So, 'pay to win' is the future of CoH?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 07:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I make it a habit of not playing can you punch the softest, joining the bush of the month club or engaging in other activities that you win by damaging yourself.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
If that's competition to you...well...let's just say I doubt most people are using the same meaning of competition. That just sounds like build envy to me.
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| So giving money to a game I love so it will continue to prosper means I have no sense? Thanks for the insult. |
Maybe they could provide you a credit card terminal so you wouldn't have the overhead of using paragon market for this function.
I don't know about you but to me the insult is purchasing a video game, and multiple expansions for it and then being nickle and dimed to death for the top gear, and having idiots say this is additional content.
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Any envy you feel toward having to have the same things other do is your problem. |
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For 40 PP points you can get a spoon to clean out that sand.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I make it a habit of not playing can you punch the softest, joining the bush of the month club or engaging in other activities that you win by damaging yourself.
Perhaps you can PM positron or Clockwork01/Beaststyle and ask them If you can get an easy to use temp power with limited charges that will wipe out the map and make the screen have some sort of large explosion when you use it, and simultaneously wiping out all the mobs on the map. The end screen of missile command comes to mind. Maybe they could provide you a credit card terminal so you wouldn't have the overhead of using paragon market for this function. I don't know about you but to me the insult is purchasing a video game, and multiple expansions for it and then being nickle and dimed to death for the top gear, and having idiots say this is additional content. You must be a very sad little person. I enjoy a game and dislike seeing it prostituted out as the people who make it sell out everything the game is about. |
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Last first, City of heroes is indeed now free to play in that if I want to I can start a new account and pay 0 to as much as I feel is needed. So a subset of its market is exactly F2P and does indeed depend on forcing the people to pay in so their characters can keep up.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The classic free to play model generally relies on essentially infinite treadmills. Games like Farmville can trivially add content at a pace faster than nearly all players can acquire it, so there is only a small chance of someone actually outpacing development: it takes a huge investment in time and a lot of money to outpace those kinds of games usually, and their strategy is to essentially trade money for time: you can buy your way further along the treadmill. They don't care, because the treadmill is incredibly long.
Most MMORPGs are not like that, and cannot be like that. Neither our no all other sub MMOs I'm aware of that are now implementing Hybrid models can or do follow that model, because the content pipeline simply cannot keep pace with it. If you let people simply buy their way down the treadmill, you will run out of treadmill. So the monetization of more standard MMORPGs has followed other paths: monetizing customization, for example. Its one of the reasons why incorrectly called City of Heroes a "free to play" game is not just a matter of incorrect semantics. The business models of virtually all the genuine free to play games and all the hybrid ones tend to be completely different, and applying the thinking of one to the other invariably fails to be remotely relevant. |
As to the rates any game can introduce content that is only loosely related to the business model. It is much more a matter of how large their market is, how willing it is to absorb the content and the cost of creating content for the game.
You can see this with that very large game where their big content dumps are practically rewrites of the game.
Lemme get this straight, your basically implaying that. "I want what I want, and if I don't get it, then everyone else is an unsensible idiot and there is nothing they can do or say."
You remind me of every other whiner. I'm taking everything you say with a grain of salt. Have a nice day.
(Oh, there is nothing you can say or do about that. 
)
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This pretty much sums up the thread. Being able to buy stuff that you can't trade and that isn't any better than what you can get the normal way is completely innocuous.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Essentially, IMHO, the line that must not be crossed is for it to be possible to purchase anything with Real Money that can then be traded.
This must never happen, and if it has happened, it must un-happen. |
Another_Fan, hearing you talk about doing what's best for the game is like hearing T. Boone Pickens talk about what's best for the environment. It's in his interest to destroy what he pretends to protect.
I'd be pretty uncomfortable if Purple/PVP IO's were sold in the Paragon Market... I can see the point that third party RMT shouldn't be enabled and this is a way to circumvent it, but I hardly think that these kinds of measures should be taken to prevent something I have literally never encountered in game.
The reason I have a problem with paying cash for the best enhancements is that simply put, a lot of people (myself included) have worked very hard to get some of that nice stuff.
If this ever happens I can say that I will never post up any of my personal builds on the forums again, for example. As of right now if anyone wanted to copy a really nice build (or aspects of a build,) it would require an investment of time generating the funds to do so. Now, what, any Jo Schmo can see something, shell out some cash for it, and bam! It's theirs.
