What would you do to make Keyes fun?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-08-24 14:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I can't stand Keyes. I've tried it twice and failed to finish it. The first time, everyone quit near the end. The second time, the server crashed also near the end.
The endless trips to the Hospital made me so frustrated. The constant drain was horrifying. We can get a radiation belt for radiation protection in the old respec missions but we can't get a simple protection we'd have to refresh once it ran out to protect us from that nightmare? All I did was die die die on my +3 Inv/Ice tanker, and that's not cool.
Edit: Suggestions: Pulse Protection Belts in the Hospital. They last for 3 to 5 minutes. When it wears off and you die, you can grab another in the hospital and head right on out back to the fight.
AKA: Ath BS/SD Brute (Hero)
"The Fall and Rise of Athanatos" Arc ID: 521712
Outcast Cooler - "Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't."
I've never run Keyes, but after reading about it, and reading comments, I conclude that there's only 1 way to make it fun.
Delete it. I'm certainly never going to run it based on what I've read!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
I like Keyes a lot. They can go ahead and delete the Under Ground trial though :P I hate that thing.
|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I've never run Keyes, but after reading about it, and reading comments, I conclude that there's only 1 way to make it fun.
Delete it. I'm certainly never going to run it based on what I've read! |
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
I love challenges and it's refreshing to get something that can be a ****** - the trouble is I really don't like this trial.
I'm not completely sure what I dislike it so much - perhaps because it's so overwhelming and it's tough to get to know what you need to do and to get everyone else there. It stopped being interestingly challenging a while back and now it's just a pain and it's hard to get people interested in it.
It does seem to be the least popular of all the incarnate content, so that suggests the balance isn't right and it does need tweaking.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Note to devs - this doesn't mean upping the reward again - it means FIXING THE TRIAL.
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
It does seem to be the least popular of all the incarnate content, so that suggests the balance isn't right and it does need tweaking.
|
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
Quote:
I don't know. I think now it suffers far more from a case of bad press than anything else.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Note to devs - this doesn't mean upping the reward again - it means FIXING THE TRIAL.
|
May just be a case of differing personal opinion, but I really don't like the UG trial [in COX] that much, yet it's getting a very good bit of play time now.
Let's Dance!
Quote:
Antimatter pulse. That's my complaint with the trial as a whole. Of course, Disintegration is almost impossible to keep track of - just because you see them shout it, doesn't mean you can find their name in the league (my league window is usually small due to MSR runs).
|
Originally Posted by reiella
I don't know. I think now it suffers far more from a case of bad press than anything else.
May just be a case of differing personal opinion, but I really don't like the UG trial [in COX] that much, yet it's getting a very good bit of play time now. |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
Quote:
Folks fullhealing AoH because they don't realize they're confused bugs me far more than the disintegration fails. And the pulse isn't as annoying to me as the spore infestation [ mostly as I have to load up on BFs/Clarion instead of Greens/Rebirth ].
|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Antimatter pulse. That's my complaint with the trial as a whole. Of course, Disintegration is almost impossible to keep track of - just because you see them shout it, doesn't mean you can find their name in the league (my league window is usually small due to MSR runs).
|
Let's Dance!
Quote:
^|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Antimatter pulse. That's my complaint with the trial as a whole. Of course, Disintegration is almost impossible to keep track of - just because you see them shout it, doesn't mean you can find their name in the league (my league window is usually small due to MSR runs).
|
Getting rid of the smegging pulse would make the trial 100% more palatable to the likes of me.
Which would be an increase from the 0% it is right now...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
The UGT doesn't require much more league-wide coordination than the BAF or Lambda do. Probably the most complex, multi-role activity in the whole trial is the "trap" room. Most other problems require mostly that the league be able to pump out high levels of effective DPS, and that individual players do reasonable things in response to big red warnings. The only real league-wide requirement is that there is enough Confuse protection/resistance.|
Originally Posted by reiella
May just be a case of differing personal opinion, but I really don't like the UG trial [in COX] that much, yet it's getting a very good bit of play time now.
|
My feeling is that a league of players with strong characters can largely brute through the UGT acting as soloists with a common goal, where they have to depend more heavily on one another in Keyes. I think getting that coordination is much harder in a PuG. I think that creates a negative feedback - some people who might be good at it don't want to run it because they don't trust a PuG to succeed, meaning those who do try it are denied those people who might help them succeed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I've never run Keyes, but after reading about it, and reading comments, I conclude that there's only 1 way to make it fun.
Delete it. I'm certainly never going to run it based on what I've read! |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
I like Keyes a lot. They can go ahead and delete the Under Ground trial though :P I hate that thing.
|
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------
Now that we have a trial that feels quite opposite from Keyes in the Underground Trial, I'm pretty okay with how it currently works. I think both represent outliers of fun and challenging, getting praise from harder core players and something for others to try once or twice.
