Why I hate the new Tutorial
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-09-18 13:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Count me in as someone who hates the new "tutorial" as well.
A "tutorial" is supposed to be a teaching mechanism.
This thing doesn't teach squat.
It should not even be considered a "tutorial".
In my beta feedback, I listed all the things I learned by level 2 in the old tutorial, and compared them to the new... Frankly, there is no comparison. And using 20 levels worth of missions to "fill the gaps" is pathetic.
I hate this thing too.
Horrible implementation.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
My gripe with the tutorial is that I used to be able to start with 2 enhancements and a decent size red and green insp I could sell at the market to start outfitting my alts. Now it seems I can only get a single green insp.
Now as to the new missions in AP. I am already bored to frickin tears of seeing the exact same contacts/missions on every single character. Always having to go thru Kalinda or Burke what killed any interest I had for playing villains, and now AP is doing the same thing. I want my old contacts and missions back where I at least had the illusion of variety.
I would have liked to see enhancements and inspirations introduced in the tutorial - like after the mroal choice and training to level 2, Heroes could have been asked to go to a ruined building to help salvage equpment/supplies, and Villains could have been sent to a similar location to loot stuff from the ruins - it'd only need to be like 3-5 glowie crates to click on, with each one dropping a TO or an inspiration.
It would only have added a couple more minutes to the tutorial, but it would also have added some exploration to the tutorial area map, as well as giving basic info on enhancement and inspirations - the main info could still have bene given in the ongoing training arcs.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think this was a poor decision. Wouldn't it make sense for the tutorial to teach you how the hospital works?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You are incapable of getting defeated in the new tutorial.
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I hate the new tutorial too. It looks nice and I can't say I don't like the feel of it but the way that the objectives are laid out makes it feel way to dumbed down. In contrast the overwhelming detail of the ruined city is quite visually appealing. I honestly hate the voice acting to the point that I just ended up turning down the volume so I couldn't hear it. After all these years of not having any voice actors now having them kinda ruins the fun for me.
As for the giant shivan, I don't think we even need to fight the thing. I mean we are brand new superheroes that have very limited powers, we shouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell against that thing. It would have been more epic if sister and babs would have been fighting it instead. Also the fight with the little shivans and then the giant one feels off. I don't know if it's supposed to happen or not but if you zone in after the little shivans are downed and the big one is coming up you don't get to tp away with the others even if you help push it back. Instead you have to wait until it goes away then you have to fight the little shivans and then the big one again.
On a side note, does anyone else besides me not like the atlas park revamp?
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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I like the revamp, I just wish they left the old contacts/missions and simply added the new ones. They could have just required that new players go thru the new contacts on their first character, then let players have a choice of going thru the new contact or the origin contacts on their other characters.
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Originally Posted by Boomie
On a side note, does anyone else besides me not like the atlas park revamp?
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How could someone not like the upgrade? |
Originally Posted by Boomie
On a side note, does anyone else besides me not like the atlas park revamp?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Sounds like you were there with your friends and were able to answer any questions they might have had. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong?
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
...I played with a couple friends who were relatively new to the game. They didn't have any of these feelings you speak of, and we managed to get into the battle after a minute and still had plenty of fun and they understood all they needed to.
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I do agree the new tutorial is dumbed down a bit, but then again, you don't need to know too much from how to move, target and level up at that time.
You don't need to know BABs ans PS's stories, all you need to know is that they're two heroes helping out. Though I don't doubt that the Devs would probably tweak the tutorial.
Solution:
Destroyed Galaxy given the designation "Tutorial Start Zone." Then while you level from 1-19, you complete the tutorial.
They replaced the tutorial and gave us 20 levels to get through. And it's not like they're hard to get through. You learn the system.
You complain that "in the old tutorial it was cut and dry, I can get through it, learn what "I" need to and bam, on my way into Atlas" (paraphrasing) But, you miss the point... 20 LEVELS you gain through the new tutorial. And it's not any longer than the original 20 levels. In fact, I believe you gain the 20 levels much faster now.
So it's not like you're wasting time doing the tutorial. You're doing something, learning and leveling as fast as ever.
Here's a gift horse. What are you going to do with it?
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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I'm interested in seeing the new AP content, but I agree with the variety issue: Pre-Freedom you had *ten* possible starting contacts on the CoH side. Now you have...one?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Now as to the new missions in AP. I am already bored to frickin tears of seeing the exact same contacts/missions on every single character. Always having to go thru Kalinda or Burke what killed any interest I had for playing villains, and now AP is doing the same thing. I want my old contacts and missions back where I at least had the illusion of variety.
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I also wasn't a fan of the Kalinda-->Mongoose line vs. Burke--><whoever> line, particularly the fact that whenever you were done with Kalinda or Burke, you didn't get a choice of which contact to visit next. I would have liked to have seen the same variety V-side as H-side, or at least maybe something along the lines of providing a starting contact for each of the different lieutenants of Lord Recluse.
But as an overall gripe, the variety problem is something that has bugged me ever since they introduced The Hollows and Striga Isle and said, "Here's the way we'll do zones from now on!" and repeated this zone-long-story motif with Croatoa, Faultline, the Rikti War Zone, etc. They're making it so you either do the zone or you don't. You either play the story of the Hollows, or you don't. You either play the story of Croatoa, or your don't. Every arc feeds into the next such that it makes no sense to pick up in the middle (if you even can). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'd much rather have variety such that I can say, for example, "Oh, here's a contact who needs me in Talos. Now I'm needed in Croatoa. Now I'm needed in IP." And on and on so that I'm needed all over the city, rather than camping in one location saying, "Okay, let's do this zone for the next few days." So, basically I don't like the fact that I have to say, "Do I do this zone or not?" Of course, I don't expect them to ever change this, but I am a little sad that Atlas Park has now been made over in that image. (I also miss going to City Hall and seeing my origin-based contacts. That was a way to make player's toons feel special right off the bat, making them go to an origin-specific contact, as if the origin designed by the player really mattered to the NPCs. That was like showing respect for the players' creativity right from the beginning. Now it's more like, "Okay, whoever you are, get in there and fight!")
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I could get behind this.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I like the revamp, I just wish they left the old contacts/missions and simply added the new ones. They could have just required that new players go thru the new contacts on their first character, then let players have a choice of going thru the new contact or the origin contacts on their other characters.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How could someone not like the upgrade?
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Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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No offense, but it really sounds like some people here are really on a crusade here. You've been here since I2, I've been around since maybe...I3?|
Originally Posted by NewScrapper
Sounds like you were there with your friends and were able to answer any questions they might have had. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong?
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1) What was the last time you needed to play the tutorial to learn something?
2) Assuming you're a bright person and can learn all the systems that were introduced in the old tutorial, do you think that other new players actually did? Research says...no, they learned later, because really, they just wanted to get to the game proper.
3) Though there's nothing wrong with having a bias (people generally do hate change no matter how much they deny it), objectively, the goals of the tutorial are as follows:
[a] Introduce enough systems to allow new players to get started
[b] Hook players into the game/gameworld
While there are certainly ways that the new tutorial could do both better, I fail to see how it fails it worse than the old tutorial. The old tutorial was so plain and dull that guaranteed most players would pop into Atlas or Galaxy not having read or understood any of the tutorial, and would just end up blindly asking how to do things.
If you really think that throwing that amount of information at a brand new player is a successful way to teach, you must think that throwing entire university courses at a student in a week is also a great idea. Even if you can handle it, not everyone can.
And if you don't care for it? At least it's blessedly short.
The extended tutorial is a good thing for new players who haven't had the chance to make new friends in game yet, who can teach them all the systems. Also, it's a known fact, at least with computers, that when a "friend" "promises" to "teach" a new computer buyer how to use it, that person buying the computer is likely to not learn much more than how to mess up more often than not. The same goes here.
Whether people like Macs or not, Apple Stores definitely get something right: at time of purchase, they give customers a chance to get started, learn just enough to get going, and have a choice to come back over an extended period of time to learn anything they want to in a (hopefully) engaging and personal manner.
The same idea goes here: it's there for people who need that guiding hand in order to learn. And if you're a pro and don't need it? No one is forcing you to do it.
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As they say, if it ain't broke then don't fix it. CoH was broke. It was broke to a lot of people. The subscription numbers showed that. They changed the way the game was because they WANT to get new players. Sure, they can get only so far with "vets" but they're really not getting anywhere.|
Originally Posted by NewScrapper
... That was like showing respect for the players' creativity right from the beginning. Now it's more like, "Okay, whoever you are, get in there and fight!")
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And please don't go there. We still have as much freedom, even more so now. "Oh, my character can't..." I call bull on that. You can create ANY AT now and bring them to whatever side you wish... from the start. You don't need to level a MM to 20 then switch sides. You can still RP whoever your character is in whatever way you want. The tutorial doesn't limit you in any way.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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QFT. Seriously, OP, you're thinking from only your own point of view. Kids today aren't all that bright. Look at reality tv. You think most of the kids today that can repeat the entire cast list of Jersey Shore are Rhodes Scholars? If the tutorial feels dumbed down, they did it for a reason.|
Originally Posted by Failsight
No offense, but it really sounds like some people here are really on a crusade here. You've been here since I2, I've been around since maybe...I3?
1) What was the last time you needed to play the tutorial to learn something? |
*holds up shield to block the incoming tomato bombs*
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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Seriously? I'm a hero/villain-in-training for *20 levels?* Wow, I sure feel like a superpower now! "Look out, world! I came here to TRAIN!"|
Originally Posted by Commander
Destroyed Galaxy given the designation "Tutorial Start Zone." Then while you level from 1-19, you complete the tutorial.
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| Here's a gift horse. What are you going to do with it? |
I'll play the new tutorial again soon -- still need to roll a villain on it. Maybe the second time around I'll enjoy it. That happened in the case of another game I played -- the first time through I didn't like it, but when I gave it another chance, things started to click. I gotta say again, though, the first time I went through the old CoH tutorial, everything clicked right away, so kudos to the devs of the original tutorial for giving it all the mojo it needed for new players to catch on quickly and get started.
I agree about how the new tutorial doesn't actually teach you any of the things you need to know about the basic mechanics of the game. Which, to me, is pretty much the point of a tutorial. I want to learn how to use my powers/skills and use inspirations and enhancements. The new tutorial does not do a good enough job of teaching those things to new players.
What I suggest is putting the old tutorial (or a similar one that teaches the necessary game skills) back in and using the new tutorial as part of the game's story line. Finish the tutorial, talk to Coyote and advance to Galaxy City (this would be the only choice) where you find yourself fighting for your life against the Shivan invasion only to barely escape to Atlas Park where you begin your heroic journey using all the skills you learned in the tutorial and tested in the new "Starter Zone".
your = Belonging to you.
you're = Contraction meaning "You are."
Ur = The name of an ancient Mesopotamian city.
ur = This is not a word.
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Not really. I don't expect any massive changes, but I am highly dissatisfied with the new tutorial and feel compelled to express my opinion why in case the devs see something in my complaints and say, "Yeah, he's right, maybe we should change that. Let's put that in the queue."|
Originally Posted by Failsight
No offense, but it really sounds like some people here are really on a crusade here.
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| 1) What was the last time you needed to play the tutorial to learn something? |
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| 2) Assuming you're a bright person and can learn all the systems that were introduced in the old tutorial, do you think that other new players actually did? Research says...no, they learned later, because really, they just wanted to get to the game proper. |
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objectively, the goals of the tutorial are as follows: [a] Introduce enough systems to allow new players to get started [b] Hook players into the game/gameworld While there are certainly ways that the new tutorial could do both better, I fail to see how it fails it worse than the old tutorial. |
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| The old tutorial was so plain and dull that guaranteed most players would pop into Atlas or Galaxy not having read or understood any of the tutorial, and would just end up blindly asking how to do things. |
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| If you really think that throwing that amount of information at a brand new player is a successful way to teach, you must think that throwing entire university courses at a student in a week is also a great idea. Even if you can handle it, not everyone can. |
I like the Apple/Mac comparison, but I was under the impression that the old tutorials *were* the Apple/Mac. This new tutorial is like a bright red power button that lets you know how to turn the PC on, but not much else.
Again, I'll give it another try later on. Maybe I'll find things about it to enjoy that I didn't see the first time. These are only my first impressions.
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And you seriously think it was the *tutorial* that was preventing new players from catching on? I mean, you could be right, maybe they ran focus groups and asked whether or not the tutorial was interesting. But my first guess would have been the fact that there's a F2P competitor sitting right across the virtual street -- I'd be over there myself if my sub didn't go into 2012 because free is way cheaper than $11/month.|
Originally Posted by Commander
CoH was broke. It was broke to a lot of people. The subscription numbers showed that. They changed the way the game was because they WANT to get new players.
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| We still have as much freedom, even more so now. "Oh, my character can't..." I call bull on that. |
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No bombs from me. I'd have to agree with you on the average IQ drop, actually. I nearly hit the roof on this issue a long time ago walking down the aisle of a Toys R Us and seeing what they'd done to Stratego. Used to be (old man voice: "back in my day...") the pieces in Stratego were numbered from 1 to 9, with 1 being the Marshall who could beat anyone, and 9 being the Scout who couldn't beat anyone. But apparently kids got too stupid to realize that for the purposes of Stratego, the lower number beats the higher number, so they renumbered the pieces from 10 (Marshall) down to 2 (Scout). I don't think they even have a 1, that's how stupid this all is. And all because it was too much to ask kids to think.|
Originally Posted by Commander
QFT. Seriously, OP, you're thinking from only your own point of view. Kids today aren't all that bright. Look at reality tv. You think most of the kids today that can repeat the entire cast list of Jersey Shore are Rhodes Scholars? If the tutorial feels dumbed down, they did it for a reason. *holds up shield to block the incoming tomato bombs*
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I had the same argument a while back concerning comic book covers. I asked Joe Quesada, EIC of Marvel, "I used to read Iron Man but I don't now. Question: How do you expect me to ever pick up an Iron Man comic again if all you do month after month is show a picture of Iron Man on the cover? I know Iron Man's in the book because it's his title. You gotta show me more than that if you want me to be interested." And he basically said he didn't care if I was interested, it was the new readers, the people who'd never bought an Iron Man comic before, that he cared about grabbing. He didn't think it was worth the effort to reach veteran comic readers like me. Maybe CoH Freedom is going that same route. If so, whatever, I'll just let them know what I don't like, and they can take it or leave it.
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I like this idea. I was never a big fan of the Jailbreak tutorial on CoV (mainly because the "defeat a couple prisoners to show me what you're made of" mission seemed extremely lame), but this kind of "Start with Outbreak, then ramp up to the Coming Storm" idea isn't bad at all. Instead of being a showcase for the game's basic functionality, maybe the Coming Storm portion could feature teaming, giant monsters, moral choice, and other stuff. And players could choose to either go to Outbreak, go directly to Coming Storm, or do Outbreak and skip Coming Storm to go directly to Atlas or Mercy -- whatever they preferred.
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
What I suggest is putting the old tutorial (or a similar one that teaches the necessary game skills) back in and using the new tutorial as part of the game's story line. Finish the tutorial, talk to Coyote and advance to Galaxy City (this would be the only choice) where you find yourself fighting for your life against the Shivan invasion only to barely escape to Atlas Park where you begin your heroic journey using all the skills you learned in the tutorial and tested in the new "Starter Zone".
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considering the first twenty levels of the game are relatively brain off easy, I'd agree you're basically in training for those twenty
Sheesh.... some of the replies in here are ridiculous... "No, NewScrapper, you shouldn't dislike the new tutorial!!".
Give it up. He does dislike it! And he's allowed to! 
The only thing you were "wrong" about was possibly the Shivans.
No biggie.
I like both designs and would love to see something like the ones we knew already come around in something new and I'd like to see completely different ones introduced some more.
Anyway...
While I understand where you're coming from with not liking that the action starts right away while you haven't set up your trays and options, I don't think you should harp on that.
It's one or the other, and they wanted to go with action right away.
I can understand that. They're shooting to grab players with excitement. You find it counter productive, but I'd imagine some people's anticipation (and delay, to set things up) adds to the excitement and urge to go go go!
Nothing wrong with you not liking that, but yeah, it's entirely subjective and not necessarily a huge deal... I think it is the rest of what you find wrong with it that stands out as real problems with the new tutorial.
I agree with most of what you say.
I find the lack of right clicking and/or info for the other heroes to be disappointing and a missed opportunity. Not a huge deal, but... why not? It's backstory and, if someone checks, they obviously want to know, so it's a good thing to provide that info (just like you can find it everywhere else in the game).
Ah, but that's my main problem with the tutorial and all of the new training missions I have run so far...
It's not like the rest of the game.
It's not introducing you to the game that I know. The one that I've been playing and loving.
Things are kind of weird... enemies that aren't going to defeat me, things that I can't get info about when I try, things I can't click, non-instanced weird areas through doors that... my own teammate couldn't come into with me (That is NOT CoH!!)... Only one starting contact and story arc...
And yeah, I completely agree. A tutorial that taught things inside of a few minutes is better than the new experience and a training system (IF people stick with it) that lasts until level 20!
Level 20?? That is odd. I mean, a cool idea, if you want to go through such a beginning phase, but actual lessons about enhancements and such not coming until so late? That seems useless.
As far as people don't want to learn and all that jazz about people being different and not wanting or following more in-depth (if you can really call it that) instructions... Screw that. This game wasn't dead. Plenty of people don't mind that sort of stuff. It didn't turn US off... AND... What in the blazes makes anyone think that people with such little attention spans will stick with the training missions through to level 20 when they can join AE teams or run the sewer trials or whatever comes along and hits them over the head (and they start getting levels faster)?
Whatever, I'm not up in arms about the change. I do get what they were going for and I am not convinced that it is going to backfire on them... But I don't like it and don't feel like it is better nor necessarily done well.
I like the attempt at the pace, I like the comicbook introduction, I like the moral choice, I like the scenario and enemies (although, just running through something so epic to escape is not my idea of a great intro... but hey, it's not MY game!), but I that's about it. I find the rest to be pretty poor for the reasons stated.
I do very much like Golden Girl's idea about some added bits to learn about clicking on glowies and enhancements and inspirations.
Nothing wrong with the first section being a mad dash... then the moral choice... then train and then you have to run into a building to save/steal some equipment... maybe a combat encounter in there too... then head over to the next part, as is... and finish the tutorial the rest of the way as it is already.
Boom... that might be a nice mesh and a successful tutorial experience.
I like trying to hook people with the excitement and experience. I don't argue with that approach. I just think it is executed a bit too vapidly.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I enjoyed the new tutorial for what it was worth. Hadn't played the old one in ages since I didn't have to. Probably won't play this one anymore now that I've run it twice.
While I liked the overall feeling of it, the rush of battle and all. I'll agree that rush makes you feel pressured to hurry and get into it. Much like STO's tutorial with it's blaring alarms etc. Not a fan of that as the very first impression.
I enjoyed the massive battle with the Shiv but realized it's because those types of events happen very rarely in the game. When I realized that I started asking myself if it was wise to put an epic encounter in the tutorial.
As it stands now, my Hero/Villain takes out a giant beast with little help at level 2. I then go to bashing thugs skulls in and unless I run a sewer trial, I won't encounter another large threat for how many levels? 40+?
Could be a little misleading to true newbies.
I'd also like a little backstory on BaB's and crew. Even being familiar with them, I right clicked to read up on them as any new player would.
That said, I've been soloing the Twinshot arc and I must say it's been really fun so far. Informative without being in your face and actually helps to integrate new players, making them feel connected to the city from an early level.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Sounds like something a little ridiculous to nitpick over, and kind of even sounds like you're creating an issue out of thin air.
Just to toss out there, I played with a couple friends who were relatively new to the game. They didn't have any of these feelings you speak of, and we managed to get into the battle after a minute and still had plenty of fun and they understood all they needed to.