I've heard the argument that no one else should have an impact on how I play the game, but the reality is that this sort of would. I have some stuff I've picked up and used effectively that took me time to get, and I'm proud of that.
For instance, I saved up Villain Merits for 2 months for a level 10 Gladiator's Armor IO. It took a long time and I felt like I earned it. If everyone could go and shell out 10 bucks for it, that would invalidate some of my game time to me. Now, if you don't/wouldn't feel the same way, that's perfectly fine- This is just how I feel about the situation and I wanted to take a minute to express that.
Can someone post any info on the SoA attuned sets.
I can't find them anywhere.
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At first I thought this was pretty harsh, but on further review, I agree.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
What I do know, is if Another_Fan is complaining about it, it must be good for the game.
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I know, right? I recall the set had +3% DMG and something like +7.5% recharge. The global bonus was either DoT or fear (the texts disagreed). Either way is fine (but I'm hoping for DoT). I'd also like to know if those bonuses only apply to the power they're in, or all powers.
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Originally Posted by Xinner
Can someone post any info on the SoA attuned sets.
I can't find them anywhere. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I admit it, I LOLed.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
For 40 PP points you can get a spoon to clean out that sand.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
City of heroes is indeed now free to play in that if I want to I can start a new account and pay 0 to as much as I feel is needed. So a subset of its market is exactly F2P and does indeed depend on forcing the people to pay in so their characters can keep up.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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FYI, this game essentially became pay to win the moment Enhancement Boosters were added to the Paragon Store. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. I fully expect that to be the tip of the iceberg though.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
I'm genuinely curious what people's definition of "win" is.
You can do all of the content in the entire game on just SOs. Hell I'm sure you could do the majority of it without enhancements slotted at all. So what exactly can't you win at without IOs and buying stuff?
Is the definition of win to solo AVs or solo x8? Because you can still solo AVs and stuff with Incarnate powers. The Victoria bot can solo AVs by herself. You don't need IOs for that. Much less AT-specific IOs, or purples. Or enhancements at all.
So what exactly can't you win at without IOs? Soloing LRSF or something? Because damn, you mean to tell me all this time I've been paying and I haven't even won yet?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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CoH: Freedom's been out for a few weeks now - has anyone won yet?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I thought i had, but they nerfed winning in the last patch |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
CoH: Freedom's been out for a few weeks now - has anyone won yet?
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Quite the opposite.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You must be a very sad little person. I enjoy a game and dislike seeing it prostituted out as the people who make it sell out everything the game is about.
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I am quite happy, enjoying the game and my life quite a lot. My wife loves me, I have good paying job and good health.
In fact, I get a special joy from reading posts so full over hyperbole they could float a battleship.
So, by all means, please continue to bring me great joy, I appreciate it. Really.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Its not the future yet.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
CoH: Freedom's been out for a few weeks now - has anyone won yet?
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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^^ this.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm genuinely curious what people's definition of "win" is.
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I also am genuinely curious about what "win" means in this game. Myself and others have asked this exact question in this thread, and so far I haven't seen one person tell me what it is to "win" in City of Heroes.
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But the devs have said that Freedom is the future - have they lied to us?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not the future yet.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Not yet.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But the devs have said that Freedom is the future - have they lied to us?
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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For certain values of 'freedom' and 'future', certainly. Not necessarily reasonable ones though.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But the devs have said that Freedom is the future - have they lied to us?
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But back to the original topic, the use of the term 'win' is unnecessarily confusing. The point that chaps peoples' hides is the idea that the store can be used to obtain advantages not available in game. (And yes, with enhancement boosters, that shark has alreay been jumped.)
There are a number of people who get the most fun out of the game by trying to make their characters as powerful as possible. These people tend to get upset when this requires store-bought upgrades, and understandably so - that sort of thing is common in true F2P games, but relatively rare in hybrid models.
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Since this seems to be a common response in this thread, I would like to ask the people who are taking that position this:|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
This pretty much sums up the thread. Being able to buy stuff that you can't trade and that isn't any better than what you can get the normal way is completely innocuous.
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If a brand new player who started playing yesterday purchasing the rarest and 'best' gear for real money is perfectly acceptable, as long as it can also be earned through normal play, no matter how much time and effort it may take the regular player, where do you draw the line on what is acceptable?
Is anything acceptable for real money purchase as long as it can also be earned through regular play?
If a player spends years working on earning 1200+ badges, is it acceptable that the hypothetical brand new player with more $$ than sense, be able to buy every badge in the game for real money through the market?
Is it acceptable to buy XP for cash? How about levels? Level 0-50 instantly for PP? How about accolades like TF Commander or Portal Jockey? All these things provide tangible, in-game benefits to the player.
If, to you, it is perfectly acceptable for a someone to pay cash to buy all the rarest enhancements that it may have taken another player months of effort to earn, then it follows that all of my above examples should be fine as well.
If XP, levels, badges, etc. for cash is not acceptable to you, but enhancements are, I'm genuinely curious as to why..
ETA: What about Incarnate slots and powers? I really hate grinding those trials over & over to get all those tier 4 powers. Why not spend some cash and bypass all that?
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Originally Posted by DocBenway
^^ this.
I also am genuinely curious about what "win" means in this game. Myself and others have asked this exact question in this thread, and so far I haven't seen one person tell me what it is to "win" in City of Heroes. |
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Originally Posted by Brillig
The point that chaps peoples' hides is the idea that the store can be used to obtain advantages not available in game. (And yes, with enhancement boosters, that shark has alreay been jumped.)
There are a number of people who get the most fun out of the game by trying to make their characters as powerful as possible. These people tend to get upset when this requires store-bought upgrades, and understandably so - that sort of thing is common in true F2P games, but relatively rare in hybrid models. |
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I'd be pretty uncomfortable if Purple/PVP IO's were sold in the Paragon Market... I can see the point that third party RMT shouldn't be enabled and this is a way to circumvent it, but I hardly think that these kinds of measures should be taken to prevent something I have literally never encountered in game.
The reason I have a problem with paying cash for the best enhancements is that simply put, a lot of people (myself included) have worked very hard to get some of that nice stuff. If this ever happens I can say that I will never post up any of my personal builds on the forums again, for example. As of right now if anyone wanted to copy a really nice build (or aspects of a build,) it would require an investment of time generating the funds to do so. Now, what, any Jo Schmo can see something, shell out some cash for it, and bam! It's theirs. I've heard the argument that no one else should have an impact on how I play the game, but the reality is that this sort of would. I have some stuff I've picked up and used effectively that took me time to get, and I'm proud of that. For instance, I saved up Villain Merits for 2 months for a level 10 Gladiator's Armor IO. It took a long time and I felt like I earned it. If everyone could go and shell out 10 bucks for it, that would invalidate some of my game time to me. Now, if you don't/wouldn't feel the same way, that's perfectly fine- This is just how I feel about the situation and I wanted to take a minute to express that. |
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That is much better....seriously.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Fine. If you want to play semantics and get tunnel vision over the wording that I used, let's call it "Pay for performance" instead of "pay to win". Is that a more acceptable term?
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So, basically, what you're saying is that if somone could buy these kind of things on the market, you feel that would invalidate much of your playtime?
I'm curious, do the people who feel that this would invalidate their playtime enjoy playing the game? I'm willing to admit that many aspects of this game are a grind (like every single mmo out there), but once you start feeling like playing the game is work you should stop doing whatever it is that you're doing in the game (not permanently but, for heaven's sake, go do somthing else either in game or out of game).
I have also spent lots of time obtaining cool shinies in game, and I'm proud of that. However, where you and I differ, is that I would have absolutely no problem teaming with somone who spent money on their build to make it uber (as long as they know what they're doing). Tell me...if you were on a team, and everyone was getting along and having a great time beating up villains, would you suddenly quit your team or start raging at somone if you suddenly found out that that person had paid for many of their shinies? It's a game, and I'm gonna have fun playing it regardless of who payed for what.
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This is already the case. And performance is optional. You could've made the case that "winning" isn't optional if you could actually define "winning" as anything that made sense. But "pay for performance" is how the game already works, and how everything in real life works.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Fine. If you want to play semantics and get tunnel vision over the wording that I used, let's call it "Pay for performance" instead of "pay to win". Is that a more acceptable term?
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You can get to work in your Honda Civic just fine. If you want to pay for a Corvette you can. If that's not worth it to you then just enjoy your Civic. Nobody requires you to have a Corvette.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Let's Dance!