I am not appreciating the Trial Grind
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-06-17 21:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Ok I sat down.. had breakfast, took a shower and had some time to think..
I said to myself what exists in this game that works really well that the majority of people seem to enjoy, but doesnt seem to add a level of frustration?. And while I am sure different people would have different answers I came up with one..
The Invention System. I started to go back into the memory banks.. as I recall the Invention System came out of the Skills system and the Legends System which never saw the light of day. The devs took a long time developing this system. They realized that what they were planning for some reason didnt work.. or it wasnt what people wanted. They created a system which allowed people to craft IO's to empower their character in ways that could not before and they could do so while playing regular content.
They created a whole economy that never existed before with the markets. They made all the pieces ( salvage and recipes ) trade-able and you could even sell or but what you didnt want or need.
Then they created merits as a reward at the end of a Task Force which could be utilized to buy merits you couldnt find on the market, through drops or that you couldnt afford. This got people doing TF's more often. You could either save them up to buy what you wanted.. or you could go for a random roll in a specific pool to see if you were lucky. The beauty is that you were not limited to how many merits you could earn in a day.. You could do an ITF and then go to a LGTF and then go do a Synapse.. if you had that kind of time.. and make progress...
Then they added AE which produced AE tickets which allowed you to use the tickets to get a random roll on a pool as well..
So you had random drops as a way to get IO's, Wentworths. Merits, and AE tickets. You could also trade directly with friends or teamates privately if you chose to..
AND the reality is that you really didnt even have to use IO's at all.. You could just use SO's, and the addition of IO's didnt negate SO's or HO's. In fact mamy of my toons have a combination of IO's and HO's...
Does the system have issues.. SURE it does.. but it was well thought out and it allowed people to participate in many different types of the already existing world and be rewarded for just playing...
NOW lets fast foward a little.. Incarnates.. The Alpha Slot.. Generally loved by all..
A nice little story arc which unlocks the slot.. and gives you a start with a piece of salvage,
Then they made shards drop from high level opponents only.. They also added unique salvage that couldnt be sold or traded.. However they were attainable simply by doing the required content to reward that piece.. and these were available on various level 45-50 task forces.. ITF. LGTF. STF LRSF etc etc,, and they were accessible to teams of 8.. Excellent... easy to do.. Also there was a good chance that you would get extra shards from just doing the content..
Then they unlocked the Alpha further with the Notice of the Well and the Weekly Strike Target... now here was the beauty in this.. people were already DOING the content... then they made it so you could exemp down and STILL get shards... so now high level players could so lower level WST and STILL get the Notice they needed... AND played with lower level people.. make new friends.. And the Lower level people didnt get screwed.. they had the option of DOUBLE merits... which they could certainly use to make Inventions...
NOW fast forward again..
We have a system where you have to play through the same content with repetitiveness whether you desire that slot unlocked or not. I personally hate playing through judgement to get to the Lord which I want on my MM's and I dont want judgement on them in the first place...
We have a system which introduced and new and IMO unnecessary currency for incarnates which is not compatible with the old one.. Unless you spend a few million to convert the old currency into the new one.. why make a new currency in the first place ??
We have a system in place that encourages larger teams which takes longer to asssemble. and while we have had this in place with the Hami and Mothership raids before.. One of the issues is that there is not a primary zone where this event takes place ( I understand this is in the works.. )
The random reward element at the end I think is the worst part. Prior to this.. You do TASK A.. you GET item A.. You progress.. You might need to certain tasks more than a few times to get what you need.. but you GET IT...
Why didnt they make it a merit system like they already had in place.. why can I only earn 2 EMP merits a day.. Why is there no ability to get a random roll on the TABLE I need.. Id take a random roll on a table for rare any day instead of doing 42 trials and getting no rares at all.. At least id get a rare that I could then sidegrade...
This is the source of my frustration.. doing the content and not making progress...the system feels rushed.. maybe they felt the heat from DCUO.. I dont know.. It just feels like it isnt well thought out..
