I am not appreciating the Trial Grind
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-06-17 21:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Double coupons !!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I'm seeing a lot of this from you. Did you come across a punctuation clearance sale or something?
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
The trials are fun here and there. What I don't like is how they in practice detract from running the rest of the rest of the game should, you want to bring your character up through the new progression that's been opened.
I LOVED the alpha slot sytem, even before shards dropped from lower SF's. It's message: "Rewards for playing different parts of the game, and here, here's a different SF each week to try." If you want a notice, don't like this week's target, you'll get a new one next week. Add in the shards for exemplaring, and you have an endgame that let's you also use the rest of the game, doing anything with your incarnate=progress.
The threads and trial rewards seem to be far more begrudging, to the point that the shard-->thread-->component/incarnate xp conversion seems so steep it's all but labeled "you really should be running trials." It really makes me wonder- are the devs nervous enough that they think something that's even half as fast as trials would lose interest in league runs? Would trials cease to be popular if they were not such an exclusive-ish source of new incarnate rewards, or would the instances still hold up as a fun thing to do with other players just because they are fun? I'd reaeeeaaallly hope the devs would make stuff they could comfortably say was fun enough to run on it's own to go and play, even without a carrot dangling at the end.
That, in the end, is what has me a bit disheartened. By appearances the devs are placing the carrots so completely on the new stuff, it does seem to come back to the "you really should be playing trials" nudging. What, not the game you guys spent 7+ years on? I can't get all my incarnate stuff for that, because conquering statesman, nictus in rome, or all the other 50ish stuff in the game just doesn't count the same way? I'm sorry. I guess I really should be running trials. Those are the real incarnate feats. 
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You need to go back and read what I have said from the beginning.. and in all honesty I dont care whether my comments bother you or not.. I hope they bother the developers to realize there is something wrong with the system and that the reward tables are unfair. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The only t4 my warshade has is clarion, the rest are all t3's... But man, that status protection is nice.
 Here's an idea... If you don't like the system, don't participate in it. If you dislike the incarnate progression so much and you have a better idea on how to do it, go make your own game with a better mechanic. Comments like this really bother me, people seem to forget that not only are we getting FREE content upgrades, but it's a new system that is still being developed. Do you expect the Dev team to snap their fingers and create 30 trials and a huge variety of solo incarnate arcs on a silver platter overnight? In case you haven't noticed, we just got 4 new incarnate abilities in the last update, and two brand new trials. In the next update, that isn't even a new issue, we'll be getting another new trial. If you're going to complain about something, pick something reasonable that's actually a faulty mechanic like the rewards tables. |
The other issue is that the ONLY place you can get what you need is the trials and they effectively made the system they already HAVE obsolete and should you want to convert the old system to the new system... well THAT will cost you influence.. I have also been pretty vocal about the outrageous costs of crafting as well which is fine for the farmers and people who have a ton of influence but stops those that do not from participating or turns them into farmers so they can keep up.
That COULD have used some of the very same system in place ALREADY.. level 50 TF's as well as the trials.. they COULD have made something like a shorter DR Q.. you know like when they shortened Positron ?? They COULD have given me a reason to GO to the Shadow Shard..
There is PLENTY of things they could have done to give OPTIONS rather than just TWO TF;s over and over and over and over and over and over and over..
And BTW I have been playing this game since two month after it was released.. I have easily put over 1500 into this game.. so I have the right to complain if I dont like something... and in all honesty I am hoping they hear me loud and clear.. not because I am gonna quit and take my ball and go home.. but because I believe have been a LOYAL and PAYING customer and my opinion does matter..
However if they dont know what people dont like.. they might not make the correct changes..
You know how many times I have seen people complain over something and that very thing gets fixed eventually in this game? A LOT.. and there is still more yet that needs to be done..
In fact just recently myself and a few others complained about how the last batch of sever transfers were poorly handled and how the community was poorly notified.... and you know what happened.. a SECOND batch of WELL ADVERTIZED transfers was made available...
So If you dont like my complaints.. or my statements.. feel free to put me on ignore.. or stop reading my posts... but I will keep going right on ahead and discussing and giving my feedback...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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You mean stuff that is TRADE-ABLE..|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like buying HOs, purples or anything else at Wentworths?
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OOPS... shards threads and meriits arent... oh well...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Look again..
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In other words, you have no answer to it
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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THANK YOU... |
Originally Posted by Seldom
The trials are fun here and there. What I don't like is how they in practice detract from running the rest of the rest of the game should, you want to bring your character up through the new progression that's been opened.
I LOVED the alpha slot sytem, even before shards dropped from lower SF's. It's message: "Rewards for playing different parts of the game, and here, here's a different SF each week to try." If you want a notice, don't like this week's target, you'll get a new one next week. Add in the shards for exemplaring, and you have an endgame that let's you also use the rest of the game, doing anything with your incarnate=progress. The threads and trial rewards seem to be far more begrudging, to the point that the shard-->thread-->component/incarnate xp conversion seems so steep it's all but labeled "you really should be running trials." It really makes me wonder- are the devs nervous enough that they think something that's even half as fast as trials would lose interest in league runs? Would trials cease to be popular if they were not such an exclusive-ish source of new incarnate rewards, or would the instances still hold up as a fun thing to do with other players just because they are fun? I'd reaeeeaaallly hope the devs would make stuff they could comfortably say was fun enough to run on it's own to go and play, even without a carrot dangling at the end. That, in the end, is what has me a bit disheartened. By appearances the devs are placing the carrots so completely on the new stuff, it does seem to come back to the "you really should be playing trials" nudging. What, not the game you guys spent 7+ years on? I can't get all my incarnate stuff for that, because conquering statesman, nictus in rome, or all the other 50ish stuff in the game just doesn't count the same way? I'm sorry. I guess I really should be running trials. Those are the real incarnate feats. |
and we completely destroyed the whole point of getting shards in ONE move..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
The problem with the whole ED scenario is that Statesman wasnt honest.. He flat our LIED to the community and tried to sell the lie, when they should have just been honesty about it and delayed the ED until the Invention System was ready to go..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Seldom
The trials are fun here and there. What I don't like is how they in practice detract from running the rest of the rest of the game should, you want to bring your character up through the new progression that's been opened.
I LOVED the alpha slot sytem, even before shards dropped from lower SF's. It's message: "Rewards for playing different parts of the game, and here, here's a different SF each week to try." If you want a notice, don't like this week's target, you'll get a new one next week. Add in the shards for exemplaring, and you have an endgame that let's you also use the rest of the game, doing anything with your incarnate=progress. ... |
Yep, I am in agreement here. Almost everyone in beta was hating the random rewards...but...they're still here
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This game would not be around today had they delayed Enhancement Diversification much longer than they did. I'm not exaggerating. Anyone who doesn't like trials, you have no idea what an exercise in tedium is like until you go on mission after mission, watching a "burn" tanker gather hundreds of enemies into a dumpster and wait while enemies' health ticked down to zero. And if you had the gall to do anything that you thought was helpful, people would get mad, chastise you to just wait by the entrance, even kick you from the team.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
The problem with the whole ED scenario is that Statesman wasnt honest.. He flat our LIED to the community and tried to sell the lie, when they should have just been honesty about it and delayed the ED until the Invention System was ready to go..
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I actually left the game for two or three months in 2005 precisely because I wasn't doing anything and the thought of rolling a burn tanker just to play was nauseating. Had they not fixed the issue like they did, I would be permanently gone. As much as that might please some people, everyone else would have too and there would be no City of Heroes today.
Retro-hate Statesman all you want, but Enhancement Diversification was a very good thing for this game.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
You need to go back and read what I have said from the beginning.. and in all honesty I dont care whether my comments bother you or not.. I hope they bother the developers to realize there is something wrong with the system and that the reward tables are unfair.
