I am not appreciating the Trial Grind
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-06-17 21:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
That might be down to people starting the next wave of 50s on the Incarnate path - people have had time to get T3s and T4s on their main avatars now, so if they're switching to other 50s to turn into Incanrates, that could result in more post-launch style Trials, with the majotiy of a lot of leagues only being Alphas.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I've noticed more failures on the trials lately. Actually, I should say the BAF. The prisoner phase use to be a no brainer but it seems people are failing it more and more lately.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Perhaps, though the game doesn't exactly give the league leader that many tools to figure that sort of thing out, beyond shouting at a fractious mob of players and hoping for honest responses. "Get Info" provides little useful information about Incarnate abilities, and that's buried in the badges tab.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The league leader should have balanced the 2 teams a little better
 |
I usually just ask if there are any +2s and +3s on the league, and then shuffle the teams based on the responses.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
It would be better if we could know without asking, however. It is a shame they failed to have the incarnate stuff shown in the info window.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I usually just ask if there are any +2s and +3s on the league, and then shuffle the teams based on the responses.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
I've been on a couple of those failed BAFs in the last couple of days, and in our case it was a decided lack of slows, immobilizes and holds, and the desire of the league leader to pack the team with 20+ players who didn't have the wherewithal to stop that many mobs when slowed down by all the server lag.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I've noticed more failures on the trials lately. Actually, I should say the BAF. The prisoner phase use to be a no brainer but it seems people are failing it more and more lately.
|
After failing one of those, we went again with only 15 players, one of whom ran an Earth/Storm, and not one prisoner escaped.
Quote:
You're actually talking about the average randomly assembled league for a trial that just happens to have no experienced players, no players with incarnate abilities yet including alpha, nothing but SOs, isn't good at coordinating themselves into a team, and isn't willing to learn the content to get better at it. *This* "average PUG" is unlikely to be successful. |
Originally Posted by Venture
The average PUG, without Incarnate abilities or strong Invention slotting, is completely wasting its time in any Incarnate content.
|
This average PUG also probably couldn't collect all the day job badges without a few team wipes.
I should also point out I've never seen this average PUG attempt the trials before, conversely I've seen this average team completely fail normal task forces before. For this average team, the entire game is one big gate and they don't have the key.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Couldn't you just cycle through the teams and check the incarnate buff icons by right clicking? Technically you'd need to know the names, but you just have to remember shift is in Destiny and Lore, and Total/Partial Core/Radial are the tier 3s (the tier 4s have some variety but are even more obvious)? Not the fastest way, but league leaders usually have a fair amount of time to check out characters as the league is assembled.
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It would be better if we could know without asking, however. It is a shame they failed to have the incarnate stuff shown in the info window.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
That's an interesting way to do it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Couldn't you just cycle through the teams and check the incarnate buff icons by right clicking? Technically you'd need to know the names, but you just have to remember shift is in Destiny and Lore, and Total/Partial Core/Radial are the tier 3s (the tier 4s have some variety but are even more obvious)? Not the fastest way, but league leaders usually have a fair amount of time to check out characters as the league is assembled.
|
I usually just ask and folks usually give honest answers.
Still be nice if the devs integrated it into the other systems we already have for looking up that info.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I actually expect another level shift or two within the next 5 slots. If it weren't for the current level shifts I would NOT have gone to tier 3 on some slots on MANY of my 50s. Most certainly not Lore. the level shift is the perfect carrot to get people to go for those tier 3s in slots they might not regularly have.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I have reason to believe that at least in the near future that will not be the case. Maybe after they add the next 5 slots as you said. But then I don't expect another level shift until Omega.
|
I also agree with GG (*shudders*) that I expect there WILL be stuff that will be incredibly (near impossible) hard to do without having spent time unlocking your slots.
There is already precedent for this at the START of the Incarnate system: Tin Mage and Apex. What makes us think they would do such a thing at the start of the system and NOT in the late stages of the system?
Actually now that I think about it needing at least one or two level shifts to even attempt the final battle with Tyrant (whatever form that may be in the future) seems like something VERY plausible.
Other mmos do it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
As to the grind: I've taken people's advice and stopping doing them.
Then again I have logged into COH in over two weeks soooo . . .
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Implausible, at least as being discussed. The devs have said the Praetorian story line has a scripted ending, and have also said for the current foreseeable future they are planning on expanding the current slots and not releasing the rest of the slots. Put two and two together and you get that the final battle with Tyrant will likely occur while we still have the same five slots. Therefore, its unlikely we'll *need* more level shift. Actually, its possible we could *get* level shift to deal with him, but mostly in inspirations or temp powers within the content that deals with him itself. But not in the additional slots.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Actually now that I think about it needing at least one or two level shifts to even attempt the final battle with Tyrant (whatever form that may be in the future) seems like something VERY plausible.
|
I would actually be surprised if we saw the devs release the next batch of slots before the end of the year. Its 50/50 to me that we see any new slots within the next twelve months.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
The fact that the trials don't come with the same debuff as Tin Mage/Apex makes me wonder how hard-locked out of the content we'll truly be. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I actually expect another level shift or two within the next 5 slots. If it weren't for the current level shifts I would NOT have gone to tier 3 on some slots on MANY of my 50s. Most certainly not Lore. the level shift is the perfect carrot to get people to go for those tier 3s in slots they might not regularly have.
I also agree with GG (*shudders*) that I expect there WILL be stuff that will be incredibly (near impossible) hard to do without having spent time unlocking your slots. There is already precedent for this at the START of the Incarnate system: Tin Mage and Apex. What makes us think they would do such a thing at the start of the system and NOT in the late stages of the system? Actually now that I think about it needing at least one or two level shifts to even attempt the final battle with Tyrant (whatever form that may be in the future) seems like something VERY plausible. Other mmos do it. |
It's certainly possible, perhaps even problems that the final battle with Tyrant will assume you have some Incarnate shifts. If for no other reason than to ensure it isn't a cakewalk. But at this rate that could be many trials down the line. And even then, it's not certain that you'll strictly REQUIRE that folks have the Incarnate shifts. I think back to the now trivial STF and LRSF. Monumental challenges in the I7-I9 world of folks without billions invested in IOs. Even before Incarnates, these TFs were cake with IOs. But IOs aren't required to do those TFs. They just make it MUCH more manageable.
Good strategy and the same buffer overrun that has existed all along will still count for more than all the shinies in the world I'll bet.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
You've hit the nail on the head as to why I think we'll see it within the next 5 slots, BEFORE tyrant or Omega. Simply because the CURRENT slots + Ubered IO'd builds have taken us further in power than before.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The fact that the trials don't come with the same debuff as Tin Mage/Apex makes me wonder how hard-locked out of the content we'll truly be.
It's certainly possible, perhaps even problems that the final battle with Tyrant will assume you have some Incarnate shifts. If for no other reason than to ensure it isn't a cakewalk. But at this rate that could be many trials down the line. And even then, it's not certain that you'll strictly REQUIRE that folks have the Incarnate shifts. I think back to the now trivial STF and LRSF. Monumental challenges in the I7-I9 world of folks without billions invested in IOs. Even before Incarnates, these TFs were cake with IOs. But IOs aren't required to do those TFs. They just make it MUCH more manageable. Good strategy and the same buffer overrun that has existed all along will still count for more than all the shinies in the world I'll bet. |
And you're right the trials don't come with the same lockout. However, they do get easier with the tier 3s. Everyone having 200% defense is thing of beauty in the current trials.
And technically speaking those two tfs aren't really a lockout either. Some one who just buffs and heals and avoids all damage can successfully do those tfs. So it might not be a hard lockout but a soft one as you suggested.
EDIT: As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some in-trial tricks that eliminate the usefulness of buffs/debuffs in some stages, in the later trials. Just like taunting and control was slightly made less useful by one stage of the BAF.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Also, each new slot simply makes it harder and harder to design something that can challenge Incarnates as well as non-Incarnates - the Keyes Island Trial is already a step up from Lambda Sector, which is a step up from the BAF.
As more and more +2s and +3s appear, they're going to need tougher Trials to challenge them.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I'd actually bet money that we DO see ONE MORE slot within the next 12 months. But surely NONE before the end of the year.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Implausible, at least as being discussed. The devs have said the Praetorian story line has a scripted ending, and have also said for the current foreseeable future they are planning on expanding the current slots and not releasing the rest of the slots. Put two and two together and you get that the final battle with Tyrant will likely occur while we still have the same five slots. Therefore, its unlikely we'll *need* more level shift. Actually, its possible we could *get* level shift to deal with him, but mostly in inspirations or temp powers within the content that deals with him itself. But not in the additional slots.
I would actually be surprised if we saw the devs release the next batch of slots before the end of the year. Its 50/50 to me that we see any new slots within the next twelve months. |
But you make a good point, seeing as how the devs said the Incarnate system will expand beyond Praetoria/the initial slots.
Plus all the ******** about the Goatee Universe storyline, I agree, I can see the devs wanting to wrap that up quickly to move on to something else.
And the lockout could simply be: you need to have the ALPHA shift slotted or this is going to be INCREDIBLY difficult for you. But you can still run it: that is a soft lockout. IE, Tin Mage and Apex.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
And after that last post to Evil and Arcanaville, I think it's more likely they will use in-trail tricks in addition to needing ONE level shift, or JUST use in-trial tricks.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Aslo, each new slot simply makes it harder and harder to design something that can challenge Incarnates as well as non-Incarnates - the Keyes Island Trial is already a step up from Lambda Sector, which is a step up from the BAF.
As more and more +2s and +3s appear, they're going to need tougher Trials to challenge them. |
Ex: an av that can nullify buffs put on a character. AVs/EBs that are immune to debuffs or can auto shut off any debuffs you put on a character.
It will probably be tricks for various stages and not the entire trial. (See BAF).
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Like Tyrant being a 54+3 AV? |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And after that last post to Evil and Arcanaville, I think it's more likely they will use in-trail tricks in addition to needing ONE level shift, or JUST use in-trial tricks.
Ex: an av that can nullify buffs put on a character. AVs/EBs that are immune to debuffs or can auto shut off any debuffs you put on a character. It will probably be tricks for various stages and not the entire trial. (See BAF). |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Oh I have no doubt that Tyrant won't be a simple 54 AV.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like Tyrant being a 54+3 AV?
|
What other tricks he might bring I'm not going to guess. As my worse nightmares might come true.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Indeed, that was one of many points I was communicating! Reading really does open up a world of adventure! |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The league leader should have balanced the 2 teams a little better
|
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
I feel kind of sheepish asking, but I normally only see Alpha and Reactive icons while forming the league. Where can I look to see icons for Destiny and Lore?
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Couldn't you just cycle through the teams and check the incarnate buff icons by right clicking? Technically you'd need to know the names, but you just have to remember shift is in Destiny and Lore, and Total/Partial Core/Radial are the tier 3s (the tier 4s have some variety but are even more obvious)? Not the fastest way, but league leaders usually have a fair amount of time to check out characters as the league is assembled.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I don't think you can. They are click powers (your PBAOE buff or summoning pet.)
OTOH, I'm finally seeing why the logic in seemingly gating content strictly behind the iTrial content. It isn't. It's gating it behind iTrials and/or (AFAICT) Paragon Points purchases. Which means that a lot of those emotes/auras that I felt should have had no purpose being gated behind level 50 content probably aren't *only* gated behind that.
We'll just have to see if that's the case, but if it is, then I'm likely to re-up my subscription.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
Yeah, this is a case where the marketing machine and everything had some really bad timing. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because making it a choice between Incarnate Merits and Paragon Points would be an excellent, excellent compromise.
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
OTOH, I'm finally seeing why the logic in seemingly gating content strictly behind the iTrial content. It isn't. It's gating it behind iTrials and/or (AFAICT) Paragon Points purchases. Which means that a lot of those emotes/auras that I felt should have had no purpose being gated behind level 50 content probably aren't *only* gated behind that.
We'll just have to see if that's the case, but if it is, then I'm likely to re-up my subscription. |
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Indeed. Man, I can only imagine how hard it was for ZWill and crew to keep silent about this during the fallout from the 20.5 announcement. You just know it was killing them not to be able to chime in and say, "calm down, we've already ironed out a way to unlock the auras/etc without running itrials.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Yeah, this is a case where the marketing machine and everything had some really bad timing. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because making it a choice between Incarnate Merits and Paragon Points would be an excellent, excellent compromise.
|
Still, it wouldn't shock me all that much if the goodies dumped into the Incarnate store remain there for the simple fact that they don't like removing things once they hit live.
*Waiting to see*
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
I guess my repeatedly saying "I would pay for this!" was not landing on deaf ears. That's not quite what I had in mind, however, not to this extent anyway.
But, yes, unlocking this with some of the FREE Paragon Points (we need a better name for this) that VIPs get would be a good compromise, provided I don't need all 400 and then some just to unlock I21 features.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I've noticed more failures on the trials lately. Actually, I should say the BAF. The prisoner phase use to be a no brainer but it seems people are failing it more and more lately.