Now its just a few weeks later.. and it seems that people are tired of this stuff. It could just be my perception. Or maybe people are tired of doing the same content over and over and not getting what they need to progress...
With the Alpha sometimes the process to tier 4 was long ( i have one guy with a 4 ) but at least you got there.. You knew a the end of the day.. I did XYZ i am closer today than when I started..
With this.. you do XYZ.. YAY another uncommon.... no progress.. wasted time effort and energy...
This is what I am saying.. They had good success with other systems.. and they had a system in place that was well liked ... somehow it seems they lost sight of that..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Huh, I didn't not realize that. I ran up against DE in a mish I had set to x8 and got shredded. I thought I was just being careless.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Citation needed. Some spawns, like some of the DE in the tip missions, have been given higher base tohit. There appear to be some enemies that are getting tohit buffs in Praetoria. This changes nothing for all the rest of the content.
The only way to fix the "everybody gets SR levels of defense" issue is to fix the bonuses coming out of IOs. What have they done there? Added more by giving some typed where positional was granted, gave positional where typed was granted and nerfed BotZ. That's not a fix. |
In regards to the Incarnate system, I have 5 characters that I decided to progress through the Incarnate system (of 13 level 50's). Most of those are currently sitting with tier 3's with only two of them equipped with tier 4's. For me, the current problem is that progression often feels like it is a result of luck rather than any kind of determination. I will have three options for progressing them to tier 4's:
- Grind out 30 Empyrean merits
- convert common/uncommon and 400+ threads into rares, convert very rares into a very rare with a 400 million inf cost
- Wait for a fortunate Very Rare to drop
The first option is grinding; no if's, and's, or but's about that. It would take just over 2 weeks, devoting myself to a Lambda and a BAF every night. The second appears more forgiving, however, even with good luck it requires 4 rares, or 16 uncommon and 400 threads. Any commons you get at this point serve little purpose other than to be broken down into 4 threads. You cannot upgrade them into uncommons. Now you, may get a rare during this grind to expediate your progress or even a very rare, satisfying your desire for that last tier. Unfortunately, for me and others apparently, the 16 trial streak of nothing but commons and uncommons does occur.
I would suggest altering the trial end reward table a bit to change this scenario, particularly the lack of progress made with common drops after reaching tier 3's. Simply, add Empyreans to the reward table in amounts equivalent to the reward you would recieve. Allow the player to choose one Empyrean merit on the common table, 3 on the uncommon table, 8 on the rare table, and 30 on the very rare table. Each of these is equilvalent to the salvage choices that you would recieve now. However, it means recieving the common table will allow you to progress at a rate of 20 threads any time you receive the common reward table, rather than breaking a common down to 4 threads if you no longer have a need for commons.
This puts more control of their progress in the players hands and less at the mercy of the RNG. It also gives a greater incentive for people who have already unlocked all their tier 4's to repeat the content, allowing the faster access to the costume parts, auras, and emotes that will locked behind the Incarnate system.
I was working on my post while Airhammer posted, but I think his post bears some relevance to mine. When the Invention system was determined by a random roll at the end of a TF, I had little interest in utilizing it. When a deterministic path was created by offering reward merits, it became something that I would and certainly have used. With the introduction of a-merits it became even more accessible. In fact, I've used A-merits to acquire one of those very rare pvp IO's. So, obviously, I'm not bothered by grind too much. I am bothered by inconsistent and random rewards. The bottleneck that occurs with tier 4's and commons falling to obsolescence at that point is what bothers me.
I would favour doing a complete retcon of the game and doing away with the whole Incarnate system ... and starting again.
I believe that it will be harmful in the long run to the longevity of this game, if it's allowed to continue - in its current sorry state.
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
Have you tried the MA?
Added to that Airhammer was the fact they openly and often mentioned they hated farming.
