folks pvping then you need to make the pvp IO's more accessible not less.
That said... pvp IO's in my opinion should not offer such massive pve benefits like the uniques tend to do (3% defense, 3% damage resistance, endurance/health regen, etc)
In general I always felt the purple IO's were supposed to be the pinnacle of rarity and value. Pvp IO's should be less rare and less valuable than those as far as I am concerned.
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Ah yes, *this* thread. I was wondering what was taking it so long to appear, but I'm glad it's finally here.
As long as you can get the regular (and purple, and PvP) IOs in-game normally I'm completely fine with them being sold in the store as well. I never use the purples or PvP IOs personally anyway - and I don't feel inferior to players that do.
I'm sure it's been pointed out before, but one power on my Street Justice/DA Scrapper actually mentions a/t-specific IOs as an allowable set. This is probably a coding stuff-up, and I don't think it's an indication of these sets coming out 'tomorrow'.
Back on subject, I don't mind if the full selection of IOs can be bought on the Paragon Market. I figure if people can afford it using real money, great. The only risk I preceive is if they can be bought on PM using points and then traded on WW/BM etc, it might further skew the consignment house. I think IOs bought through Paragon Points should be account bound to avoid this.
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I don't know if its pay to win, but it will certainly hurt two of the remaining competitive aspects of the game, building a good build, and acquiring the materials to do so.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I am hesitant to read too much into this, but unfortunately the cynical side of me is finding it hard not to.
The new AT specific IO sets that were screencapped back during beta can be seen on the auction house market in-game. I'm assuming this is a bug as they are not supposed to be able to be sold or traded, and they are listed as 'Account Bound' and 'Attuned'. I'd hazard a guess that these will be going live very soon. The part of this that worries me however, is that you can also now see 'Account Bound' & 'Attuned' versions of all the rarest IO's, PvP IO's and Purples as well. LotG's, Miracles, Numinas, all the purples, all the PvP IO's.. I hate to jump to conclusions, and I really hope I am wrong, but I don't think I want to be part of a game where all a player has to do is shell out some cash and buy the most powerful builds possible. |
I really have to wonder what segment of the gamer population this is meant to appeal to ?
1. People who want to see lots of dead things but can't figure out how to mod an old FPS, or find one that already has been ?
2. People who have such an investment in this game they can't tell they are being taken advantage of ?
3. People with Dollars >>> Sense ?
Wish I could say I didn't expect and predict this but its inevitable. Free to Play games depend on forcing the players to keep up with the Joneses
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Just to nit pick... no one in any free to play game (of which city of heroes is not... it's a hybrid just sayin) is "forced" to do anything. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and impulse purchases.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't know if its pay to win, but it will certainly hurt two of the remaining competitive aspects of the game, building a good build, and acquiring the materials to do so.
I really have to wonder what segment of the gamer population this is meant to appeal to ? 1. People who want to see lots of dead things but can't figure out how to mod an old FPS, or find one that already has been ? 2. People who have such an investment in this game they can't tell they are being taken advantage of ? 3. People with Dollars >>> Sense ? Wish I could say I didn't expect and predict this but its inevitable. Free to Play games depend on forcing the players to keep up with the Joneses |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
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This.|
Originally Posted by Psychoti
As long as you can get the regular (and purple, and PvP) IOs in-game normally I'm completely fine with them being sold in the store as well.
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The same applies to the new AT specific IOs too but somehow, I think they will be market exclusive...
As an aside, the Trapdoor thing always makes me smile when I see it. Trapdoor is likely the weakest AV/EB in the game. Granted I don't usually fight him as an AV (Always an EB) but he is a pansy. He does little damage and has 0 regen if you kill his pets.
I kill him regularly with no enhancements at all and without inspirations while missing with half my attacks. I don't know how but people don't seem to see the massive popup on the screen that says "kill his pets to stop him regenerating" or something to that effect, every time a pet is summoned. If you really want it easy, just pull him into the lava and let that kill him while you just work on the pets.
Win?
Win what? When do we 'win' this game?
And if this is -only- about PvP, touche. If its about more than jut PvP, please tell me how to "win" in this game.