The other issue is that the ONLY place you can get what you need is the trials and they effectively made the system they already HAVE obsolete and should you want to convert the old system to the new system... well THAT will cost you influence.. I have also been pretty vocal about the outrageous costs of crafting as well which is fine for the farmers and people who have a ton of influence but stops those that do not from participating or turns them into farmers so they can keep up. That COULD have used some of the very same system in place ALREADY.. level 50 TF's as well as the trials.. they COULD have made something like a shorter DR Q.. you know like when they shortened Positron ?? They COULD have given me a reason to GO to the Shadow Shard.. There is PLENTY of things they could have done to give OPTIONS rather than just TWO TF;s over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. And BTW I have been playing this game since two month after it was released.. I have easily put over 1500 into this game.. so I have the right to complain if I dont like something... and in all honesty I am hoping they hear me loud and clear.. not because I am gonna quit and take my ball and go home.. but because I believe have been a LOYAL and PAYING customer and my opinion does matter.. However if they dont know what people dont like.. they might not make the correct changes.. You know how many times I have seen people complain over something and that very thing gets fixed eventually in this game? A LOT.. and there is still more yet that needs to be done.. In fact just recently myself and a few others complained about how the last batch of sever transfers were poorly handled and how the community was poorly notified.... and you know what happened.. a SECOND batch of WELL ADVERTIZED transfers was made available... So If you dont like my complaints.. or my statements.. feel free to put me on ignore.. or stop reading my posts... but I will keep going right on ahead and discussing and giving my feedback... |
A lot of that would be all well and good if the Devs said, "Ok. Here's 2 trials. That's the incarnate system." That's not the case, though... They are already testing another trial and they have acknowledged several times the fact that people want more options and they intend to deliver on that but it just takes time. If the official standpoint was "this is all you get, take it or leave it" I would be right there with you, but I don't see the sense in having an outcry on something that has already been addressed and is in the process of being handled. You have every right to complain, sure, but I don't see the sense in complaining about the same exact thing over and over when there's already a solution on the horizon. It just comes down to patience.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Ah, but if we want THE COOL STUFF, we ARE being nickeled and dimed to death. I say that as someone with almost all of the packs; I paid to get them and I rather resented it while I ponied up. I'm more than sure NCSoft doesnt care that I resented it, especially given the dearth - nay, the COMPLETE LACK OF - of new free costume stuff to offset new stuff we have to pay for, but I did resent it.
This is the exact same argument we saw with badges necessary for certain accolades being placed in PvP zones: "Oh but you don't HAVE TO HAVE those!" Akshully.... I do have to have 'em. And we're all being nickeled and dimed. This forum has some of the most diehard apologists I have ever seen. If word came out that NCSoft mailed vials containing pure Ebola virus to every subscribers house, we'd have people out here defending that decision until the last death-rattle caused em to drop dead from their computer-chairs. |
It's definitely your prerogative to buy all the packs you want but you aren't being nickeled and dimed one bit. I can't think of any other game that has more options in its' character creation tool than COH, and that's without any packs included. I understand that lots of people want additional stuff and I think it's great that the option is available to get it, but it's not like you have to pay 5 dollars per travel power or something... I guess ninja run is kind of an exception, but again it's not something you need to fully enjoy the game-- Same goes for costumes.
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Eh... dealing with two different things here. |
Originally Posted by TonyV
This game would not be around today had they delayed Enhancement Diversification much longer than they did. I'm not exaggerating. Anyone who doesn't like trials, you have no idea what an exercise in tedium is like until you go on mission after mission, watching a "burn" tanker gather hundreds of enemies into a dumpster and wait while enemies' health ticked down to zero. And if you had the gall to do anything that you thought was helpful, people would get mad, chastise you to just wait by the entrance, even kick you from the team.
I actually left the game for two or three months in 2005 precisely because I wasn't doing anything and the thought of rolling a burn tanker just to play was nauseating. Had they not fixed the issue like they did, I would be permanently gone. As much as that might please some people, everyone else would have too and there would be no City of Heroes today. Retro-hate Statesman all you want, but Enhancement Diversification was a very good thing for this game. |
Yes, ED was good for the game. I remember quite a bit of "stand around, do nothign while the tank herds, then the blasters decide who gets to nuke everything on this floor." Very bad for long term health.
But the complaints about States... yeah, legit. He did *technically* tell the truth about it - but he really lawyered it, so to speak (going by the letter instead of the spirit of what he said.) "We won't make any more drastic changes to powers like GDN." What did we get next? ED. No, the powers themselves didn't change... but it was a wholesale change to the way they were slotted - and worked afterward. If anything cemented the image of Jack as dishonest, it was that.
(And, honestly, I'm sitting here watching us grow more powerful in game and wondering when the hammer's going to fall for us being "too powerful" again - the devs have *admitted* some of the things we've done have caught them by surprise... like softcapped blasters.)
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First of all, you're right. However, there are people--and I see a lot of them here--who are on the opposite end of that extreme. People who are rank amateurs, who have no idea what they're talking about, armchair quarterbacking the experts who have spent decades doing precisely this based on study and actual data.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
This argument is petty, small, and pointless; it takes more to "make a game" than having well-founded and solid ideas on what should go into your entertainment. You do not have to be a professional (meaning "get paid for the work"; the amateur/professional divide is a paycheck, and nothing else) to have a valid point; a great deal of our technological and scientific advantages have been made by people that were not paid for the time they put in making them.
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What bothers me about a lot of these conversations isn't when people say, "I don't like trials." It's not when people say, "I want a solo path to getting this stuff." It's not even when people make suggestions that I think are zany and "out there" to alleviate the situation.
No, what gets under my skin are the trolls who come along ragequitting (which is never a valid argument; it's nothing but a temper tantrum), who cop an attitude of entitlement ("you owe us this!"), who don't just criticize but who lay on the venom ("the devs are lazy and don't know what they're doing!"), and who constantly engage in gross hyperbole ("we can't do anything else but trials, the devs are ignoring us, it's a slap in the face!").
It's amazing to me how many people think that $15 per month playing a game makes them experienced developers. Matt Miller has been working for 20 years in this industry, and over eight years on this game alone. He has seen its ups and downs and been instrumental in just about every cool thing that we do in it. I put a lot of weight in his opinion and trust in his judgment, and though it's been tested a little here and there, it's always panned out pretty well. Arcanaville has earned some leeway in providing data that has been repeatedly acknowledged by the developers as helpful. When she says something, I put more weight to it because she's proven that she's a smart cookie who can hold her own.
But when some random Joe Schmo starts railing that he hates x, the devs are awful people who hate us, if they cared about the game at all they'd do y, everyone who disagrees is an idiot and a suckup, this new feature they've poured their heart and soul into is going to destroy the game, and they're leaving!!!11!, those opinions actually take away from credibility.
Fortunately, most people fall somewhere in between those extremes, and thus the game goes on.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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First off equating one badly broken power ( which burn was at the time ) with an entire system isnt even a correct comparison. The problem with that was the power itself.. not the system...|
Originally Posted by TonyV
This game would not be around today had they delayed Enhancement Diversification much longer than they did. I'm not exaggerating. Anyone who doesn't like trials, you have no idea what an exercise in tedium is like until you go on mission after mission, watching a "burn" tanker gather hundreds of enemies into a dumpster and wait while enemies' health ticked down to zero. And if you had the gall to do anything that you thought was helpful, people would get mad, chastise you to just wait by the entrance, even kick you from the team.
I actually left the game for two or three months in 2005 precisely because I wasn't doing anything and the thought of rolling a burn tanker just to play was nauseating. Had they not fixed the issue like they did, I would be permanently gone. As much as that might please some people, everyone else would have too and there would be no City of Heroes today. Retro-hate Statesman all you want, but Enhancement Diversification was a very good thing for this game. |
Firstly let me say that I had no problem with ED.. The problem is the way it was handled. Statesman flat out LIED to the community right after the change to defense.. I remember the exact conversation... He was telling bubblers who said that they would be less of a help to the team.. he said.. You can still slot you shield with 6 defense buffs... this was with him FULLY KNOWING That ED was in the works.. and when it came out just a few weeks later it pissed a lot of people off because it showed that he was talking through both sides of his mouth...
But that being said.. ED needed to happen because if you had the original system AND the Invention Origin system in place the game would have been utterly broken.. However it was how they HANDLED it that was the problem... and that is why I am saying that THIS system is the worst thing since ED because I believe the way they are HANDLING it is creating the same issue.. In fact I know it is.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Yep, I am in agreement here. Almost everyone in beta was hating the random rewards...but...they're still here
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YUP>. hated it.. spoke against it.. its still here.. and its totally broken... 42 uncommons in a row isnt random..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(And, honestly, I'm sitting here watching us grow more powerful in game and wondering when the hammer's going to fall for us being "too powerful" again - the devs have *admitted* some of the things we've done have caught them by surprise... like softcapped blasters.) |
Which is why I havent softcapped not ONE blaster.. I KNOW they are going do so something about it sooner or later..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
This argument is petty, small, and pointless; it takes more to "make a game" than having well-founded and solid ideas on what should go into your entertainment. You do not have to be a professional (meaning "get paid for the work"; the amateur/professional divide is a paycheck, and nothing else) to have a valid point; a great deal of our technological and scientific advantages have been made by people that were not paid for the time they put in making them. Do you think Arcanaville doesn't have a deep and solid understanding of this game's mechanics, having never received a paycheck from NCSoft?