I don't know if the game should have many more carbon copies of these particular trial dynamics. But I think they should exist in some rare form again as unique outliers of gameplay.
Quote:
People don't like Keyes. It won't matter how many Emp merits the developers throw at players, the basic point is this:|
Originally Posted by reiella
I don't know. I think now it suffers far more from a case of bad press than anything else.
May just be a case of differing personal opinion, but I really don't like the UG trial [in COX] that much, yet it's getting a very good bit of play time now. |
A lot of players don't like the trial.
Now if I can get a decent team, one that acts like a group, Keyes CAN be smooth. However, I tend to get that type of group less than 1/2 the time (if that much). At which point Keyes becomes an unmitigated mess. There is no middle ground where it can be "okay". I've resorted to making a popmenu to keep all my keyes instructions handy because I have to repeat them with nearly every trial, and some generic instructions for timing (which often get ignored anyway).
As to the underground, yes, I macro'd instructions, but I'm already cutting back on them as players are getting the hang of the trial in TWO WEEKS. It has been TWO MONTHS that Keyes has been available and it is still experiencing problems.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I think it's great that the Keyes trial exists. But the extreme difficulty in getting a team together for it, combined with the fact that many people have avoided it so they don't know how to run it, and the many ways in which the trial can fail or become disasterous. Just makes it a nil issue at the end of the day.
I would even like to run it, but I've never seen it being formed outside of the first couple weeks of it going live. I only ran it once during the early beta preview of it.
Content is only good if it is actually being used. If it isn't being used, then what the frell was the point in making it in the first place?
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
Yep. Leave them as is. However, making any more similar to Keyes would be a mistake.
|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Now that we have a trial that feels quite opposite from Keyes in the Underground Trial, I'm pretty okay with how it currently works. I think both represent outliers of fun and challenging, getting praise from harder core players and something for others to try once or twice.
I don't know if the game should have many more carbon copies of these particular trial dynamics. But I think they should exist in some rare form again as unique outliers of gameplay. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Reading this reminds me of why I never run "Cavern of Transcendance" anymore.
Heh, I can see the next iTrial, 32 terminals to click similtaneously within a 5 second window. If all are not done at the same time, the trial fails. For added challenge, the mission map is disabled and chat does not function. Snowy: I do hope the devs decide to fix Keyes. |
...You know, every time someone complains about a Trial, I symphasize at times.
Then I remember that horrible abomination.
UGH.
One person drops and it's over.
Simple fact. If you need a 5-10 minute briefing from someone before running the trial just to know what the hell you're meant to do, it's too complicated.
This isn't EVE, we're not playing Spaceships & Spreadsheets. This is a casual, pick up and play MMO.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
For as long as I've played this game, I've known that there are two kinds of teams. The first kind are teams where everyone is working together as a team: every member seems to intuitively know what the team needs, and does it. Very little "instruction" seems to happen. The other kind are teams where eight soloers happen to be in the same instance, and if the other seven people disconnected or phased out of the instance it would hardly matter.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Simple fact. If you need a 5-10 minute briefing from someone before running the trial just to know what the hell you're meant to do, it's too complicated.
|
*Most* of the PUGs in City of Heroes are the latter. People think good teaming is whatever they did yesterday on a team because it worked, when in City of Heroes rolling your face across your keyboard will work 99% of the time.
What the trials are requiring is teaming of the first type, and punishing teaming of the second type. And many players simply cannot adapt to that. They either don't want that kind of gameplay, or don't even realize they weren't doing it in the first place.
When the only two trials were BAF and Lambda, I thought that the players would eventually adapt. But with Keyes and Underground, its clear the learning curve is too steep for many players. Its easy to blame the devs for that, and I can certainly blame them for things like disintegrating frozen players. But I'm finding it difficult to blame them for things like players forgetting instructions they were told ten minutes ago or incorrectly executing an instruction on par with "shoot that, don't shoot that."
If its not done right, it might not be fun, but the notion that any task in the game that requires significant thought or the level of understanding of the task that requires a few minutes of time to explain and process is just too hard for "casual" gameplay suggests a level of braindead that I think should not be synonymous with casual play.
The problem isn't complexity, its that the devs need to focus their design energy on making fun complexity. There has to be a learning curve within the trials that rewards stepping up to the complexity, rather than punishing people for every little mistake. Personally, I don't think the trials require any major level of thought to do correctly. But there's not enough balance between rewarding good tactics and punishing tactical errors.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I really wish I could find more of the first group on Triumph.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For as long as I've played this game, I've known that there are two kinds of teams. The first kind are teams where everyone is working together as a team: every member seems to intuitively know what the team needs, and does it. Very little "instruction" seems to happen. The other kind are teams where eight soloers happen to be in the same instance, and if the other seven people disconnected or phased out of the instance it would hardly matter.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But with Keyes and Underground, its clear the learning curve is too steep for many players.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its easy to blame the devs for that, and I can certainly blame them for things like disintegrating frozen players.
|
They didn't learn, they just stopped playing the content. So group 1 is been through Keyes and are looking for the next challenge while group 2 is either still struggling or just ignoring Keyes.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But I'm finding it difficult to blame them for things like players forgetting instructions they were told ten minutes ago or incorrectly executing an instruction on par with "shoot that, don't shoot that."
|
After 3 calls to regroup at the hospital, I still had to teleport 3 players away from Hami during that trial. I probably should put them on a permanent "no-invite" list, because I'm tired of this crap.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But there's not enough balance between rewarding good tactics and punishing tactical errors.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
The first time I ran Keyes, the only instructions I got were during the trial, the leader would shout out what needed done on each stage as we hit it. Detailed instructions aren't really necessary for any of the trials to succeed. For getting badges, yes, work out the details and give instructions before hitting the queue. But for succeeding at the trial in general, you just need people that will listen to what needs done as you go and will work together to do it. Not have 24 soloers as Arcanville points out.
|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Simple fact. If you need a 5-10 minute briefing from someone before running the trial just to know what the hell you're meant to do, it's too complicated.
This isn't EVE, we're not playing Spaceships & Spreadsheets. This is a casual, pick up and play MMO. |
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------
Quote:
********. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For as long as I've played this game, I've known that there are two kinds of teams. The first kind are teams where everyone is working together as a team: every member seems to intuitively know what the team needs, and does it. Very little "instruction" seems to happen. The other kind are teams where eight soloers happen to be in the same instance, and if the other seven people disconnected or phased out of the instance it would hardly matter.
|
No one knows what to do on Keyes "intuitively". No choice is made in that trial based on an understanding of the mechanics of the game coupled with a desired outcome. First off, this is because so much of the trial ignores the core mechanics of the game, and secondly, because nothing about the trial makes the desired outcome clear. Those are the required starting points for "intuitively" working together, and both are missing in Keyes.
Quote:
The only part i didnt know how to do on the 1st run of the Keyes trial was once you had taken down the 3 reactors, so yes, i did need that part explaining to myself. It actually took me longer to set up a macro key for me than it was for the explanation of what to do was given to me.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
********.
No one knows what to do on Keyes "intuitively". No choice is made in that trial based on an understanding of the mechanics of the game coupled with a desired outcome. First off, this is because so much of the trial ignores the core mechanics of the game, and secondly, because nothing about the trial makes the desired outcome clear. Those are the required starting points for "intuitively" working together, and both are missing in Keyes. |
Face it, if all the trials were meant to be "pick up and play" then it would be "steam roller" along the lines of the ITF/LGTF (although to be honest, even the Hamidon has its own gimmicks that could possibly need explaining as well)
Hell, even the Lord Recluse Strike Force has a few gimmicks that ideally you need to explain to people at the start of the last mission, but only if they hadnt done it previously...
*shrugs* each to their own, but if all the game was reduced to was "sack of HP" I would be out of here... and yes, i have left the game previously just for that reason alone (as well as the lack of End Game pre Issue 19)
I agree with the poster above that Keyes is a victim of bad press.
Every Keyes I've ran, I have had a lot of people tell me how fun it was afterwards and wondered why it wasn't played more often.
Keyes takes a leader giving orders, and people to follow orders, you don't get one, your chance of winning gets slim. There is zero problem in that.
Reading through the thread, most of the problems people have with the trial isn't the trial, it's just mainly dealing with people who don't know how to play the trial and losing.
08-28-2011 20:10:14 Devastation Beam Generator has defeated Decoy
You might ask "What is Decoy Duty?" Well I haven't fully tested this out, but Decoy Duty is to be out of the hospital, away from everyone else (no being above another player) and away from the truck depot (out of line of sight is best). Have one of the "decoys" do a 5 minute warning of the Obliteration Beam so everyone can look at the ground and be prepared to move. If they are targeted, they'll need to move out of the way.
Having another decoy or hospital sitter call out health warnings at 85-55-25 health.
Oh, the Line of Sight thing. Apparently the only people targeted by Disintegration are those in Line of Sight of Anti-Matter. So if you aren't visible to him, you won't get disintegrated.
I still don't like this idea as it places the "decoys" firmly in the role of a sidekick. However it is an alternative to sitting on the bench, so to speak. It doesn't let the individual character shine.
It comes down to the fact that if you have 5-8 competent players, these badges would be simpler to obtain than with the stated "admittance" requirements of 12-24 players. Even then, the trial still wouldn't be fun.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters