What would you do to make Keyes fun?
By
Agahnim,
Posted on: 2011-08-24 14:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Keyes is already fun. The changes on test are gonna make it another snorefest though.
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It's still an unwanted cheap shot. When the Praetorian mobs and Antimatter himself can down even a fully IO'd and Incarnated character ridiculously fast (Bots/Traps MM in my case) having ANOTHER, totally unblockable source of damage is just un-needed and a fake difficulty.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The pulse damage on Beta for Issue 21.5 has drastically been reduced.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Fun is subjective. For me, Keyes is the most godawful, un-fun pile of cheap grind ever, where I might as well sit back and watch for all the good my character can actually do. |
Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
Keyes is already fun. The changes on test are gonna make it another snorefest though.
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I might even be able to play it with I21.5, who knows?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Rest in Peace Keyes, you were the most fun piece of content I've played since returning.
But alas, the majority want to change who you are, so therefore it shall be.
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I'm curious. Do you run Keyes with one particular character, or a variety of very different characters?|
Originally Posted by TheProtector
Rest in Peace Keyes, you were the most fun piece of content I've played since returning.
But alas, the majority want to change who you are, so therefore it shall be. |
I haven't run Keyes many times, but it's not bad if you have a character that has one or more these particular characteristics: a fast-recharging self-heal, good resistance to energy damage, the ability to fly, an AoE heal and a single-target heal, and so on.
But many characters have no healing capabilities at all, except for inspirations, and getting automatically hammered for most of your hit points every minute or so isn't "fun" for many people. Having to chase around another character spamming an AoE heal isn't "fun." Getting automatically held isn't "fun."
Some of these problems might be dealt with by any character through the appropriate Incarnate powers. But if you don't have any Incarnate powers yet, or don't want to take those powers because you have no use for those powers outside the Keyes trial, Keyes may not be particularly fun for you.
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Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
Keyes is already fun. The changes on test are gonna make it another snorefest though.
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Originally Posted by TheProtector
Rest in Peace Keyes, you were the most fun piece of content I've played since returning.
But alas, the majority want to change who you are, so therefore it shall be. |
I think the fact that the Devs decided to modify Keyes pretty much shows us that they were convinced it needed to be changed. They don't go through the effort to change things like this just based on a handful of suggestions or for a few random "whiners" here or there.
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I think you'll enjoy the MoM Trial |
Originally Posted by TheProtector
Rest in Peace Keyes, you were the most fun piece of content I've played since returning.
But alas, the majority want to change who you are, so therefore it shall be. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's a Ministry of Magic Trial? I thought the Potterverse MMO was a non-starter.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think you'll enjoy the MoM Trial
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Ba-dum...tish!
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
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Even with changes, I am still not running Keyes.|
Originally Posted by TheProtector
Rest in Peace Keyes, you were the most fun piece of content I've played since returning.
But alas, the majority want to change who you are, so therefore it shall be. |
Any new trials of similar dye, I won't be playing those either. I don't find being Held in the hospital and then killed before I can even get out the door, "fun." Hopefully the people have spoken, and we won't have to fight this fight again.
But if the developers didnt get that message, those of us who detest that sort of thing can just keep on not running Keyes and anything similar. The message here being, "please create something fun to play."
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I've ran it on a view characters, granted the heal-less characters have to walk around with a tray full of respites, but I don't find it that bad.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I'm curious. Do you run Keyes with one particular character, or a variety of very different characters?
I haven't run Keyes many times, but it's not bad if you have a character that has one or more these particular characteristics: a fast-recharging self-heal, good resistance to energy damage, the ability to fly, an AoE heal and a single-target heal, and so on. But many characters have no healing capabilities at all, except for inspirations, and getting automatically hammered for most of your hit points every minute or so isn't "fun" for many people. Having to chase around another character spamming an AoE heal isn't "fun." Getting automatically held isn't "fun." Some of these problems might be dealt with by any character through the appropriate Incarnate powers. But if you don't have any Incarnate powers yet, or don't want to take those powers because you have no use for those powers outside the Keyes trial, Keyes may not be particularly fun for you. |
What automatic hold are you talking about? The only automatic hold I can think of is completely avoidable, other than Time Stop, which is only a minor thing.
And I've ran Keyes on a fresh 50 with SO's and still enjoyed it. I know I'm the minority, and I know the change will probably bring more people to play it, which is the dev's goal, but I just view content in a different light. I'm a big atmosphere kind of guy so to me, being bombarded from above for 50% of my health adds this intensity to the trial that I really enjoy, having to drag AM reactor to reactor, having healers to keep on their toes or people stick close to them to provide unity amongst the league(something for instance, BAF doesn't really have, as you tend to just be one body of many) I can see where some gameplay aspects may be frustrating for people, but to me I view them as things that intensify the situation, which makes it enjoyable.
The difficulty/complexity of Keyes would be more or less fine if the objective wasn't to try to make incarnate content replace existing content in the homeostasis of the game. For the game to work, players need something to do even as they approach the "end." Apex isn't the easiest thing in the world either, but we're not expected to run it as our main, every day game activity. It sits in the background as a thing to do from time to time. If I had to do Apex as often as the incarnate system wants me to do Keyes, I would hate it as well.
To put it another way, the problem isn't just the trial, it's that the goal for it is unrealistic. You can have a challenging mission that is run occasionally or homeostatic one that is run frequently but not both at the same time. A very challenging/complex mission is actually fine as long as there are other things to do. And the incarnate content is simultaneously both very limited on options and canabilistic of existing level 50 systems. As I have said in other threads, its burning the candle at both ends. That is unlikely to stop until it's realized that the problem isn't players ignoring Keyes in order to Lambda or BAF, but with the assumption that trials should be the bread and butter of every day game play, replacing rather than adding to what was already there.
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I will point out that it is impossible to be instantly hit with the pulse damage exiting the hospital. The hospital doors open the exact same time as the pulse activates, and is open for 10 seconds while the pulse recharges. That leaves 20 seconds before you have to deal with the pulse after the hospital doors close again.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Even with changes, I am still not running Keyes.
Any new trials of similar dye, I won't be playing those either. I don't find being Held in the hospital and then killed before I can even get out the door, "fun." Hopefully the people have spoken, and we won't have to fight this fight again. |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Back in the day, I wasn't even anywhere near the door when I would get Held and killed in the Hospital, on a Keyes run. Or so I would swear: I was killed so quickly, it was honestly hard to tell what exactly happened. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I will point out that it is impossible to be instantly hit with the pulse damage exiting the hospital. The hospital doors open the exact same time as the pulse activates, and is open for 10 seconds while the pulse recharges. That leaves 20 seconds before you have to deal with the pulse after the hospital doors close again.
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If this killed-in-the-hospital thing has been addressed, that is good. I really have absolutely no desire to try Keyes again, even with adjustments. That is how bad an impression this trial made on me. Its not that I just don't LIKE it.
I literally detest it.
Here's hoping we never see anything even remotely like this again. Perhaps the closest we have now is the Sutter TF, where you have a final mission which is a. steamrolled or b. you gonna be there an hour before everyone quits in disgust. I don't run that one, either.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters