I am not appreciating the Trial Grind


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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
But the complaints about States... yeah, legit. He did *technically* tell the truth about it - but he really lawyered it, so to speak (going by the letter instead of the spirit of what he said.) "We won't make any more drastic changes to powers like GDN." What did we get next? ED. No, the powers themselves didn't change... but it was a wholesale change to the way they were slotted - and worked afterward. If anything cemented the image of Jack as dishonest, it was that.
It also wasn't helped by his comments about changes to the Regeneration powerset -- the 'small tweak' that changed Regeneration to the point where they had to issue a freespec so that people could fix their builds under the new version, or Jack swearing up and down that Regen was grossly overpowered, because they'd run a Claws/Regen Scrapper on their internal test server and were able to take down +7 spawns for an eight-player team solo -- despite widespread claims of fewmets from the players -- and the change was rammed through and kept even after Jack came back after the change was put in place and admitted that their internal test server was bugged and didn't decrease to-hit chance and damage when attacking higher-level targets, so their 'godlike' Claws/Regen Scrapper was hitting about ten times as often for about ten times as much damage as it should have been -- but the changes were going to stand regardless, even though the reason they were made was completely bogus.


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If you're going to ape the 'heroic' nature of the MMO market's big gorilla, you really should wait until you have a comparable amount of content to repeat.

I mean that game has what, seven to ten different maps that can be played at end game, once a day each?

Where as we have, two, soon to be three, which can be repeated as many times as you want each day.

Personally I belive they should of waited until they had at least five or six trials together, before launching the Incarnate Trial system.


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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Personally I belive they should of waited until they had at least five or six trials together, before launching the Incarnate Trial system.
But then we'd have been raging at them for not adding it sooner


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Originally Posted by reiella View Post
To be honest, I think it's more a case of a hump in power levels. 30s feel boring to me on most of my characters. Just more enhancements mostly [which are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're more useful to me once I get 50 and start spending the moneyz].
With getting more powers due to inherit fitness the 30s help fill out builds, but it's stuck in the middle for leveling and you aren't leveling fast anymore and the end game TFs are generally a ways off. The 30s have always been a death sentence for me playing characters. It would help if there were more W.T.Fs. for those characters to run since as I previously pointed out, the level 45-50 TFs with a ITF thrown in a couple of times is really what has been the focus.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But then we'd have been raging at them for not adding it sooner

This, for sure. I feel like no matter which way you slice it, people would be complaining. Personally I think the incarnate system rules and I am nothing but optimistic about all the new stuff we're going to be getting. While the rewards system is a very big issue for me and many others, I honestly feel like the developers of this game listen to their community and once they have the resources they will be able to rectify it to a point that the player base is happy with.

Of course the trials are going to be a grind right now... The system was just introduced. Sure, they could've kept it locked up until they had 50 trials and a solo path done, but then you wouldn't have anything to do but get t4 alphas on every single one of your alts, plus all the new 50's you get in the next year.

I prefer the gradual release of new content- There is going to be something awesome to look forward to for quite a while guaranteed. If it all came out at once, everyone would still play through it all, get all their stuff, and then say "what's next?"


 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
I don't get that either. Alpha is part of incarnate. Why does it have a "different" system at all?

The devs figured out that having three types of inf was a ridiculous idea. Why didn't they learn from that mistake with the incarnate system?

Again, scrap the shard system entirely. Do a wholesale swap of shards to threads everywhere they show up. Have all shard components converted to equivalent random thread components. Be done with it.
The new shard to thread conversion prices will help with this some, though I would still probably agree. I argued that adding a new currency was a bad idea in the I21 beta, too.

There are supposed reasons you want to keep the two separate since the new incarnate powers blow the old content out of the water, but I'm skeptical on that, especially since they're keeping most of the +1 level boosts for the trials. And you can keep the thread drop the same, making the trials a better way to get components no matter what.


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I'm pretty sure the reason they had to implement the shard to thread conversion mechanic is because they didn't want people with stockpiled shards to be able to have all their new stuff slotted without doing a BAF or Lambda once. They're putting out new content and they want the community to have incentive to play it. If you could just use the shards and components you've had stockpiled for a year on all the new stuff, why would you bother running trials at all? I would hate to spend a bunch of time designing new and challenging content for an awesome game and not be able to offer a new and unique reward for completing it.


 

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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
I would hate to spend a bunch of time designing new and challenging content for an awesome game and not be able to offer a new and unique reward for completing it.
I don't think this game has ever had a problem with players not devouring new content. That's pretty much what players do. You don't have to give them any bribe other than "look, new thing!"


 

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If the developers were so paranoid about players not playing the trials, I would have thought a far more elegant solution would have been to keep a few components locked behind them the same way that you can't craft a tier 3 Alpha ability without a Notice of the Well. (Therefore obliging you to either cough up 80 shards or, far easier, run whatever the WST was that week.) That way, you could still make some progress doing other content but would have to try the trials in order to complete your recipe requirements.

Instead, by locking them all behind the new trials, it's impossible to progress in any meaningful way outside of the trials. Oh, and of course, we then get a fun* new currency and yet more annoying, story-free, hideous looking vendors cluttering up the place.



(*For 'fun' read 'unnecessary and confusing'. The sarcasm lever seems to be set to 'high' today. )


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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
For that matter, getting that paycheck, and thus being a "professional", does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing either. As I recall, Castle is on-record has having admitted that Arcanaville understood certain things better than he did - the "amateur" teaching the "professional".
I don't recall Castle ever saying that publicly, but if anyone has a link to it post that puppy: that's a keeper.

While he was here, my relationship with Castle was very much one where he would graciously take time to teach me the parts of the game system I had questions with, and I would return the favor by pointing out every mistake he ever made, plus every mistake everyone else ever made, given the rules he just taught me.

That ended up working much better than it sounds like it would for almost six years.

I had my share of eureka moments and lucky guesses, of course, but that's not the same thing as schooling Castle. Although if someone can find that quote, I'm still using it.


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Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution View Post
QFT.

I also find it weird that people are now saying the Alpha system is so perfect. I remember a lot of gnashing of teeth when it first came out also. It took a bit of time for it to be fleshed out and have more options added to it.
Because, while the Alpha system wasn't always ideal (those shard drops are mean when the RNG is in a bad mood...), it was a helluva lot better than 'Grind X over and over again. No, you cannot do Y, or Z. You can do X. And you will like it.'


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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion View Post
Yep, I am in agreement here. Almost everyone in beta was hating the random rewards...but...they're still here
Please don't imply a majority, because it wasn't there. It was, like most issues, the people who argued for it which could have been a majority, but no one has done a poll to my knowledge.

Besides, the system has 3 independent deterministic means for earning rare/very rare components. I've read this thread and people talk of doing 100 trials and not getting a very rare. Well, 30 Empyreans means you get your very rare. The drops at the end of the Trials are like random loot in other MMOs. It's there along with the token system so that every playthrough isn't always the same. The little gambling element of it is appreciated by me.

As to the overall topic. Just play. Do the WST, do the trials, solo. Have fun in the game and the rewards will come. I haven't done a trial in over a week. I had a couple ideas for alts and so I made alts. Been having a lot of fun with them. Not been stressed out by wanting shiny things. The incarnate powers are nice. They make your character much stronger. But ultimately, if you start to hate the game for having earned them, was it worth it?


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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
I don't think this game has ever had a problem with players not devouring new content. That's pretty much what players do. You don't have to give them any bribe other than "look, new thing!"
That makes us all sound like we have the attention span of a

Ooo! Shiney!


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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
As to the overall topic. Just play. Do the WST, do the trials, solo. Have fun in the game and the rewards will come. I haven't done a trial in over a week. I had a couple ideas for alts and so I made alts. Been having a lot of fun with them. Not been stressed out by wanting shiny things. The incarnate powers are nice. They make your character much stronger. But ultimately, if you start to hate the game for having earned them, was it worth it?
I think a good bit of the fear still lingering is because we are unsure about the consequences of choosing to ignore the Incarnate system right now.
I've made the choice not to participate in the system because it just doesn't offer me anything. However, I do have a fear in the back of my mind that if I don't jump on the bandwagon now...

I'll end up being locked out of all future content by default. After eagerly anticipating 'The Coming Storm' for all these years I'm now seriously worried that if I don't Grind away like mad that I won't be able to even see the zone that it's in...

That's my fear and I'm sure it's shared by quite a few of the ones that have made the choice not to use the system as it stands now.

I'm done complaining about it though, now I'm just keeping an eye on the debate and hoping for some light at the end.


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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
I think a good bit of the fear still lingering is because we are unsure about the consequences of choosing to ignore the Incarnate system right now.
I've made the choice not to participate in the system because it just doesn't offer me anything. However, I do have a fear in the back of my mind that if I don't jump on the bandwagon now...
I don't think that concern is sound. The devs have never locked players into a hard 'gear check' form of progression. The BAF and Lambda trials were tested for weeks without even having the Alpha level shift. Having a very strong Invention build helps, but isn't required. The new Keyes trials doesn't require that you have the earlier slots. None of the new high level TFs added since Issue 9 (ITF, LGTF, Kahn/Barracuda) require strong Inventions builds.

The only content that strictly could be seen as having a gear check is Apex/Tin Mage. And they appear in hindsight to be an anomaly. So, coming from a game (EQ2) which has a merciless gear check form of progression, I can understand your fear. I just don't think it's likely that your fears will be realized in this game.


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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I don't think that concern is sound. The devs have never locked players into a hard 'gear check' form of progression. The BAF and Lambda trials were tested for weeks without even having the Alpha level shift. Having a very strong Invention build helps, but isn't required. The new Keyes trials doesn't require that you have the earlier slots. None of the new high level TFs added since Issue 9 (ITF, LGTF, Kahn/Barracuda) require strong Inventions builds.

The only content that strictly could be seen as having a gear check is Apex/Tin Mage. And they appear in hindsight to be an anomaly. So, coming from a game (EQ2) which has a merciless gear check form of progression, I can understand your fear. I just don't think it's likely that your fears will be realized in this game.
This quote from Second Measure suggests otherwise:

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"Eventually, once we release all of the Incarnate Slots, you’ll even be a little overpowered for the first waves of Incarnate Trials, and by then, we’ll have something much more challenging for you to do with your newfound power. (Evil chuckle redacted.)"
Eventually, they're going to give us content that we'll totally need some Incarnate powers to complete - especially if the next 5 slots offer more level shifts.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Eventually, they're going to give us content that we'll totally need some Incarnate powers to complete - especially if the next 5 slots offer more level shifts.
I have reason to believe that at least in the near future that will not be the case. Maybe after they add the next 5 slots as you said. But then I don't expect another level shift until Omega.


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The devs have never locked players into a hard 'gear check' form of progression. The BAF and Lambda trials were tested for weeks without even having the Alpha level shift.
The average PUG, without Incarnate abilities or strong Invention slotting, is completely wasting its time in any Incarnate content.


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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I have reason to believe that at least in the near future that will not be the case. Maybe after they add the next 5 slots as you said. But then I don't expect another level shift until Omega.
I know, but they do seem to have a long-term plan for content designed to challenge players with all 10 slots, which would mean that it'd be pretty tough for non-Incarnates to take part - for example, enemies in the Coming Storm could be 54s with their own level shifts - fighting 54+4s would put non-Incarnate in the same situation as un-sotted Alphas on the Tin Mage and Apex TFs - plus, they can also add our Incarnate powers to mobs.


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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
The average PUG, without Incarnate abilities or strong Invention slotting, is completely wasting its time in any Incarnate content.
Depends on the makeup of the PUG. Sufficient enough support with a few tanks would make up for individual deficiencies in folks' build. Yes, the normal PUG doesn't have such a well designed makeup so I concede the point for the majority of PUGs.


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Personally, what I think we need is an Incarnate difficulty setting. Flip it on and any TF you form is scaled to 54, mobs get the boosted tohit like they do in trials, and incarnate abilities including all level shifts function regardless of the original level of the TF. Threads would drop instead of shards and at the end of the TF you get a choice of taking incarnate salvage instead of reward merits, possibly with shorter or easier TFs giving commons/uncommings and longer or difficult ones giving rares/very rares, or just leave them as random and have a TF give you X pieces of salvage based on the length of the TF like how merits are awarded.

All it requires is level 54 versions of mobs which for many groups don't exist at the moment, and admittedly that's a fairly hefty chunk of development to make those. Especially if they decide to throw in little mob-specific gimmicks like how the 9CUs in the BAF gain damage buffs over time if you leave them alone. But it'd open up all the existing content as potential paths to incarnate power, and take the game back to being able to do whatever you feel like on any given day and still make noticable progress, even if that progress isn't necessarily optimal. Especially if they extend it to Ouroboros arcs which are technically TFs, mechanically. And AE arcs which are the same but would be way harder to balance.


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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
The average PUG, without Incarnate abilities or strong Invention slotting, is completely wasting its time in any Incarnate content.
I wonder, in an average PuG of people who want to run an iTrial, what the ratio is of strong IO builds to decent IO builds to mixed builds to SO only builds to "who needs enhancements" builds? Also I wonder what the ratio is anymore on PuGs of people who have all their incarnate stuff to those who just have some to those who are just starting to unlock.


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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I wonder, in an average PuG of people who want to run an iTrial, what the ratio is of strong IO builds to decent IO builds to mixed builds to SO only builds to "who needs enhancements" builds? Also I wonder what the ratio is anymore on PuGs of people who have all their incarnate stuff to those who just have some to those who are just starting to unlock.
The other night I ended up on a Lambda trial that was almost perfectly 50/50 Incarnates and non-Incarnates.

While I won't deny there were more factors at work than just Incarnate powers, it was telling that the grenade team, which had all of the Incarnates sans myself (a Dark/Stone Brute, so I couldn't exactly act as a strong trailblazer), completely destroyed that phase in the time it took my team to get two acids, at which point they transferred over and finished it off for us.


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Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
The other night I ended up on a Lambda trial that was almost perfectly 50/50 Incarnates and non-Incarnates.

While I won't deny there were more factors at work than just Incarnate powers, it was telling that the grenade team, which had all of the Incarnates sans myself (a Dark/Stone Brute, so I couldn't exactly act as a strong trailblazer), completely destroyed that phase in the time it took my team to get two acids, at which point they transferred over and finished it off for us.
The league leader should have balanced the 2 teams a little better


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The league leader should have balanced the 2 teams a little better
Or the league leader though, let's speed through this side, then jump over to the other side as a valid tactic.

That said, I've noticed the difference between a heavily Incarnate trial run and a low on Incarnates (or even just a mix of +1's and +0's) and the "Mostly +3's" but that's to be expected.

It's no different than running them and succeeding at them when they first cam out. A little rougher, but doable.


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