For that matter, getting that paycheck, and thus being a "professional", does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing either. As I recall, Castle is on-record has having admitted that Arcanaville understood certain things better than he did - the "amateur" teaching the "professional". |
It's not like I would say that to anyone who had an issue with the incarnate system, my tone was matching the tone of the post I replied to.. Here's some examples:
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| the system BLOWS period.. |
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| WELL just do the same things over and over and over and over and get CRAPPY results which more than often yield crap you DONT want or need... |
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| You can slice it up any way you want to... Its a grind.... and it SUCKS.. way to go CoH you just made yourself like every other MMO and are doing a good job of alienating some loyal customers.. |
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What Tony is describing was a systemic issue. It wasn't just the power burn. It was the pre-GDN, pre-ED, pre-aggro cap, pre-aoe max targets caps, etc system that allowed for dumpster diving.| First off equating one badly broken power ( which burn was at the time ) with an entire system isnt even a correct comparison. The problem with that was the power itself.. not the system... |
You're correct, however, that ED's implementation was a cluster#&$^.
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| Which is why I havent softcapped not ONE blaster.. I KNOW they are going do so something about it sooner or later.. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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I have to be honest, this never bothered me. You have to understand that there's a fine line to walk when you're a spokesperson like that. Saying nothing is interpreted as an action as much as actually asserting something to be true or false. I'm not condoning lying, but you said it yourself--he *technically* told the truth. Unfortunately, when a group of rabid people like the CoH playerbase repeatedly put you in awkward positions by asking you questions you really can't answer, at some point, something like this is going to happen.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
He did *technically* tell the truth about it - but he really lawyered it, so to speak (going by the letter instead of the spirit of what he said.) "We won't make any more drastic changes to powers like GDN." What did we get next? ED. No, the powers themselves didn't change... but it was a wholesale change to the way they were slotted - and worked afterward. If anything cemented the image of Jack as dishonest, it was that.
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To be in that kind of position, you have to be not just a good developer, but a good politician. And like good politicians, sometimes you have to lawyer an answer when you get backed into a corner. It depends on what your definition of "is" is. We don't torture people, for certain legal definitions of "torture." It's not ideal, but it happens.
Also, it neglects the fact that sometimes things change. It's entirely possible that had the global defense nerf (sorry, I hate obscure abbreviations) accomplished what the devs set out for it to do--make the game less boring for non-burn tankers--that enhancement diversification may have never been necessary to balance the game further.
Personally, I don't hate Statesman. I kind of liked having things as unfiltered as he sometimes provided. He also did a great job with writing interesting material and for several years, he directed the troops in providing one of the most compelling diversions I've ever engaged in in my life. I thank him for his time and effort, and wish him well.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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You have the right to make your case.. I have the right to make mine... Thats what freedom of speech is all about baby !!!
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It's not like I would say that to anyone who had an issue with the incarnate system, my tone was matching the tone of the post I replied to.. Here's some examples:
I was pretty harsh because I was responding to a pretty harsh sentiment. There have been a lot of productively voiced and logical suggestions given that the Devs have acknowledged already, but it's really annoying when people still harp on and on about how it sucks so horribly and they word it in the most crude way possible. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
That's what they should do! I like it! Make Shards tradeable! Not Threads. Keep those bound on pickup, but shards, make them tradeable, but only for level 50s!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
What Tony is describing was a systemic issue. It wasn't just the power burn. It was the pre-GDN, pre-ED, pre-aggro cap, pre-aoe max targets caps, etc system that allowed for dumpster diving.
You're correct, however, that ED's implementation was a cluster#&$^. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. |
I agree with TonyV.. as I said I didnt have an issue with ED.. it was how they have handled it.. Im kind of the same way with this Incarnate System.. the system is broken and has some issues.. glaring ones.. and the handling of them I have found to be an issue...
Im still not going to make a softcapped blaster.. I can blast just fine without defense... For me Its like that 7up commercial....
Defense.. never had it.. never will..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Or just have one currency in the first place ??
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Originally Posted by BrandX
That's what they should do! I like it! Make Shards tradeable! Not Threads. Keep those bound on pickup, but shards, make them tradeable, but only for level 50s!
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Because they've already been doing things about it? Most new enemies introduced since i18 or so have had higher base accuracy one the whole.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.
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The Trial Grind is easily the worst thing that has happened to this game.
I can't think of a more effective way to alienate a large section of the playerbase in one go.
ED may rival it but in the long run the Trial Grind just may be the one thing that causes this game's undoing.
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
For that matter, getting that paycheck, and thus being a "professional", does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing either. As I recall, Castle is on-record has having admitted that Arcanaville understood certain things better than he did - the "amateur" teaching the "professional".