What would you do to make Keyes fun?
QR: Well, the Underground trial is live now, and I've had several chances to assess it up close and personal.
*BAF: fun.
*LAM: less fun, but you do it because you have to, to unlock certain things. At least it lacks that idiotic opening cutscene....
*Keyes: the anteroom of Gaming Hell. Nothing more, nothing less.
*Underground: needs a lot of teamwork. Gives high rewards, and the outcome is improving as people learn the trial. A fun trial and tests the limits of your powers, instead of killing you every 30 seconds. A learning curve is in place vs. sheer chaos, as with Keyes. The maps are beautiful. I'm in.
The moral of the story: [General] you can claim that people are too stupid to run Keyes - and this is the bare essence of many posts in here. General you can claim that Keyes "is a victim of bad press." My rhetorical question is, WHY is it getting bad press?
The "why" is the reason that even with upped rewards, people are avoiding Keyes like the plague, even as they cheerfully get on board to learn how to steamroll UG - and soon, we will be doing just that. Steamrolling it. In fact we are doing it now, in many cases.
So we're too stupid to learn, so we're slandering Keyes, gotcha, point made. The problem is that players are still not running it. Perhaps Keyes needs to be addressed by the development team. I found someone's assertion that some people zone into a trial and "intuitively know what to do," laugh-out-loud funny.
Those players don't have itrial Spidey-sense, they learned the trial during beta. No psychic superpowers are available in real life, that I know of.
********.
No one knows what to do on Keyes "intuitively". No choice is made in that trial based on an understanding of the mechanics of the game coupled with a desired outcome. First off, this is because so much of the trial ignores the core mechanics of the game, and secondly, because nothing about the trial makes the desired outcome clear. Those are the required starting points for "intuitively" working together, and both are missing in Keyes. |
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I don't think the Keyes trial is that bad, though I would like to see the Pulse damage changed, perhaps to a percentage of your current health rather then about half your health per blast. Failing that, make it longer between blasts.
So how do you want to be done? Medium, Well or Extra Crispy?
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The whole "intuition" thing with the Itrials is kind of counter-intuitive [sic] I think. None of them can be won simply by running through the map and hitting stuff - and that is a notable change from the original content where most stuff with a few exceptions is simply "run through the map, bash stuff until it's all dead and achieve the odd secondary objective."
The problem is that the Devs were begged to provide more variation, but when they do, sometimes they haven't quite got the balance perfect. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't in that sense.
Personally I feel that the end game should be tougher than the regular content - by the time players get to Incarnate stage it's hoped they should have a good feel for game play and an extra challenge is exactly what's needed - doubly so given how much the game's been dumbed down over the last few years.
If it's simply a question of people failing to follow instruction, that indicates to me at least that the other trials would fail as frequently as Keyes but that doesn't seem to be the case - but maybe it's simply the additional complexity that throws people and no easy way to mitigate that pulse which does seem to be excessive
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Thelonious Monk
The whole "intuition" thing with the Itrials is kind of counter-intuitive [sic] I think. None of them can be won simply by running through the map and hitting stuff - and that is a notable change from the original content where most stuff with a few exceptions is simply "run through the map, bash stuff until it's all dead and achieve the odd secondary objective."
The problem is that the Devs were begged to provide more variation, but when they do, sometimes they haven't quite got the balance perfect. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't in that sense. Personally I feel that the end game should be tougher than the regular content - by the time players get to Incarnate stage it's hoped they should have a good feel for game play and an extra challenge is exactly what's needed - doubly so given how much the game's been dumbed down over the last few years. If it's simply a question of people failing to follow instruction, that indicates to me at least that the other trials would fail as frequently as Keyes but that doesn't seem to be the case - but maybe it's simply the additional complexity that throws people and no easy way to mitigate that pulse which does seem to be excessive |
I just think Keyes is unique because it packs so many ridiculously unfun mechanics in one place.
I'd suggest adjustments to it so that more people run it more, but apparently getting more people to run it more is a baaaaaad thing, from what I'm getting from some folks in this thread.
