Why I hate the new Tutorial

As far as I know, the Pop Help Tips are there if you decide to skip the tutorial, much like how Twin Shot sends you to Ms. Liberty to learn about training, even though it's a bit late.

which is something really silly, exceptions withstanding, the message telling you to visit the trainer and improve your powers is there in the rewards text.

Okay, I can agree with that. Would be a lot nicer if you could rt-click on signature NPCs and get their backgrounds, but at least you do see them. But there's a drawback to this particular implementation: Given that they're invincible (to the extent that they don't even have health bars), I can't help but get the impression, "You're not even remotely in *their* league," which is not the kind of feeling I would want as a new player. I would want to feel like an essential part of the action, not an irrelevant accessory. Couldn't the tutorial have sent you to B.A.B. and S.P. as your first contacts?

B.A.B.: "Hey, you! You see these big lugs I'm fighting? I need you to get in the action! Here's how you con, target, and attack! Now defeat 5 of these things and get back to me! Good job, go see S.P!"

S.P.: "Here are some enhancements and inspirations, and here's what they're for and how to use them. Now equip yourself, fire up an insp, and help me take out a few more of these things! Good job, now there's a hero down who needs help, so go help him out!"

Yes, but the thing is - what I "learned" in the Tutorial, at least when I ran it, I learned from the Pop Tips that aren't really unique to the Tutorial itself. It's quite possible I missed some of the instructions, I admit, but I don't recall there being other such than the Pop Tips, and possibly one or two additional pop-ups. About the only real thing I learned, as you said, is how to level up as there was a trainer actually IN the tutorial, training with whom was part of my mission objective.

Beyond that, though, the Tutorial doesn't really have you do anything the game wouldn't have had you do if you skipped it, and it doesn't tell you anything more than it would if you skipped the game and relied on Pop Tips. In fact, let's review what we're asked to do in the tutorial:

1. Jump over a pit, so jumping, which is subject to Pop Tips.
2. Run to a waypoint.
3. Click on an object and make a moral choice which WILL NOT show up in the rest of the game in the form that we see.
4. Run to a waypoint.
5. Defeat 3 enemies, with no explanation given as to how aside from Pop Tips not unique to the Tutorial.
6. Train up, which is a legitimate lesson.
7. Fight in an event that, to be best of my knowledge, doesn't resemble anything else in the game, at least nothing I've ever done. If anything, it resembles the fight against Strage from the Darksiders tutorial which also doesn't teach you jack ****.
8. Purchase from the Paragon Market. Of course.
9. Enter a helicopter that you won't see for the next 20 levels at least.

None of the things I mentioned come with any real instructions. You're just sort of told to do them in the same vein as that Penny Arcade skit where a man is drowning and a helpful person is giving him advise like "OK, now drown less." What instructions there are come in the form of Pop Tips that would have popped up with or without the tutorial.

So here's my question - in what way is it better to start a brand new player in the tutorial as opposed to starting him in the game proper? What knowledge would he be missing which he would have had otherwise?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I would suggest that if they're going to drop inspirations and enhancements on you at those low levels, it would be helpful to be told what they're for and how to use them, just as the old tutorials used to tell you.

Very good points!

My answer is to improve on what's there, the only thing that really needs to be done in the tutorial, is explain why you can't be defeated. We find out that the hospital has been destroyed, but that's about it. Once you leave the tutorial, they should have given you a different starting contact that would have explained the hospital, enemy danger levels, end/health and enhancements, since there's no real need to explain those in the new tutorial. After that, get introduce to Matthew Habashy, tweak Twin Shot's story a bit and let the game roll from there (I haven't rolled anything Villain side yet since the headstart began, so I don't know about that).

The Pop Tips are an annoying QoL feature that I wish would go away...

The problem with that is the fact that some players might not have volume on for whatever reason, or just find the voice over hard to hear; I know I can barely hear it at my normal game levels. Everything the female says should be written somewhere, like Officer Daniels' dialog is.

You can do that now.

You are. I really didn't say anything to them aside from just little heroic and fun banter as we killed Shivans. The three of us just popped in, I let them lead the way, and we managed to kill our Shivans, talk to Blue Spectrum, we confirmed with each other we were all gonna be become heroes and not villains, then we went an fought the giant Shivan. No complications at all, and they had a blast.

Honestly, I could never have even forced them to run the old tutorial, with how tedious and boring it was. Now they absolutely love the new one and run it on every new alt.

You can turn them off if they annoy you. There's somewhere in the general options menu, I believe. The only reason I haven't turned them off is I keep forgetting to do so. That, and I'm paranoid a Pop Tip might be introduced that I haven't read, for what that's worth when I don't read the ones I see now anyway.

And I'm not really saying the game will befuddle new players with its staggering complexity (though to be honest, I've had that in a lot of MMOs) so much as I just wonder what the point of having a tutorial is any more when it's not really a tutorial as such. It's cinematic, I suppose, but it no longer seems to retain its original function.

And honestly, I don't think a tutorial has to choose between being boring but informative or being "exciting" but sparse. Look back to something as simple as the original Half-Life tutorial to see how well that integrates as part of the actual game. Sure, it can be preachy, especially when you know what you're doing, but it doesn't sacrifice tutorial explanations for the sake of a more action-packed game. To be honest, I actually kind of like my tutorials to be calm, slow and methodical so that I have the time and concentration to focus on what I'm being told and practice it, rather than just being told about it and tossed off the deep end to figure it out at a later time.

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I have, if you'll permit a slight tangent, seen quite a few games which start off tossing people in the heart of hectic but easy action without so much as telling players what their controls are. Over the course of this action, basic functions are explained as they become prudent just so players know they exist, and by the time the tutorial is over, players are stripped of whatever awesome power was making them invincible, dropped back to beginner status and started all over with the basic controls and functions. That's exactly what Darksiders does to introduce a lot of its in-game mechanics even long before you need to use them, such a that of the Chaos Form or the Block Counter.

To be honest, I'm not a great fan of these kinds of tutorials because they fail to ground the game for me, and grounding the game into the framework of player responsibility is important. You don't become truly aware of the danger until you get killed and start keeping an eye on your health. You don't become truly aware of your offences until you find them insufficient and have to worry about managing them. You don't worry about your inventory until you start to need to think about it.

To me, a tutorial should not be a completely safe environment that trades hands-on experience with the game for basic flash, because what a tutorial needs to teach players is responsible gameplay: Don't die, don't swing like a spastic monkey, keep an eye on your inventory, keep an eye on your goals. Of course new players need to have their hand held, as there's nothing worse than a game which stomps your face in 60 seconds in, but the hand-holding should be to highlight the player's responsibility, not hide it.

This isn't about not being able to die in the new tutorial, not entirely. It's about not really having to do anything or even think to pass it. You can't die, anything you so much as touch explodes and the Giant Shivan gets pushed back into the put whether you attack it or not, even with no other players present. The tutorial shows us a lot, but it doesn't ask us to DO a lot, and so we're prepared for a hands-off experience that one can sleep-walk through, and that's really not the case for the low levels, ESPECIALLY not for brand new players deprived of veteran powers and veteran wisdom.

To me, a good tutorial should NOT complete unless the player demonstrates the ability to replicate the knowledge he is being taught.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This a thousand times. Dropped right into the middle of the action and I am not ready to proceed until I adjust my UI, Powers, Vet powers, etc. We need to appear somewhere first where the action isn't happening all around us. Maybe a bunker where we have exit a door into the action after we've had a chance to do the UI/Powers setup thing that I'm sure everyone does with a new character.

Will new players have to do that?

How is running away until you get saved by an airstrike "heroic"?

I absolutely love the new Atlas Park!

It's beautiful - it looks like an actual park area now, and there are now so many little details that make it so much more alive - it really does feel like the heart of the city.

I fought Shivans to help aid others.

I helped a fellow hero, Blue Spectrum survive and continue his fight.

I fought more Shivans to help clear the teleportation beacon for myself and others.

Then this huge Giant Shivan appears and knocks me and everyone on our ***! It takes me and the other heroes in the immediate area to beat it down. So cool.

It was awesome. Perhaps your attitude is YOUR problem.

I had this problem. For whatever reason, my targetting keys would not select the Shivan, so I had to click on it. The targetting box was so huge that I mostly couldn't see it. Not much of a help. Also, we get the zone-trial event window which shows what we have to do. It said to defeat the monster. So I joined in with the other hero and did just that, but apparently I was too late, because then I got ANOTHER window with defeat X Shivans and then had to defeat the monster again by myself. What?


Yes. I DO THIS WITH EVERY NEW GAME I PLAY. It has nothing to do with being a veteran. This is my first chance, in-game, to check video settings and other options. I understand the feeling of being rushed by the story, but while lives hang in the balance, what are my graphics settings?


This. I wish they'd just stop calling it a Tutorial, and refer to it as the Quickstart Introduction. The ongoing training missions are the tutorial, if needed.

Also, my take on the ongoing missions: I get the first one from Twinshot, and it's about trainers. REALLY? Something I've already done a half-dozen times, at least? At that point, I declined, then hit Find Contact to see if I could get the origin arcs. Nope; only two options showed up: Twinshot, and Officer Wincott. So off to the Hollows.

I'm with Forbin on the single-contact line. As a new player, if subsequent alts go down the same identical path, I'll quickly look for other means. Vets know how to do that; new players can learn all the wrong lessons (such as AE).

--NT

And in this, the new 'Tutorial', as much use for teaching anything as a chocolate on Mars, fails spec-bloody-tacularly.

I don't feel like a Hero or Villain. I feel utterly bloody useless.

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Let's elaborate on this a little, shall we?

Old Hero Tutorial; Outbreak had you learning the ropes and helping the science teams contain and then deal with the Outbreak of...uh...Outbreak Virus. Since one of Villain sides early missions has the villain deliver some of this stuff to Paragon City, it make perfect sense for this event to happen over and over. New strains of virus, new cures made by the Heroes and allies.

You learned how to move, talk to contacts, attack stuff, what different enemy cons meant, how to use inspirations and how to combine enhancements. You also learned about instances, clickies and a little about Allies/rescue.

And you felt quite heroic. You went toe-toe to with mobs of Infected, rescued a fellow Hero and found the cure to the virus strain. Sure, it was a bit old and clunky, but it did the job.

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Old Villain Tutorial; Zig Break Out. What better way to start off as a Villain than tearing your way out of the top security prison in the City in a storm of bullets, fire and meta-powered awesome? You leaned about clickies, different contacts, enemy cons and attacks, enhancements and inspirations, before doing instanced missions.

You were the real deal. Arachnos was there for important Metas, and YOU were on the list of big bads. This whole shebang was, in part, for you. You beat up everything in your way. You helped blow up the comms tower; YOU made the escape possible.
Up yours, authority!

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So, what do we have in the New Tutorial?

Well, you learn to move, sure. You learn to attack. You DON'T learn anything about conning. You get nothing about instances, glowies, new contacts, inspirations OR Enhancements. You don't even fight all that much. And there's Sis P and BaBs, one shotting everything and being all awesome and heroic...wow, I feel greeeatyeahno.

The end 'Boss' is the most lacklustre, uninspiring affair ever. There is NO threat, ever. Vanguards jets do more damage than I do! This thing can't even hit me! And how, HOW, exactly are the Shivans meant to be blocking the teleport system? Cosmic Plotonium Rays, hmm?

'But the new tutorial arcs teach you all this!'
Yeah? They teach you how to level up after you have had to level up four times already? Everything they 'teach' comes AFTER the times you've needed them! That's not a tutorial! That entirely negates the ENTIRE POINT of a tutorial!


I mean, my gods, I never EVER thought I would say this...as anyone who ever read any of my posts re: Revamping the old tutorials will know, and my feedback in Beta...but strewth, I miss the old tutorials! There, I said. Divided by zero.
Because the new tutorial doesn't make me feel 'super' at all, except in the context of super-fluous.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Then head to Ouroboros

Never said it wasn't a veteran thing. I have that same power but the inspirations it generates aren't as valuable as the two from the old tutorial.

I'll even concede that it may very well be a matter of perception but to me it feels like I was better off before.

For clarification the Shivans use a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff to block the teleport system.

This^^^ the new tutorial doesn't teach a whole lot, but at the same time, when I was a new player on a trial account a bit over a year ago, I almost didn't give the game a chance because of the old tutorial... there needs to be something inbetween...

The same way villains take out the Mediport system when reclaiming Fort Darwin.

They blew up the hospital. I don't believe it's mentioned in the tutorial, but it is mentioned in one of the Atlas Park early arcs.