So, 'pay to win' is the future of CoH?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 07:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Shouldn't the title of the thread be "Overpay to win"?
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My question would be, "why do you care?" I can probably count on both hands the total number of players who care how many badges another player has.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Since this seems to be a common response in this thread, I would like to ask the people who are taking that position this:
If a player spends years working on earning 1200+ badges, is it acceptable that the hypothetical brand new player with more $$ than sense, be able to buy every badge in the game for real money through the market? |
The only argument against having things for sale on the market I'm hearing is that it makes some players self-worth plummet. If a players ego relies on being in competition with other players for the best or most stuff, then I feel sorry for those people, especially given that the vast majority of players couldn't care less what you have.
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Is it acceptable to buy XP for cash? How about levels? Level 0-50 instantly for PP? How about accolades like TF Commander or Portal Jockey? All these things provide tangible, in-game benefits to the player. If, to you, it is perfectly acceptable for a someone to pay cash to buy all the rarest enhancements that it may have taken another player months of effort to earn, then it follows that all of my above examples should be fine as well. |
@Doctor Gemini
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No you were just wrong and pretty much speaking without any facts, or even arguable references to examples as back up to your position. Usually only the pope gets to speak ex cathedra. I am sure you feel your position is better than his.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
uses a picture in lieu of making a point
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Paragon studios has already embraced the increased power, increased rate of progress, and competitive advantage as substitute for actual content. They have even demonstrated that they will be pushing this forward. We have the AT specific IO sets which for some ATs are easily the most powerful sets in the game. We also have attuned IOs which in general are plain more powerful than anything you can win in the game.
Funny as hell for me, because in beta I said they would be putting in fixes to the game and charging people for them. What do we have ? The fix for not being able to roll IOs at the level you want then ? Paragon studios: thats too much work to fix its linked into the whole rewards system (then) now: Here just buy these sets at 12 bucks a set (or whatever the price winds up being). Oh Kheldians have problems ? Oh you need the kheldian IO that bumps up your overall effectiveness.
Your response was something to the effect that it would be crazy for them to sell fixes to problems in the game. Yet that is what they are doing.
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The reason anyone should care has to do with how microtransaction games work and evolve. They wind up catering to the bat feces insane players that don't spend hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars but multiple thousands of dollars. We are talking the kinds of people that bankrupt themselves from QVC.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
My question would be, "why do you care?" I can probably count on both hands the total number of players who care how many badges another player has.
The only argument against having things for sale on the market I'm hearing is that it makes some players self-worth plummet. If a players ego relies on being in competition with other players for the best or most stuff, then I feel sorry for those people, especially given that the vast majority of players couldn't care less what you have. |
Most people that play (Popular free game found in your browser) spend absolutely nothing for it. When I say most I mean 99+%. Its the few that spend nutsy amounts where the profit is in those games, and that is the market that gets catered to ? (ruthlessly exploited would be better) in those games.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
CoH: Freedom's been out for a few weeks now - has anyone won yet?
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Anyways, the only "pay to win" view I'd understand is for PvP, as far "paying to win" in PvE...that's just moronic.
So they are might be adding "Rares" to the store at the same time they nerf the iTrial method of earning them in game. Interesting.
Nerfing PLing while adding purchasable XP boosters. Interesting.
I wonder what these trends say about the direction this game is going.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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I'm glad you apparently enjoy being wrong almost as much as I enjoy pointing it out.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
No you were just wrong and pretty much speaking without any facts, or even arguable references to examples as back up to your position. Usually only the pope gets to speak ex cathedra. I am sure you feel your position is better than his.
Paragon studios has already embraced the increased power, increased rate of progress, and competitive advantage as substitute for actual content. They have even demonstrated that they will be pushing this forward. We have the AT specific IO sets which for some ATs are easily the most powerful sets in the game. We also have attuned IOs which in general are plain more powerful than anything you can win in the game. Funny as hell for me, because in beta I said they would be putting in fixes to the game and charging people for them. What do we have ? The fix for not being able to roll IOs at the level you want then ? Paragon studios: thats too much work to fix its linked into the whole rewards system (then) now: Here just buy these sets at 12 bucks a set (or whatever the price winds up being). Oh Kheldians have problems ? Oh you need the kheldian IO that bumps up your overall effectiveness. Your response was something to the effect that it would be crazy for them to sell fixes to problems in the game. Yet that is what they are doing. |
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You totally miss the point. CoH, last time I checked, is a game, and games are generally supposed to provide a level playing field where cash doesn't provide an advantage (F1 and the Yankees notwithstanding.)|
Originally Posted by Dispari
This is already the case. And performance is optional. You could've made the case that "winning" isn't optional if you could actually define "winning" as anything that made sense. But "pay for performance" is how the game already works, and how everything in real life works.
You can get to work in your Honda Civic just fine. If you want to pay for a Corvette you can. If that's not worth it to you then just enjoy your Civic. Nobody requires you to have a Corvette. |
Just because money provides an advantage in real life doesn't mean that it should in games.
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Comes down to this, if you want to cheat yourself out of the game, go right ahead, but the devs aren't going to make it that easy.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
block of stuff
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I've yet to use enhancement boosters...don't see the point.
Some Min/Maxers wouldn't mind purchasable accolades, particularly the +HP ones.
Buy all the badges you want, they mean nothing
As far as these AT Specific IOs go...they're unique and account bound, so selling them on the market can't be done. The only other thing I can compare these too is low level Hamidon and Titan Origins that don't even exist.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Just because money provides an advantage in real life doesn't mean that it should in games.
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Looking at the I21 announcements it seems not only have I been right I have been positively prescient. Especially about the devs philosophy of forcing content down players throats by any means|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm glad you apparently enjoy being wrong almost as much as I enjoy pointing it out.
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Tell me are you hard at work coming up with a way to polish the 121 turd as you have done with things like the I13 PvP changes and other notable bombs ?
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LOL that is so far off its not funny. In pve with a few exceptions, you either have a build or you suck.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
across enough people with billion dollar builds to know well enough that they die just like everybody else. There is no real advantage in PvE, you either know how to play, or just suck. PvP on the other hand, is a entirely different beast where "pay to win" will actually apply and thus, this thread would make more sense.
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so, what part of knowing how to play did you not understand?
PvE is just so hard 
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So very hard.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
so, what part of knowing how to play did you not understand?
PvE is just so hard |
Man I wish they would throw us a bone and toss us VIP some free points we can use to buy upgrades with if we don't know how to play.
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They are? Where's this rule written? And who wrote it? Tons of games these days use a DLC system. Tons of games have expansions and content and bonuses you can't access without paying extra. Tons of games come with special pre-order bonuses and perks. In fact pretty much all the most popular modern games have stuff you pay for.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
You totally miss the point. CoH, last time I checked, is a game, and games are generally supposed to provide a level playing field where cash doesn't provide an advantage (F1 and the Yankees notwithstanding.)
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Heck, just our FTP model gives advantages to people who pay money. Are the devs obligated to give us everything for free because "it's a game?"
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I am okay with them being able to buy everything. As long as the price is relative to the offset effort.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Since this seems to be a common response in this thread, I would like to ask the people who are taking that position this:
If a brand new player who started playing yesterday purchasing the rarest and 'best' gear for real money is perfectly acceptable, as long as it can also be earned through normal play, no matter how much time and effort it may take the regular player, where do you draw the line on what is acceptable? Is anything acceptable for real money purchase as long as it can also be earned through regular play? If a player spends years working on earning 1200+ badges, is it acceptable that the hypothetical brand new player with more $$ than sense, be able to buy every badge in the game for real money through the market? Is it acceptable to buy XP for cash? How about levels? Level 0-50 instantly for PP? How about accolades like TF Commander or Portal Jockey? All these things provide tangible, in-game benefits to the player. If, to you, it is perfectly acceptable for a someone to pay cash to buy all the rarest enhancements that it may have taken another player months of effort to earn, then it follows that all of my above examples should be fine as well. If XP, levels, badges, etc. for cash is not acceptable to you, but enhancements are, I'm genuinely curious as to why.. ETA: What about Incarnate slots and powers? I really hate grinding those trials over & over to get all those tier 4 powers. Why not spend some cash and bypass all that? Fine. If you want to play semantics and get tunnel vision over the wording that I used, let's call it "Pay for performance" instead of "pay to win". Is that a more acceptable term? I'm glad some people seem to get the point of this thread.. |
The +1 enhancement boosters give so little boost for the buck if someone wants to thrown their money at NC let them.
If someone wants to spend silly amounts of money for badges, let them.
If NC let people spend crazy money to get purples and PvP IOs now, let them.
As long as you keep it vague and theoretical it can be made to sound worse than it really it. Put it in terms of % performance per $ then we'll talk.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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This is meaningless unless you only mean PvP and since our PvP isn't balanced anyway...
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Originally Posted by Brillig
You totally miss the point. CoH, last time I checked, is a game, and games are generally supposed to provide a level playing field where cash doesn't provide an advantage (F1 and the Yankees notwithstanding.)
Just because money provides an advantage in real life doesn't mean that it should in games. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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P2W is the old APB model and it's the new APB model. I hope the relaunch goes down in flames as a lesson to the industry.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I don't think its the case in CoX, but honestly PAY TO WIN is the future of gaming.
The writing is on the wall. |
Regardless, unless something's changed no Orange or Purple sets will be on the market.
@bpphantom
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Competitive advantage? Tell me, who exactly is it that you are competeing with? Are you trying to tell me that you are competing with your fellow teammates? I could maybe understand if you were only talking about PvP. But PvE? C'mon..... yea, you're right, its all a substitute for actual content. I mean its not like they've added several new zones, zone events, ITrials, regular trials, a new starting zone, new contacts, new powers, new costume sets...etc...|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Paragon studios has already embraced the increased power, increased rate of progress, and competitive advantage as substitute for actual content. They have even demonstrated that they will be pushing this forward. We have the AT specific IO sets which for some ATs are easily the most powerful sets in the game. We also have attuned IOs which in general are plain more powerful than anything you can win in the game.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL that is so far off its not funny. In pve with a few exceptions, you either have a build or you suck.
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19 50s... I have, right now, 19 50s.
There are purple sets on... 5 of them (3 of those have 1 each, the Warshade has 2 from the purple pets set and then a set of Absolute Amazement, and my "farmer" fire/elec tank has all the bells and whistles, and he's just for farming). PvP IOs on 2.
My "main", my first 50 ever, is an old issue 1 Invul/Energy tank with not a single purple or PvP IO on him at all, and he can wade through all of the content of the game, exemped or not, with no trouble. My LAST 50, an elec/elec brute, also has no purples or PvP IOs and he routinely tanks incarnate trials. Hell, on a whim he soloed the lab during a Lambda.
The "either you have a build or you suck" is categorically untrue. I have a SS/SR 50 brute that is capped on all defenses with SOs, and he hits HARD. I did use Mids on some of my builds to know how best to proceed, but with so many 50s, there is NO way I could (or would) try to outfit them all with the extremely expensive sets. Besides, purple sets aren't any good at defense. You get nice recharge and some fire resists, and some immob resists... Nothing else to help you survive the game.
I don't care how hard you can hit, if you fold the first time YOU get hit.
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Originally Posted by DocBenway
wow. that is just....wrong. I have somthing on the order of 17 level 50s, 2 of which have any purple or expensive IO sets at all. 70% of my other level 50s don't even have IOs, only SOs. I could get on any one of those lvl 50s slotted with only SOs and kick butt all over Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. I don't need the shinies to make my toons effective. And I certainly don't feel the need to compete with people on my team.
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LOL if you define good low enough everyone is great
PvE is so hard that people need to compete with each other for no real tangible benefit over the other and not even know they're competing!
Man, if I got butthurt like a whiney little baby when someone had a more powerful character than me, I wouldn't have time for anything else. Who cares if Jimmy Fatbux has all the shinies, and who cares how he got them?
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Well now they can hate him for having all the shinies for having no life like them but if he could have bought them then they won't know whether to hate him for being rich or for having more free time than they do.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Man, if I got butthurt like a whiney little baby when someone had a more powerful character than me, I wouldn't have time for anything else. Who cares if Jimmy Fatbux has all the shinies, and who cares how he got them?
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Thats a great observation. You're very astute. And how exactly does this apply to what I said?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL if you define good low enough everyone is great
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Once again.....
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
In pve with a few exceptions, you either have a build or you suck.
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Black and white. According to you, you either have a build with purples and other expensive IOs or you suck.
I sure am glad we're not playing pre-IOs, or, ya know, everyone would suck.
If a brand new player who started playing yesterday purchasing the rarest and 'best' gear for real money is perfectly acceptable, as long as it can also be earned through normal play, no matter how much time and effort it may take the regular player, where do you draw the line on what is acceptable?
Is anything acceptable for real money purchase as long as it can also be earned through regular play?
If a player spends years working on earning 1200+ badges, is it acceptable that the hypothetical brand new player with more $$ than sense, be able to buy every badge in the game for real money through the market?
Is it acceptable to buy XP for cash? How about levels? Level 0-50 instantly for PP? How about accolades like TF Commander or Portal Jockey? All these things provide tangible, in-game benefits to the player.
If, to you, it is perfectly acceptable for a someone to pay cash to buy all the rarest enhancements that it may have taken another player months of effort to earn, then it follows that all of my above examples should be fine as well.
If XP, levels, badges, etc. for cash is not acceptable to you, but enhancements are, I'm genuinely curious as to why..
ETA: What about Incarnate slots and powers? I really hate grinding those trials over & over to get all those tier 4 powers. Why not spend some cash and bypass all that?
Badges? Come on man, why do you even hunt for badges if it isn't purely for your own amusement? Even if it is out of some competitive streak among the badge lady of the night community, and if badges were for sale which they won't be, all you need to do to verify that someone's badges are legitimate is check their years played badges to see if it matched up to the other badges they have.
I don't care if someone pays for advancement or for power or for achievements or anything else like that. The only person that affects is them and if it makes them happy then more power to them, and to paragon studios for convincing them that it would make them happy. I care when the real money bleeds into the game balance. In this game, having an influx of inexperienced but potent characters doesn't do that in any way. What would do it is letting one real penny brush against the economy. I believe that the devs are smart enough to avoid this and so far I don't think we have any reason to doubt that that will continue to be true.