Soooo, now I agree leave it as is. Let it rot.
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I'd suggest adjustments to it so that more people run it more, but apparently getting more people to run it more is a baaaaaad thing, from what I'm getting from some folks in this thread. |
Personally I truly hate seeing potentially good content go to waste. One of the things I truly believe is that the Devs put their hearts and souls into this game and to see it going down the crapper for the sake of a tweak is incredibly sad.
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Thelonious Monk
I don't think the Keyes trial is that bad, though I would like to see the Pulse damage changed, perhaps to a percentage of your current health rather then about half your health per blast. Failing that, make it longer between blasts.
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(if your going for anti antimatter, the pulse will do about 90% of your total hp in dmg, but 40% of it is resistable)
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Yeah but then you have to have Energy Resistance in order to resist that extra damage - my Brutes EA - he only gets at most 20% - and that requires me to take both passives, and I only took one. My Blaster's hosed even harder, since it requires respecing OUT of my self rez for ONE iTrial. The devs should make Patron/Ancillary shields work like they do in PVP zones - give resistance to all damage types (except maybe psionic). And maybe scale the damage from the pulse to the AT Threat Level - Brutes/Tankers receive the most, squishies the least.
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instead of starting with unresistable dmg make it 50% energy dmg then if you hurt AM more it adds unresistable dmg (thematically would work too since he is losing control) and balance more cause teams with lot of barriers would be able to stop most of the resistable portion of dmg
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
they could always just reduce or change the pulse lol
instead of starting with unresistable dmg make it 50% energy dmg then if you hurt AM more it adds unresistable dmg (thematically would work too since he is losing control) and balance more cause teams with lot of barriers would be able to stop most of the resistable portion of dmg |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Barrier? You DO realise that most Badge runs require lots of Rebirth - ie most of the league. If this is the case (and every time ive done it, it has been) then having lots of Barrier would leave little to no Clarion or Ageless for the group - and Antimatter packs some mean Debuffs that need blocking if someone's gonna tank him.
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and i was only suggesting barrier if a majority of the dmg in the pulse was made resistable
personally since i finished getting the badges i will never run the trial again anyway unless it undergoes massive changes
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
I don't think the Keyes trial is that bad, though I would like to see the Pulse damage changed, perhaps to a percentage of your current health rather then about half your health per blast. Failing that, make it longer between blasts.
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![Confused](images/smilies/confused.gif)
1/2 is a percentage of your health. 50% to be precise.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Did you mean a smaller percentage?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Perhaps oddly, I find I just don't die very often on Keyes, and also most of the Keyes runs I've been on did not have a preponderance of dying. I've died more times in the less than dozen UG runs I've been on than in all the Keyes runs I've been on combined. And that's on a blaster for most of those Keyes (and all of the UGs so far).
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The biggest complaint I have from that perspective is really the fight with the AV. I dislike that phase much more than I do the AM pulse. If I ran it on more different characters, I might feel differently about that. Given that my /Regen is my main badger and not enough people I play with want anything to do with Keyes beyond getting MO, it seems unlikely I'll experience it on a non-Regen.
I don't think the same characters has died at all on a UGT barring one time a bomb got her.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm actually trying to figure out if there exists a set of graphics settings that make Will of the Earth invisible. I don't have to explain why to you: at first I was stunned by the question. But I try to give every benefit of the doubt when I can.
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I do see when I'm targeted, as I can see "targeted" under my health bar.
This brings up a point that affects both Keyes and Underground though: Graphic Effects and the atrociously poor handling of visual cues in them.
Let's start with the league interface: Targeted players need to be highlighted in the league/team window. Have the player's health bar change color. It doesn't matter if the player is the target of disintegration, one of the War Walkers, or the Avatar. The player name should highlight when they are in range of a demolition charge (within the proximity).
The following auras/attacks are incredibly hard to see:
- Alpha Entanglement
- Beta Entanglement
- Disintegration
- Obliteration beam (fuzzy green aura on the ground or above the player is hard to see)
- Will of the Earth
- Any of the War Walker attacks
- Lichen Regeneration area
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The following auras/attacks are incredibly hard to see:
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It might be hard to see where WotE is coming from when its on another person nearby, but I find it difficult to believe its hard to tell when its actually centered on you. When its been on me, it could not be more obvious than if it shape-shifted me into Jurassik.
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Screenshot? Is it a particle effect?
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I tend to have my graphics settings turned way down during trials to minimize the chances of crashing.
Screenshot? Is it a particle effect? |
I don't have a screenshot, but I do have a demorecord of it: I'll see if I can extract a screencap of what it looks like centered on me. It may take a while, since its a very long demorecord, to get to that part of the demo and I don't want to hack it to put the aura on something unnaturally.
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While I thank the developers for testing many of the ideas presented in this thread, I'll point out the suggested (and reversed) removal of BAF/Lambda Empyrean Merits proved the following post:
So instead of making Keyes something people would want to do, you want to make less people do BAF or Lambda as well.
I think that is the dumbest thing I've read on these forums in my entire time visiting them. |
And Arcana, I still haven't been able to distinguish the Will of the Earth effects. Then again, I've not done many trials where I've got to that point.
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Get rid of the pulse.
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I couldn't find a recording of the time I had Will of the Earth centered on me and I flew up and away from everyone, which would have been a nice view of the effect, but I did find a decent angle of Will of the Earth not centered on me but at least relatively unobscured by lots of other players and effects. A static screen shot just does not do it justice, see this video capture of the effect. Watch the far left side of the screen, at about 6-7 seconds into the video the phrase so-and-so is being consumed by the Will of the Earth appears in red letters and a multicolored pulsing effect starts emanating from that player. It lasts about six seconds, which is about the delay before Will of the Earth fires. I uploaded at 1024x768, so you should be able to watch it at 720p in full screen. If you look *really* carefully I think you can catch yourself running away from the effect at the very far left edge of the screen for a brief instant. This was one of the early master attempts that I happened to be on.
Interestingly, when reviewing some video of a couple of runs, its important to note that there are two warnings that Will of the Earth is being fired. The first is that floating red text. That text is centered on *the player* and not on your screen. In other words, if a player standing directly behind you has Will of the Earth targeted, you might not see that warning. Second, the multicolored effect spreads out very far from the target, and it can be seen even when the Avatar moves behind the rocks near the back wall and Will of the Earth is targeted at a player at its feet. Even though in that case I cannot see the Avatar except for the top if its head, and I cannot see any of the players standing directly below him, and I cannot see the target of Will of the Earth in particular, I can still see the effect radiating out from that point: it seems to radiate right through obstacles.
But this effect is definitely a bit harder to spot in dense conditions than the Obliteration target. I can always spot Obliteration no matter how much effects are going off around me, but Will of the Earth can get lost in the effects because it has no harsh lines that are unique to it, and it doesn't have a prominent color that is different from everything else around: its unique signature is its rainbow sherbet appearance which takes more practice to visually lock onto.
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When the only two trials were BAF and Lambda, I thought that the players would eventually adapt. But with Keyes and Underground, its clear the learning curve is too steep for many players. Its easy to blame the devs for that, and I can certainly blame them for things like disintegrating frozen players. But I'm finding it difficult to blame them for things like players forgetting instructions they were told ten minutes ago or incorrectly executing an instruction on par with "shoot that, don't shoot that."
The problem isn't complexity, its that the devs need to focus their design energy on making fun complexity. There has to be a learning curve within the trials that rewards stepping up to the complexity, rather than punishing people for every little mistake. Personally, I don't think the trials require any major level of thought to do correctly. But there's not enough balance between rewarding good tactics and punishing tactical errors.
On an Underground Trial now and though we got wiped at the Extinction War Walker, no one is complaining. We're having FUN because we know we can overcome the challenges with a minimum of coordination and we're not being needlessly punished. There are steps where you need to work as a group more than usual and that's fine. I do hope that the devs keep the unresisted damage/debuffs to an absolute minimum, otherwise why am I slotting all these IOs and capping my health anyways?
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