Hamidon was intentionally on a spawn timer so it could not be repeatedly farmed. The missions we could easily farm - were put on timers.
Then after the complete stupidity of AE and the abuse of it for 2-3 months, the Devs not only ignored farming but they made 2 of their own farms and require you to do them to get a chance at something. It is easily as badly bungled as the entire ED issue. Ed after the GDN was again not only badly handled it was unnecessary at that time dropping aggro cap and AoE cap would have held the game over until inventions.
Instead lie to people, tell then quit if you want to because players come and they go......and offer then a few costume pieces to shut them up. Now we have SILENCE from the Devs on this issue. The threads pop up DAILY and get hundreds of responses - where is the Red Name reply?
Where is the straight forward and open conversation? We are for the most part a 7 year player base many of us still log in daily and we KNOW this game. We KNOW our players and listen to each other while teaming.
Other than feel good marketing crap we aren't getting the kind of direct conversation we had grown used to. Castle and Babs would have heated and in depth discussions. At times they would say - this is where we are going - I know some may not like it but the game engine, art work, design limitations or just people we have means we can't do that ..........yet.
Sometimes they gave us far more than we asked for, coloring powers, costumes, animals and other stuff. On the whole they have done very well by us - this time they are again dropping the ball, badly.
Just tossing my hat into the ring as it being too much of a grind in it's current state. I pretty much work on the alpha slot and then move on. Unfortunately, the game's shift has moved so towards end game content it has cost the rest of the game in terms of teaming options. Yes, you can get on teams. Yes, I can lead them. Yes, you have to really be putting your head in the sand to say that the number of level 50s being played isn't vastly one sided these days. The sheer number of W.T.F. that are end game content based isn't helping either. We get multiple ITFs, LRSF/STF, Khans, and LGTFs, but not a single Synapse TF.
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The proper response to "It sucks" is "Well, I like it, so I don't think it sucks." |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
II was pretty harsh because I was responding to a pretty harsh sentiment.
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The proper response to "It sucks" is not "until you have a successful game, your opinion is invalid".
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
The proper response to "It sucks" is "Well, I like it, so I don't think it sucks."
The proper response to "It sucks" is not "until you have a successful game, your opinion is invalid". |
Is there some sort of handbook on what is and isn't proper to say? Perhaps your own personal etiquette Wiki page that I should reference and revere before posting anything? Or is that a matter of opinion?
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Last time I looked (I.E. last time I saw Arcana talk about it) Tip mish DE were getting 65% base acc instead of 50%. 65% is also the standard for all Praet mobs, wether 1-20 or 54+|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Citation needed. Some spawns, like some of the DE in the tip missions, have been given higher base tohit. There appear to be some enemies that are getting tohit buffs in Praetoria. This changes nothing for all the rest of the content.
The only way to fix the "everybody gets SR levels of defense" issue is to fix the bonuses coming out of IOs. What have they done there? Added more by giving some typed where positional was granted, gave positional where typed was granted and nerfed BotZ. That's not a fix. |
This really, really shreds lowbies something fierce. Not to mention the increased number of attacks they have in relation to Primal mobs, more exotic damage types, and a plethora of debuffs.
The fault is, indeed, with IOs, though. Cranking up the mobs just penalises those who don't use IO, something that was claimed was NEVER going to happen. (Its even an in-game Tip)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The chances of that happening are close to zero - like minus 5 or so |
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man
I would favour doing a complete retcon of the game and doing away with the whole Incarnate system ... and starting again.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Egads, man, the thing that introduced City of Heroes to the Wonderful World of RMT™? That's the best thing you can come up with? As soon as I saw how it was implemented, I thought, "Sure, that sounds great and all, but as soon as you make something that takes a long time tradeable, you're going to be barraged by spam." Sure enough, for a year or two after Issue 9, we had to put up with literally thousands of spam messages every day being pumped out via tells. Then e-mails. And now with RMTers standing around in Wentworth's and other populated areas.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Ok I sat down.. had breakfast, took a shower and had some time to think..
I said to myself what exists in this game that works really well that the majority of people seem to enjoy, but doesnt seem to add a level of frustration?. And while I am sure different people would have different answers I came up with one.. The Invention System. |
As a direct result, the devs had to nerf trial accounts to the point where they're barely playable. Also, does anyone else here remember the good ol' days when influence was so plentiful and relatively useless at level 50 that you would give millions (which was, at the time, massive quantities) of it away to new players? Costume contests and other types of events were nightly occurrences. Now, thanks to the Invention System, you have to horde billions to get that purple you want from the market.
Not to mention that it drove farming to an all new high level. Sure, there was some of it here and there before, but for most people, it seemed kind of silly to accrue vast amounts of influence when it wasn't really usable for anything other than twinking your alts. After Issue 9, though, all of a sudden, you had something to do with billions of influence, and boy did people do it.
Now mind you, I'm not saying that the Invention System is all bad, just that your romanticized version of what it was like when it came out is more than a bit of selective remembering.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
They created a whole economy that never existed before with the markets. They made all the pieces ( salvage and recipes ) trade-able and you could even sell or but what you didnt want or need.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Then they created merits as a reward at the end of a Task Force which could be utilized to buy merits you couldnt find on the market, through drops or that you couldnt afford.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
You could do an ITF and then go to a LGTF and then go do a Synapse.. if you had that kind of time.. and make progress...
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Then they added AE which produced AE tickets which allowed you to use the tickets to get a random roll on a pool as well..
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So this "well thought out" system, which I'm not disagreeing was actually well thought out, had its own set of problems and challenges. Also, the stuff you mentioned was spread out over the course of two years, between April 2007 and May 2009, incrementally making it easier to obtain the rewards that initially, may complained were much too hard and "grindy" to get.
Issue 20, which introduced the Incarnate Trials, hit the live servers on April 5, 2011, a little over two months ago.
Two months.
So you're unhappy that after two months, a system you don't like doesn't have the maturity of a system you do that took over two years to roll out, while simultaneously acting like that system had no problems at all? You really don't remember how grindy the Invention System was when it was first released? You really think that what we have now will be the one and only way to ever obtain these rewards, that in a year and a half from now, we won't be having this exact conversation over the next long-term rewards, having forgotten all about how the trials were once viewed by some as grindy, before they opened the stuff up further by whatever is in the pipeline right now? You really think that the Incarnate system was just thrown together, as compared to the Invention System?
Wow.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
Re: Tony's post
Hindsight....not only 20/20, but also rose-colored 
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I actually tried to solo a DE mission on x8 on my level 50(+1) Kat/sr that's IOed out. Yeah, I turned down the diff. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Last time I looked (I.E. last time I saw Arcana talk about it) Tip mish DE were getting 65% base acc instead of 50%. 65% is also the standard for all Praet mobs, wether 1-20 or 54+
This really, really shreds lowbies something fierce. Not to mention the increased number of attacks they have in relation to Primal mobs, more exotic damage types, and a plethora of debuffs. The fault is, indeed, with IOs, though. Cranking up the mobs just penalises those who don't use IO, something that was claimed was NEVER going to happen. (Its even an in-game Tip) |
Some mobs at level 50 are just flat out annoying at x8.
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Issue 20, which introduced the Incarnate Trials, hit the live servers on April 5, 2011, a little over two months ago.
Two months. So you're unhappy that after two months, a system you don't like doesn't have the maturity of a system you do that took over two years to roll out, while simultaneously acting like that system had no problems at all? You really don't remember how grindy the Invention System was when it was first released? You really think that what we have now will be the one and only way to ever obtain these rewards, that in a year and a half from now, we won't be having this exact conversation over the next long-term rewards, having forgotten all about how the trials were once viewed by some as grindy, before they opened the stuff up further by whatever is in the pipeline right now? You really think that the Incarnate system was just thrown together, as compared to the Invention System? Wow. |
I also find it weird that people are now saying the Alpha system is so perfect. I remember a lot of gnashing of teeth when it first came out also. It took a bit of time for it to be fleshed out and have more options added to it.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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I don't get that either. Alpha is part of incarnate. Why does it have a "different" system at all?|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
QFT.
I also find it weird that people are now saying the Alpha system is so perfect. I remember a lot of gnashing of teeth when it first came out also. It took a bit of time for it to be fleshed out and have more options added to it. |
The devs figured out that having three types of inf was a ridiculous idea. Why didn't they learn from that mistake with the incarnate system?
Again, scrap the shard system entirely. Do a wholesale swap of shards to threads everywhere they show up. Have all shard components converted to equivalent random thread components. Be done with it.
Be well, people of CoH.
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QFT|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Again, scrap the shard system entirely. Do a wholesale swap of shards to threads everywhere they show up. Have all shard components converted to equivalent random thread components. Be done with it.
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since the Trials came out, shards have become rather obsolete.
How long before the trials did it take for someone to get their Tier 3 Alpha? Because now you can have it in a couple hours (not including trial team forming time).
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Stubbing your toe hurts if you have nothing to compare it to, but is downright pleasant compared to a kick in the balls.
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Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
QFT.
I also find it weird that people are now saying the Alpha system is so perfect. I remember a lot of gnashing of teeth when it first came out also. It took a bit of time for it to be fleshed out and have more options added to it. |
Is that the new Incanrate version of the slap in the face?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I admit to chuckling at that. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Is that the new Incarnate version of the slap in the face?
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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After your earlier gem, you have no room to talk about proper moderate replies.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
The proper response to "It sucks" is "Well, I like it, so I don't think it sucks."
The proper response to "It sucks" is not "until you have a successful game, your opinion is invalid". |
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You fund me, I'll design it. Otherwise, shut the hell up.
This argument is petty, small, and pointless; it takes more to "make a game" than having well-founded and solid ideas on what should go into your entertainment. You do not have to be a professional (meaning "get paid for the work"; the amateur/professional divide is a paycheck, and nothing else) to have a valid point; a great deal of our technological and scientific advantages have been made by people that were not paid for the time they put in making them. Do you think Arcanaville doesn't have a deep and solid understanding of this game's mechanics, having never received a paycheck from NCSoft? For that matter, getting that paycheck, and thus being a "professional", does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing either. As I recall, Castle is on-record has having admitted that Arcanaville understood certain things better than he did - the "amateur" teaching the "professional". |
The rest of that post might fly, but you're as guilty as he is with that first bit.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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They already did that once to the post-30 XP range; are they going to go back and do it again? How easy does the post-30 range have to get before it's 'smooth'?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, it's going to be the opposite - they've said they're going to look at the XP curve post-30, as some people seem to get bogged down their a bit - so it seems likely that they'll smooth the curve a bit from 30 to 50.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Until it feels smooth |
Originally Posted by srmalloy
They already did that once to the post-30 XP range; are they going to go back and do it again? How easy does the post-30 range have to get before it's 'smooth'?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I agree.... reminds me of this except with more action.
| just repeating the same content over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and (this goes on for a while) and over and over and over and over and over and |
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To be honest, I think it's more a case of a hump in power levels. 30s feel boring to me on most of my characters. Just more enhancements mostly [which are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're more useful to me once I get 50 and start spending the moneyz].
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
They already did that once to the post-30 XP range; are they going to go back and do it again? How easy does the post-30 range have to get before it's 'smooth'?
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Let's Dance!
The only way to fix the "everybody gets SR levels of defense" issue is to fix the bonuses coming out of IOs. What have they done there? Added more by giving some typed where positional was granted, gave positional where typed was granted and nerfed BotZ.
That's not a fix.
Be well, people of CoH.