What would you do to make Keyes fun?
Before every trial (Lam, BAF, or Keyes), we shout out in league and tell everyone to tag F7. If they don't, and won't listen when someone tells them how to add League chat to their tab, they get booted and replaced (or sometimes not replaced).
This is an incarnate trial for level 50 players. If you can't listen to a leader on the most basic of tasks, you have no business being on my team. |
Note that I'm referring to standard "lets finish and get a reward pop-up", not a master run. I still would never behave this way for a master run, but I would not begrudge others as much for doing so.
The very notion that anyone would want content that promotes such behavior by league leaders bothers me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Keep wondering, buck-o
![]() (I haven't had the chance to examine the logs of that trial yet) |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
08-28-2011 20:51:15 [League] Lady Arcana: TARGETED FOR DISINTEGRATION, ASSISTANCE REQUESTED 08-28-2011 20:51:23 You activated the Heal Other power. 08-28-2011 20:51:23 HIT Lady Arcana! Your Heal Other power is autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:25 You heal Lady Arcana 529.05 points of damage. 08-28-2011 20:51:25 Anti-Matter HITS you! Cosmic Burst power had a 95.00% chance to hit and rolled a 47.45. 08-28-2011 20:51:26 Anti-Matter blasts you with his Cosmic Burst for 2404.55 points of energy damage and reduces your Defense! 08-28-2011 20:51:26 You are unable to use any powers! 08-28-2011 20:51:27 Heal Other is recharged. 08-28-2011 20:51:28 You are unable to use any powers! 08-28-2011 20:51:29 Antimatter Pulse Generator HITS you! Entanglement power was autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:29 You are unable to use any powers! 08-28-2011 20:51:29 You are Beta entangled. Avoid contact with Alpha entangled allies! 08-28-2011 20:51:29 HIT White Succubus! Your EntangledAuraB power is autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:29 White Succubus HITS you! EntangledAuraB power was autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:30 You are now able to Escape from most effects. 08-28-2011 20:51:30 You can use powers again. 08-28-2011 20:51:31 You activated the Heal Other power. 08-28-2011 20:51:31 HIT Lady Arcana! Your Heal Other power is autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:31 Readying Heal Other. 08-28-2011 20:51:32 You heal Lady Arcana 529.05 points of damage. 08-28-2011 20:51:33 HIT Lady Arcana! Your Alpha Interaction power is autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:33 Lady Arcana HITS you! Beta Interaction power was autohit. 08-28-2011 20:51:33 You are caught in a Beta Interaction with a nearby ally. Move away to prevent further harm! 08-28-2011 20:51:33 You are no longer flying. 08-28-2011 20:51:36 Heal Other is recharged. 08-28-2011 20:51:39 [League] HotPepper: Beam....RUN! 08-28-2011 20:51:39 [League] Caravan: Lady Arcana has defeated White Succubus
This however does bring up a point. The combat channel isn't displaying any of the following:
Disintergration beam, except the pulse that kills you.
Entanglement damage/debuffs.
And the trial is yet another example of Decoy-Hate:
08-28-2011 20:10:14 Devastation Beam Generator has defeated Decoy
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Just ran a Bunker Buster/Avoid Green Stuff attempt on Pinnacle (we got Buster).
Trial starts out fun, great opening monologue and has a brisk pace but really breaks down around the third time you have to clear a reactor; if you didn't have to drag Anti-Matter around for two reactors it might be a little more palatable. The pulse gets old after the first few minutes as well, not sure how you can allay that without lowering the pulse damage or adding a little more time between pulses without making the encounter more trivial.
Overall it is fun, just seems a lot more tedious than the other two and a lot more work than the other two as well.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
This level of being a whip-cracking taskmaster is so far beyond what I'm interested in doing to play an MMO it's mind boggling that others do play that way. I form BAFs and Lambdas, and I do occasionally ***** people out for doing really stupid things, like completely ignore instructions or basacally not participating. Despite my willingness to get on people's cases at times, If I witnessed you do this F7 thing, even if you did not kick me (you would not have to), I would one-star you and never do participate in anything you were in charge of. You might get things done, but I'm not so desperate to get things done that I want to be exposed to that sort of approach to doing it.
Note that I'm referring to standard "lets finish and get a reward pop-up", not a master run. I still would never behave this way for a master run, but I would not begrudge others as much for doing so. The very notion that anyone would want content that promotes such behavior by league leaders bothers me. |
The main reason why we do it is so that we make sure no one is AFK and everyone has League chat in their chat box. People forget to add it on new (or old) alts (I've done it) and it's a real easy way to check and send a reminder tell to add it before the trial starts.
Occasionally we have a few people who don't listen to/afk during instructions and wander off, but in pretty much every case if we restate the instructions in LC they come back and do as asked.
I imagine it's quite a bit difficult to run any trial if instructions aren't even getting to the player.
I'm not a slave driver, really. Just like to make sure everyone can hear League chat!
Wow, I didn't realize that saying "Everyone hit F7 please!" in league chat would piss you off so much. Have only ever had to kick 1 person and they weren't replying to tells that consisted of something like "Hey, are you there?"
The main reason why we do it is so that we make sure no one is AFK and everyone has League chat in their chat box. People forget to add it on new (or old) alts (I've done it) and it's a real easy way to check and send a reminder tell to add it before the trial starts. Occasionally we have a few people who don't listen to/afk during instructions and wander off, but in pretty much every case if we restate the instructions in LC they come back and do as asked. I imagine it's quite a bit difficult to run any trial if instructions aren't even getting to the player. I'm not a slave driver, really. Just like to make sure everyone can hear League chat! |
Even if people have league chat turned on, in the heat of the trial with people looking at many different things all at once its often the case they simply get tunnel visioned and stop looking at chat in the middle of the trial, even if they were looking at it before launch. I've noticed that if something changes the circumstances of the trial enough for the leader to start giving out new orders, in *any* of the trials there are a substantial number of players who very obviously didn't read it, and weren't even looking at chat at all.
The simple fact of the matter is I've seen lots of trials - again, not just Keyes - where the leader will ask if everyone knows what to do, if everyone has done it before, if anyone has any questions. No one says anything, because they are embarrassed to speak up. Then they start asking questions in the trial when its clear they are so lost they can't even figure out what anyone is doing at all and aren't likely to simply pick it up as they go along.
When that happens, you can try to detect it and weed them out as soon as possible, or you can try to roll with it and hopefully get them up to speed quickly and reasonably. We could be much better, but Triumph has a history of at least trying to be inclusive, going all the way back to the earliest (level 50) Hami raids conducted on the server.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Just ran a Bunker Buster/Avoid Green Stuff attempt on Pinnacle (we got Buster).
Trial starts out fun, great opening monologue and has a brisk pace but really breaks down around the third time you have to clear a reactor; if you didn't have to drag Anti-Matter around for two reactors it might be a little more palatable. The pulse gets old after the first few minutes as well, not sure how you can allay that without lowering the pulse damage or adding a little more time between pulses without making the encounter more trivial. Overall it is fun, just seems a lot more tedious than the other two and a lot more work than the other two as well. |
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
![](http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h7/Amygdala27/sigglow-1.png)
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
Wow, I didn't realize that saying "Everyone hit F7 please!" in league chat would piss you off so much. Have only ever had to kick 1 person and they weren't replying to tells that consisted of something like "Hey, are you there?"
|
What you presented here is that you're kicking them perhaps because they're AFK.
While the end result may be nearly the same, the attitudes the two are pretty widely separated. Kicking someone who's not present to make room for someone who is present is harsh, but (IMO) reasonable. Kicking someone, say, who's present, but who doesn't follow instructions to hit F7, is (IMO) harsh and unreasonable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
You don't have to drag him around for 2 reactors. For the second reactor, you can go ahead and start charging terminals as soon as a Power Cell drops from a Goliath before Anti Matter arrives. I have seen all 10 terminals charged before he gets there. Even if you don't get all 10, getting 6 or so cuts down on the time you need to drag him around. Same goes for the third reactor, the only difference being the terminals must be clear of mobs.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Two changes would have to happen for me to touch Keyes.
1. The pulse has to go. Period. That's not "challenge", it's fake difficulty - making the game arbitrarily hard by adding the biggest DoT effect in any MMO on the market. This leads to a lot of RNG deaths when coupled with all the other damage effects flying around throughout the trial, which go directly against any concept of "fun".
2. The timefreeze and Keyes' other gimmicks need to lock each other out. Again, RNG deaths and no fun to be had. The number of mechanics in the fight is fine, IMO, but randomly screwing people out of badges and whatnot by combining them in unsurvivable chains is anything but.
No, I'm frustrated with the trial in general. The badges add to that frustration though.
There have been times where I couldn't get the 12 players needed to START the trial, let alone 24 to fill the league. Sometimes I think the developers share the little world of Virtue & Freedom and expect other servers to be able to gather enough players to do these trials. That is not, and should never be, the answer. If that is the developer's answer as well, I want them to move the 20 slots I've applied to Triumph as well. |
I'd argue telling folks to change servers when they can't get enough people for an unpopular activity is probably the dumbest pieces of advice I've seen on these forums in 6+ years and that's saying something.
Logically you change the activity that's so unpopular if you want more people.
Telling folks to change servers misses the obvious so much it's not even funny.
EDIT: I've also for some strange reason seen many players get this idea that every server has the pop of Virtue and Freedom also. I can't fathom where this idea comes from that EVERY server has (or should even have) 16-24 players just standing around twiddling their thumbs ready to do content at your whim. I'll avoid posting what I really think about this mentality. Hint: I don't think highly of it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I'd just be happy to see the Pulse go. That's not challenge, not in the slightest. It's just cheap. And cheap is never fun (in games)
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Wow, I didn't realize that saying "Everyone hit F7 please!" in league chat would piss you off so much.
|
Still not sure how pressing a key is "tagging", but at least I understand the instruction now.
I've been on those Keyes runs where most of the terminals were charged before he got there. That still left me standing around and picking my nose while people dragged him to the rest of the terminals. Clearing a mob around a terminal is a job for three people, if you're feeling generous. Everybody else still gets to stand around and pick their noses.
|
For example, at the second reactor, if all of the terminals aren't charged by the time Anti Matter arrives, there are usually more Goliaths that can be defeated. So if you're not using a Cell to charge up a terminal, you could be helping with that. If a taunter has Anti Matter positioned at a terminal, this allows people to pop up for a second, use their Power Cells, and head right back down to continue fighting. For the third reactor, usually one team can gather the glowies while the other teams are clearing the mobs around the terminals. The mobs around the terminals respawn, so there is generally more fighting to be done there as well.
If I had to pick a reactor that seems to breed the most amount of 'standing around nose-picking', as popular a pastime as that is, I'd probably pick the third one. But I think people could afford to put some creative thought into how to complete this reactor more efficiently rather than adjust the mechanics of the reactor itself.
![](http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h7/Amygdala27/sigglow-1.png)
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
You know, I'm confused by the fact that people are angry with the Keyes fight. I've never died when fighting him. (obliteration beam is easily avoided, entanglements are weak and disintegrate is easily solved by greens)
The problems I've had has always been with lack of tanking skills.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Two changes would have to happen for me to touch Keyes.
1. The pulse has to go. Period. That's not "challenge", it's fake difficulty - making the game arbitrarily hard by adding the biggest DoT effect in any MMO on the market. This leads to a lot of RNG deaths when coupled with all the other damage effects flying around throughout the trial, which go directly against any concept of "fun". 2. The timefreeze and Keyes' other gimmicks need to lock each other out. Again, RNG deaths and no fun to be had. The number of mechanics in the fight is fine, IMO, but randomly screwing people out of badges and whatnot by combining them in unsurvivable chains is anything but. |
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
2. The timefreeze and Keyes' other gimmicks need to lock each other out. Again, RNG deaths and no fun to be had. The number of mechanics in the fight is fine, IMO, but randomly screwing people out of badges and whatnot by combining them in unsurvivable chains is anything but.
|
If people hate this trial so much, I can't wait to see how hate is going to be leveld on the Underground trial with the regening war walker fight and the Avatar of Hamidon's confuse AoE.
Liberty Server (@enderbean)
Arcs on Live
#1460 Hometown Rivalry
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
You know, I'm confused by the fact that people are angry with the Keyes fight. I've never died when fighting him. (obliteration beam is easily avoided, entanglements are weak and disintegrate is easily solved by greens)
The problems I've had has always been with lack of tanking skills. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If people hate this trial so much, I can't wait to see how hate is going to be leveld on the Underground trial with the regening war walker fight and the Avatar of Hamidon's confuse AoE.
|
Given a choice between two long trials to run for two Empyrean merits, I would currently run the Underground trial over Keyes every time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
1. The pulse has to go. Period. That's not "challenge", it's fake difficulty - making the game arbitrarily hard by adding the biggest DoT effect in any MMO on the market. This leads to a lot of RNG deaths when coupled with all the other damage effects flying around throughout the trial, which go directly against any concept of "fun".
|
I've done the Keyes trial exactly one time, on launch day, on Virtue, using my heavily IO'd and Incarnate-slotted storm/elec/elec defender. Skjor is simply a monster, as some of you may have seen if we've teamed. She's designed and played as my card-carrying thunder goddess, and she lives up to that billing.
We succeeded at the Keyes trial easily, despite most of us going through it for the very first time in that run, having skipped the beta for once. We had leadership who communicated what we were looking for at each stage of the game and we knew where to go and what to do/not do. Hell, I don't think anyone even died once it came time to fight Keyes himself.
For more than a few of us, it wasn't fun though. At all.
I can accept being defeated by masses of enemies or powerful AVs. I can accept that my characters aren't really meant to do the things they often do, and that I can get in over my head with them if I'm not paying attention. I can accept that Skjor can be defeated if I'm not bringing my "A" game that day (and sometimes even when I am). That's part of the game.
What wasn't fun was exiting the hospital only to lose half of my hit points on several occasions to auto-hit, unresisted pulses of damage. Or being hit while in the Hospital. Or being held while in the supposedly safe zone of the Hospital.
It told me that the devs realized too late (or didn't realize at all?) that they'd make us completely OP'd with the use of Incarnate powers and now had to resort to cheating and doing things outside the game mechanics to provide a challenge. If they have to do things that break the game's previously established rules to create any kind of challenge for players, they've made some egregious errors long before reaching this point IMO.
As far as raising the rewards goes, if it's less than triple-digit Emps (yeah, seriously, call me when it's awarding 100+ and maybe I'll join a few), I won't do this Trial again without a really good reason. I play to have fun and for me, this ain't it.
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I see tons of BAFs and LAMs being run but I rarely see anyone on my server attempting Keyes. I did keys twice when it first came out and have not since then.
It is a co-op, level 35-50 TF. It is the most accessible TF in the game. Nobody loses any powers, both sides can participate at the same time (increasing the total pool of players), and everyone 35+ (a massive level range when considering time, and the fact that most people feel leveling slows down around 35) can run it. When the LGTF was 35-50, it was far more popular than it is now.
This level of accessibility also creates a snowball effect-- people are more willing to run ITFs because people are more willing to run ITFs. People hate standing around waiting to form TFs and trials. There is very little stand-around-and-wait time when forming an ITF because so many people want to do it, and people want to do it because they know there's so little standing around time!
As far as end-game TFs and ease, Kahn is hands down the easiest and fastest end-game TF. Why don't people run it non-stop? Besides being hero-only and 45-50, it's boring.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA