Would you pay for an Incarnate booster pack? I would

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Ha.. that could mean the game might be gone before you ever manage to unlock it all!

Stupid... sooo... stupid...

Y'know, I've been doing a lot of thinking about my personal feelings on this issue. A thought occurred to me this morning that I think may explain how I (and maybe some others) feel.

Every MMO that I have ever played that HAD an endgame, was ABOUT that endgame. In every one of them, the phrase "the real game starts at the cap" is bandied about all the time, and for those games it's true. I remember a guildmate in A Certain Fantasy MMO asking once what he could do to help out the guild. The response he got was "get to the cap and gear up for raiding, that's how you help the guild."

Obviously, CoH has really never had a true endgame until now. The focus of the game has always been about leveling characters, and having lots of alts. Now we have an endgame for the folks that have asked for it. But as I've already said, I've never seen an MMO that had an endgame that didn't focus entirely on said endgame. I think that is the reason for my concern, and the reason I'm fighting tooth and nail for solo options.

I just don't want to see CoH go the route of other MMO's. Are we at that point now? No of course not. But auras and capes at level 1 for alts is I feel a step in that direction. I understand the Devs wanting to give people lots of rewards as part of the endgame. But I don't want to see that endgame become the only way to get cool new stuff in game. I really do worry that is what will happen. One need only look at the entire rest of the MMO industry to understand why I worry.

We've had 7 years of an established culture of altism in this game. Having lots of alts doesn't typically mesh well with endgame systems. And given the number of people I've seen complain about how tedious the grind is to "gear up" all their alts in the Incarnate system, I would daresay the same holds true here, at least for now. So no, I do not begrudge you your fun, not at all. But I do not want your fun to become the only valid path to rewards in this game. Call me a doomsayer if you must, but there's an entire industry of precedent fueling my feelings on this issue. Announcements like the most recent one aren't helping in that regard either. Now if the Devs come back and say "hey we're also adding these other auras and travel power graphics that you get this other, solo way" I'll be just happy as a clam.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. I really need to go to work now.

...didn't they raise tuition prices over there? o.o

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

That's precisely what offering this stuff for sale would do. As it is, when you see someone kitted out with Incarnate stuff, you know they've put a lot of time and effort into their character. Offer it for sale, and let's be honest. Everyone and their brother is going to buy the stuff because it's just so damn easy to fork out some cash instead. Hell, I'd buy 'em, and I do like the trials.

This completely throws the concept of Incarnate shinies in the trash, and it would become just another Booster Pack. What people keep missing and/or ignoring is that these are intended to be long-term rewards. It's also intended to be completely optional. I'm pretty sure the devs are smart enough to not make it a matter of, "Shell out $10 and this reward that we designed to take months will only take you the 30 seconds your computer requires to log in." This whole thread is moot.

I swear, first people complain about how the Incarnate trials gate their character progression. "I HAVE to have fully level-shifted 50s!!! Waaah, unfair!" Okay, so here's some stuff that has diddly to do with your character progression, it's completely cosmetic. "You can't even gate non-gameplay stuff!!! Waaah, unfair!" Let's just get to the point, why don't we? You don't like Incarnate trials, thus you want absolutely nothing gated behind them. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Because no matter what long-term reward it is that they put back there, someone's been slapped in the face, someone's getting ignored (god forbid anyone has to tolerate doing anything they don't want to do!), someone's going to whine and moan.

Even more generally, I don't even think it's the Incarnate trials that have people all astir. It's the whole concept of any long-term rewards, period. I've seen these same arguments break out every single time the devs add something to the game that takes more than two or three weeks to achieve. Every. Single. Time. It's been going on ever since launch, when people were complaining that it took too long to get to level 40 (soon after changed to 50). People complained about the number of Hamidon trials they had to run to trick out their 50s. People complained that some of the badges "required" farming to get. People complained that it's "impossible" to get purple IOs on their characters. And so on, ad nauseum.

Here, we have long-term rewards with a bonus. Once you unlock them, you're done. You don't ever have to unlock them again for any of your characters, ever. Instead of thinking, though, "Hey, that's awesome, a LOT better than the old way of having to run these things on every character!", no, we're all so tunnel-vision focused on how awful it is to have any long-term rewards, we sit here and wallow in misery, posting a constant litany of complaints in every thread. We want everything there is to have in the game, and damn it, we want it NOW!

Most of the time, the devs put the stuff in the game anyway. Then within a few weeks, farmers start earning it. Within a few weeks after that, avid players start earning it. Within a few months, average players start earning it. Within a year or two, damn near everyone has it. And you know what? Somewhere around the few months mark, it just doesn't seem like a big deal any more. "You don't have it? Well, I have it, so it must not be so impossible to get it after all. All you have to do is work a bit on it, and you can have it, too." The day will come, I promise, when people who are just casually doing Incarnate trials now will be decked out in their Incarnate armor shinies. Of course, by then, we'll probably have other long-term shinies to earn, and we'll have to go through this same damn exercise in forum frustration yet again.

Edit: And you know what's particularly frustrating to me? The fact that there's a firmly established precedent for the stuff people are bemoaning to be made easier eventually. Remember experience smoothing, which made getting to level 50 a lot faster? Remember the Statesman Task Force, which made it relatively easy to earn Hamidon Enhancements? Remember Reward Merits being added, which gave you a guaranteed path to the purple IOs you want? There's no doubt in my mind that at some point, it will be much easier to get Incarnate shinies once the newness has worn off and other long-term rewards are added to the game, but make no mistake; there is no compromise on that NOW! part.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

See, that's not quite what people are "missing or ignoring."

"Long term rewards" being used as a reason for purpling out a character, for instance, or (more relevantly) getting the T4s, I have no problem with. You're going for the top-tier of power, it shouldn't be easy. And they're going to have a noticable impact in-game as you hit harder/faster/with higher defense/etc.

But for *costume pieces and auras?* Seriously?

I've already left feedback on this in the appropriate place, but the current prices are silly, especially with (at least) 5 more Incarnate tree "slots" to come. The auras don't scream out "incarnate." Nor do the emotes ("I'm an Incarnate, look at me be out of breath or fall over!")

I'm *hoping* the costume pieces have a MASSIVE drop in price - I wouldn't want to burn Empyrian merits on anything but a *full* set, and nowhere near 25 of them for that. The pieces are *not* worth that huge cost on beta right now. Nowhere near.

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This is one of the most intelligent and well-thought-out posts I've seen from someone I've been arguing against. I understand your concern. Believe it or not, I've had some of the same concerns. Just because I want end game content doesn't make me oblivious to the thought that they could go overboard. I wish I could show you incontrovertible proof that it won't happen.

What I can say, though, is that we have a history of getting long-term rewards in the game, and eventually, alternate paths and shortcuts are rolled out as new long-term rewards are released. I pointed out some above: experience "smoothing" to make the journey to 50 shorter. The Statesman Task Force to avoid grinding Hamidon trials. Merit Rewards and Alignment Merits to avoid have to spend billions on the market for purple IOs.

Also, so far, the little nuggets of information about Issue 21 have had exactly zero mentioned additions to the Incarnate system; what little we know is about a new zone (presumably not an Incarnate-only zone) and improvement of low-level content. I'm thinking that since the last two issues have been Incarnate-heavy, the next one will be Incarnate-light, and hopefully that will help assuage the concern that City of Heroes is becoming a purely Incarnate-focused game.

I'm not really sure why that is a bad idea. The Incarnate System has character progression and badges. No reason to tie a bunch of generic auras/emotes/emblems/costume pieces to it.

This.

I don't care at all about Incarnate powers, and I don't care if other people have them (although I won't team with them because I hate feeling like I could have been door-sitting for all I'm contributing). Ditto purples. Ditto rare recipes and billion-inf builds. Let people work for them all they want, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

But making purely cosmetic items that have nothing to do with being an Incarnate only purchasable by iMerits -- and way too many iMerits, at that -- is inexplicable in a game that's always been about having huge flexibility in customizing your character from level 1.

(Besides, it'll lead to more crappy costumes around the City. Remember when wings were rare and status symbols, so everyone who got a wing costume drop stuck it on their costume, whether or not it actually looked good?)

I'll say it again: long-term content. Plus, once you've put in those 134 days (or 250, or 365, or whatever), you never have to do it again. Not for any of your other characters, ever, period.

Plus, speaking of strawmen, it's not like you have to put in 134 days to see any progress. That's 134 days to completely earn everything, starting immediately after it's added to the game.

For perspective, how long did it take someone immediately after Issue 11 launched to completely "purple out" their character? Keep in mind, a lot of those recipes and/or enhancements didn't show up on the market for a while. And once you were done, how long did it take you to "purple out" your second character?

I'm thinking 134 days, even of constant farming, would have been generous at the time. And, of course, then if you wanted more purples on other characters, that would have been even more time sunk into the system, where as here, it's immediately unlocked.

Plus, I'm not a mechanics guru, but does that 134 days calculation take into account the fact that you can earn both Empyrian and Astral merits during trials, plus any conversions of Shards/Thread/whatevers you earn along the way too? Or is it based on one trial = one and only one reward?

If they start a pattern of "Issue # = normal content, Issue #.5 = Incarnate improvements," I wouldn't actually argue.... with the occasional combined issue for big events.

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What reason would that be, then?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Yes, but look what you're comparing:

Purple recipes = actual power increase. "Superior" IOs, on their own, PLUS pretty hefty bonuses (10% recharge, for instance.) With that sort of power increase, "Long term goal/rare" makes sense.

Versus:

Costume pieces. Which, if we were (say) Aion, where armor pieces make a difference to cast time, movement speed, etc, would make perfect sense (and they do have it there - you need so many silver/gold medals from assisting in Fortress raids to get the top end pieces, and it takes a fair bit of work.) However, here... they're nothing but shinies. And really don't justify the cost assigned to them.

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That it's incarnate!

>.>

It's the self-declared holy document argument. "This book is true, it's the word of <deity/s/prophet/s> and infallible!" "Where's the proof?" "In the book. It says so."

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You are right, that is for everything. Uhm...*grabs calculator*
50 days for the full on, glowy armour set, then.

Even then, however, there is a HUGE difference between 'Purpling out' a character, which has a marked difference on performance, character strength and all that...and purely cosmetic costume pieces that have 0 effect on the game mechanics.

The two are simply not comparable in the same way.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Misleading FTL.

It only costs 150 Emps for the glowy Acension armor.

It costs 401 for:
Glowy Armor
Basic Armor
14 Auras
11 Emblems
9 Emotes

To get the entire set of glowy armor only costs 150 (at these current placeholder prices). If you want EVERYTHING else as well as the glowy armor, it's 401.

I think they should keep the Incarnate Armor gated so that trialers that want to grind to it and show it off can do so. The rest of the stuff is just costume options, with no real attachment to Incarnates or the trials and should just be added to the costume options for free (or at most released in a booster).

Personally I have no interest in Incarnate Armor even for my Incarnate characters; I don't play CoH to look like everyone else. But I know for some MMO players they like for people to see them and be able to to tell that they've reached high levels of gameplay and the Incarnate Armor is for them.

The reason is actually much simpler - so that some people can take pleasure in other people not having what they have. And THIS particular sense of "accomplishment" I have no problem with "annoying," as others have put it already.

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You know what's funny for me, though? I ask for less forced teaming and I'm told that this is a business and the developers need to make money. I offer to pay for it, but then the argument changes and it's no longer about money all of a sudden.

All of the arguments, all of the bickering and all of the put-down in the world will not change one basic fact: I am willing to pay for my cosmetics, and would in fact prefer to do so rather than unlock them in-game. And I intend to make this crystal clear to anyone on the development team, so that next time they think about adding more costumes, they'll keep this in mind.

I do not care in the slightest that this may well mean I'll have to pay for ALL future costume additions. I simply will, safe in the knowledge that if I hadn't, they'd have stuck them behind some asinine unlock prerequisite. I will pay for them, and I will do so with a big, fat smile on my face knowing that I can actually use what I'm getting when I want to use it, how I want to use it and as soon as it becomes available.

Game balance is one thing. Costume pieces are not part of game balance. And I am willing to pay money to ensure that this remains true in practice.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm sorry but costume pieces shouldn't be comparable to tier 3ing out a character. As Arcanaville and numerous others pointed out, that's ludicrous.