Would you pay for an Incarnate booster pack? I would
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-31 16:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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On the surface, yeah, I agree.|
Originally Posted by Organica
Anyway it's kind of funny that you offer up a booster and people cry "why don't we get free stuff anymore?" and then you introduce a free (and gated) armor set and people want to pay for it.
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I for one don't mind the fact that the new free stuff is gated on principle, but the things that bother me are twofold:
1. Some of the new stuff seems more like general superpower themed things which don't make sense as gated endgame content. The Ancension costume parts and auras, and the stuff that's directly tied to Incarnateness, I think, are just fine as unlockables to Incarnates. To me, that's the whole point.
But the stuff like the other non-Incarnate auras and emblems only available to Incarnates (such as Pixie Dust, Binary, Pixels, etc.)? Doesn't make sense to me.
2. Compared to the stuff that's buyable with other forms of merits, there's not enough diversity in what you can do to earn the Empyrean and Astral Merits, which are what you need to buy this stuff.
A lot of people don't like and don't want to run the same two/three trials over and over for them, and much of the appeal that's kept City of Heroes from being a grind (to me) is that there is a lot of diverse ways to go about earning merits and inf, and the myriad story arcs help distract you from this (suspension of disbelief, as it were).
If you're made to keep running the same one or two things over and over again just to earn a specific reward, the fun turns into farming, and then the farm turns into a grind.
I appreciate that we're getting a third trial to help expand on that, but I think people want something different from a trial altogether. Some alternate way to earn at least a few merits. Maybe I'm naive, but I think the uproar wouldn't have been as bad if the methods for earning Empyrean and Astral Merits were as diverse as other merit types.
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In your example, there's a difference between "people" and "people" that you can't catch with that phrasing. "One set of" people were displeased with Booster Packs and insisted on free costume updates, as well. I can name Bad Influence off the top of my head, but there were others. These are not the people offering to buy in this thread. "Another set of" people are now asking to buy these things instead of unlock them, and I've always, always been in this camp. I've HATED costume unlocks ever since I2 and the "Capes at 20" fiasco, and my opinion hasn't changed. Sure, I have more financial stability now, but my opinion remains the same - I would rather buy costumes than unlock them in-game.|
Originally Posted by Organica
Anyway it's kind of funny that you offer up a booster and people cry "why don't we get free stuff anymore?" and then you introduce a free (and gated) armor set and people want to pay for it.
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This is a simple case of different people wanting different things. I still suspect that if you give costume items both an unlock and a paid option, you will end up pleasing all but the most extreme fundamentalists.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Haven't checked out the armor myself (other than screenshots posted to the boards), but if that's the case I'd agree with you.|
Originally Posted by LittleDavid
On the surface, yeah, I agree.
I for one don't mind the fact that the new free stuff is gated on principle, but the things that bother me are twofold: 1. Some of the new stuff seems more like general superpower themed things which don't make sense as gated endgame content. The Ancension costume parts and auras, and the stuff that's directly tied to Incarnateness, I think, are just fine as unlockables to Incarnates. To me, that's the whole point. But the stuff like the other non-Incarnate auras and emblems only available to Incarnates (such as Pixie Dust, Binary, Pixels, etc.)? Doesn't make sense to me. |
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Originally Posted by LittleDavid
2. Compared to the stuff that's buyable with other forms of merits, there's not enough diversity in what you can do to earn the Empyrean and Astral Merits, which are what you need to buy this stuff.
A lot of people don't like and don't want to run the same two/three trials over and over for them, and much of the appeal that's kept City of Heroes from being a grind (to me) is that there is a lot of diverse ways to go about earning merits and inf, and the myriad story arcs help distract you from this (suspension of disbelief, as it were). If you're made to keep running the same one or two things over and over again just to earn a specific reward, the fun turns into farming, and then the farm turns into a grind. I appreciate that we're getting a third trial to help expand on that, but I think people want something different from a trial altogether. Some alternate way to earn at least a few merits. Maybe I'm naive, but I think the uproar wouldn't have been as bad if the methods for earning Empyrean and Astral Merits were as diverse as other merit types. |
Anyway that's more of a discussion for the "solo incarnate" thread I think -- it wouldn't solve the problem for people who would like this armor at level 1. But on the whole I agree that more options, and more incentives to run other content, would be nice.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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IE you can't please all of the people all of the time. It just amused me, someone's always going to complain no matter what you do.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In your example, there's a difference between "people" and "people" that you can't catch with that phrasing.
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But I think if there's ever a reason to have unlockable costume options, it's here -- a new cool look to confirm your incarnate status. That's practically built in to the superhero genre after all -- you power up, you get a cooler costume. Jean Grey becomes Phoenix, new look, new name, new costume and powers. Sailor Moon gets a fancy new outfit when she powers up. Pumbumbler's whole holiday "incarnate costume" contest was built around that idea, so in the end I do like the idea of having incarnate armor for incarnates only. Sorry about that.
But if they eventually add a solo path that's not completely unreasonable, that will appease some people, if not all.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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I usually have a question I like to ask about that: Is it wrong to ask that this be placed in the hands of the player? If someone wants to denote his rise to power with a "better" costume by his or her standards, then I heartily approve. I've done the same. The editor gives us the freedom to do so. I kind of want it to give us the freedom of not doing so and, more than anything else, not having to do so.|
Originally Posted by Organica
But I think if there's ever a reason to have unlockable costume options, it's here -- a new cool look to confirm your incarnate status. That's practically built in to the superhero genre after all -- you power up, you get a cooler costume. Jean Grey becomes Phoenix, new look, new name, new costume and powers. Sailor Moon gets a fancy new outfit when she powers up. Pumbumbler's whole holiday "incarnate costume" contest was built around that idea, so in the end I do like the idea of having incarnate armor for incarnates only. Sorry about that.
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Let the player decide.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's kind of hard to feel special about your cool incarnate look and status if a level 1 guy fresh off the creation screen looks exactly the same. ^_^
It's also kind of pointless to say, "As a reward for making it to level 50 and making to the incarnate levels, here's a cool new look" and then also offer the same thing to the level 1 guy who forked over $10. It's not much of a reward at that point.
There are few enough rewards in the game. There's one thread somewhere else on the boards I read this week which basically says that a lot of players (or former players) feel like the game stops at 32, because your character does not become significantly more powerful from 32-50. (Something I disagree with, but I tend to us set IOs and I begin slotting at 30 so I get enormous benefit as I add new slots from 32-50.) But in general, those people have a point: gaining new powers and becoming more powerful (and looking cooler) is ultimately what drives many people forward in an MMO, and in a game where you can look like whatever you want at level 1, have a solid attack chain very early on, and get the biggest power in your primary at level 32, there are fewer rewards for making the final push to 50. Is it so terrible that one single armor set be reserved for those who've made it that far? I don't think it breaks anything, and it gives those who've earned it a way to feel special that doesn't actually have an impact on the game.
Anyway, that's what the devs apparently intended for this armor set. It looks pretty cool. If I could create a new level 1 character with this armor set tomorrow, I probably would. But I understand why they made it an incarnate reward, why they designed it as an incarnate reward from the start.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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It's kind of hard to feel special with prefab costume regardless of circumstances. That's my entire point - giving people all of one set isn't the path to making anyone feel more special. It makes everyone feel even more like a copy of everyone else. Incarnate powers are bad enough with blurring the boundaries ATs, and now we're offering to dress everyone the same, too?|
Originally Posted by Organica
It's kind of hard to feel special about your cool incarnate look and status if a level 1 guy fresh off the creation screen looks exactly the same. ^_^
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Anecdote: When I bought the Animal Pack, one of the first things I thought to do was a basic tiger character. The first day I logged into the tutorial after the Pack went live (with another concept), I zoned in standing next to two basic tiger characters belonging to completely unrelated people who had not just managed to make nearly the exact same character I'd intended to make but managed to make the exact same character as each other.
"You are a unique snowflake" is probably the worst, most depressing method of making people feel "special." When the next big shiny is the exact same thing everyone else gets, that's not unique or special. What's special is a good costume design, and a good costume design is much less a question of the precise pieces used and much more a question of design talent, freedom of imagination and good taste. To try and offer people a "better" costume is madness in the extreme, because what makes a "better" costume is not numerically definable. It's both unique to the person doing the judging and strongly dependent on practical uniqueness.
You know how people rolled their eyes at everyone who made a Neo clone when trenchcoats came out and everyone who made a Green Arrow clone when Archery came out? Do you know how many people will roll their eyes when they see those Lineage II shoulders? When costume items stop being about good design and become about shallow flash, the costume design system has failed catastrophically.
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| It's also kind of pointless to say, "As a reward for making it to level 50 and making to the incarnate levels, here's a cool new look" and then also offer the same thing to the level 1 guy who forked over $10. It's not much of a reward at that point. |
Furthermore, I will never, ever agree with a system which encourages people to want others to not have someone. Any time someone derives satisfaction from the fact that I DON'T have something, my sympathy evaporates on the spot. I still firmly believe that everyone should have access to all cosmetic options, then let those who are truly good enough at making costumes shine and those who don't care ignore that side of the game entirely.
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| Anyway, that's what the devs apparently intended for this armor set. It looks pretty cool. If I could create a new level 1 character with this armor set tomorrow, I probably would. But I understand why they made it an incarnate reward, why they designed it as an incarnate reward from the start. |
Frankly, if I could make a level 1 character with that armour set, I plain wouldn't. Every single full set in the game looks absurd if used in whole. I'm not sure I'd even use any of the pieces. I don't have a concept that can use them. And unlike Matt Miller and (I presume) you, I don't believe that any costume which uses those pieces is automatically somehow better or more special than any other costume without the pieces. I'll admit, the Incarnate armour pieces are decent. But they're not God's gift to man and they don't enhance every character they're slapped on. They're just another costume set.
I'm sorry if this insults the art team, but the pieces are just another costume set - good if used right, terrible if used wrong. No more, no less.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And now you know why I insist on paying for all my costume pieces. Because if I don't, they'll stick them behind some asinine unlock. I would sooner pay for my cosmetic additions than have to unlock them in-game. I do not consider cosmetic items as something that should be gated, and I never will. I will always prefer to pay money for them than to grind to unlock them.
So when's that Rularuu Pack coming out? |
I also recall several threads where we told the devs how we'd be more than happy to pay for costume boosters because we weren't getting costumes fast enough by waiting for them to be included in the free issues.
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There are two ways to retain the specialty of the reward.|
Originally Posted by Organica
It's also kind of pointless to say, "As a reward for making it to level 50 and making to the incarnate levels, here's a cool new look" and then also offer the same thing to the level 1 guy who forked over $10. It's not much of a reward at that point.
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1. Make the costumes pieces unlockable for the entire account. That way when someone sees a level 1 with those pieces they know that the player has a 50 somewhere that went to all the trouble of unlocking it.
2. Make at least two types of every gated costume piece. At least 1 generic version that everyone has access to in the costume creator from scratch and at the fancy versions with all the bells and whistles which have to be unlocked.
Option two makes everyone happy. The people that have a concept they need a costume for are happy while they are working towards unlocking the fancy costume pieces, and the people that prefer gated costume pieces are happy because the fancy stuff is still gated.
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I concur. I also want to question Positron's belief that gating these pieces is anymore a disservice to their work than giving them out. Personally, I feel that we could appreciate the Ascension Armor a bit MORE if it was a bit more common.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm sorry if this insults the art team, but the pieces are just another costume set - good if used right, terrible if used wrong. No more, no less.
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Though in the end, I'll accept the level 50 gate, grudgingly so but accepted.
What really does bug me is the emotes and auras locked behind the Incarnate system because, as people have pointed out: "what's so 'incarnate' about about being able to actually get winded or fall over?"
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I should point out this is a revisit of a fundamental decision CoH made at the beginning of time that is fairly unique MMO-wise: non-functional costumes. Our costumes are so non-functional wings don't even mean we can fly. Powers and appearance are almost completely disconnected. The reason we have the freedom to look like whatever we want to look like far more than in any other MMO is actually *not* a function of our great and powerful costume creator. That's incidental. What is critically more important is that we can actually *pick* what we want to look like without power restrictions. I think that was the correct decision for a superhero game in a way that it might not be a good decision in say, a fantasy based MMO. Rift's functional costumes make as much sense in that game as CoH's non-functional ones do in ours.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The reward of making it to level 50 is having a character who's massively stronger than that of a level 1 guy who forked over $10. You can fight stronger things, you can take on tougher challenges, you can use more impressive powers and you can claim that you are "better" and be quantifiably, provably correct. There are enough real, functional rewards that show up when it really matters. I don't believe we need basic vanity added to this.
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The question then is to what degree should cosmetic options be gated behind something other than functionality. And that gets into the question of whether or not some subset of costumes or costume options should have any meaning at all. They don't usually have a functional one. But that doesn't preclude them from having an achievement-based one or some other kind of meaning.
I'm of the personal opinion that given the original decision for making costumes *mostly* non-functional, primary thematics should be generally available to everyone, and distinguished variations can be limited to some form of achievement. For example, if the magnetic aura was available to all, but you had to defeat Babbage to get a variant where clockwork parts circled around you (take notes, art team), I think that's acceptable.
Similarly, I don't mind ascendent armor being gated behind incarnate content specifically if it was explicitly designed to be thematically connected to incarnates, so long as alternate variations of similar thematic armor eventually was made available. Armor with coupled auras is really the technology I think should be made available to everyone. Ascendent armor specifically is something I'm willing to concede designer discretion to the devs.
My only aesthetic personal problem is this: I will give the devs the benefit of the doubt that the Ascendent armor is "Incarnate-like." But I don't see it. It looks like really cool Tron armor. But "Incarnates" and "Ascension" don't currently have visual touchstones to connect the Ascendent armor to. It doesn't visually say "Incarnate" because there's no visual style to being Incarnate. There are no incarnate enemies with a visual style. There's no Lair of the Incarnate with a certain visual look. There isn't even a connection between being Incarnate and armor at all.
Its this out-of-the-blue aspect of the armor that is the most disturbing to me, and I say that in the context of not being really bothered by any aspect of them except the current hypothetical prices. But something inside me says that armor is only "Incarnate armor" by fiat, and the players, with no touchstone to possibly make that conceptual connection, have some right to say "that's not incarnate armor, that's just really cool armor you're gating behind incarnates." Personally, I'm willing to go along with that because the lack of a visual incarnate theme is not the fault of the costume designers: its the overall fault of the design team in general that doesn't want to say "this is what incarnates are" but then says "but this is what they look like." But I cannot argue against the fact that while I would strongly support the devs' right to place thematic variations of cosmetic items that were gated behind thematically appropriate gates, I just don't get that strong sense here.
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The latter point you make is a rather interesting one, Arcanaville, I mean let's look at what all the Incarnates we've seen in game wear so far:
Statesman: Wears perhaps the most visually obvious superhero wear ever. The only thing that distinguishes him is how his cap sets over his shoulders and the faceplate. Otherwise, I've always felt that if you saw a picture of Statesman without any additional context, you would know he's a super hero, and he does it without wearing Incarnate armor.
Lord Recluse: He wears armor alright, but definitely nothing that screams "incarnate" instead it says "Spider-man, Evil Overlord."
Stheno: Also wears armor, golden armor in fact, but it feels ancient than ascendant, strangely regal than other-worldly.
Imperious: Roman armor, horns, Statesman's cape and mask... Yeah, honestly, Romulus looked more impressive.
Emperor Cole/Tyrant: none of what he wears looks like an Incarnate armor, if anything, his armor is still meant to be a more regal and imperial looking version of Statesman's. When he doesn't wear that, he looks like he's auditioning for The Candy Man Can.
Trapdoor: Yeah, nothing that looks very Incarnate about him when he's all in spandex, even moreso than States. Nope, nothing terrible "Incarnate" looking about him.
You: Yes, your characters that have reached Incarnate. No offense, but they probably don't look very Incarnate, or at least not the image of Incarnate they're trying to push in Ascension armor. Instead, much like all other Incarnates listed here thus far, you look like any normal character who's had a loving amount of attention paid to your character design.
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Hero 1: (Thanks to That Ninja) A lot like Statesman, he looks very typically superhero-ish, though more unique in that you'd think his helmet's visor would hint at him being a cyborg. (what? no one else thought that?)
My personally theory is that Cole made up the Incarnate Armor business make sure his IDF know who to shoot first.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Nope.
Don't forget Hero 1. I like the idea of cool armor that I don't have to drop 10 bucks to get, but the Ascension armor, while awesome, is a bit too armored sorcerer for me. I'll use it for some, but not many of my costumes. I hope the eventually add a unique helmet for Incarnates, because the most famous of the main incarnates have a cool helmet, like Statesman, Lord Recluse, and Hero 1.
Yes I would pay for an Incarnate pack. Yes, the pieces are a bit over the top, but I'll do like I always do and piece them out here and there amongst my various characters of appropriate level.
There is no costume set in this entire game that makes one person more special than another. Gating this content behind some TF or series of TFs will not change that, any more than gating the Roman pieces behind a successful ITF made them more "special." Fifty zillion people have access to the Roman armor, and you know what? I still like it just fine.
... I will admit, Arcanaville does bring up a pretty poignant ... uh, point. Lore wise, Incarnates were a special origin for superhero powers, until the new "Slow Path" came out. None of the "Fast Path" Incarnates have anything identifying them as Incarnates just by appearance.
I'll be honest--when I first heard about the Incarnate system I was confused and a little concerned. It sounded at first like they were throwing out the whole Origin system out the window by letting players become an Origin that was meant to be rare and special. Now that I've learned more about it that concern's been alleviated, even though "Slow Path" Incarnates don't seem anything like "Fast Path" Incarnates.
Then again, maybe that in itself justifies having special Incarnate costume parts like the Ancension stuff. People on the Slow Path are nothing like people on the Fast Path, and the powers and abilities they earn are also nothing alike, so why try comparing?
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Emperor Cole/Tyrant: none of what he wears looks like an Incarnate armor, if anything, his armor is still meant to be a more regal and imperial looking version of Statesman's. When he doesn't wear that, he looks like he's auditioning for The Candy Man Can.
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SOMEONE CALL STATESMAN'S VOICE ACTOR AND PAY HIM TO SING "THE CANDY MAN CAN."
EMPEROR COLE SELLING CANDIED ENRICHE. YES
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Ironically, gating the pieces at 50 and behind the merit unlocks pretty much guarantees that I'll never use them which seems more of a disservice to their creators than allowing me to use them at level one.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I concur. I also want to question Positron's belief that gating these pieces is anymore a disservice to their work than giving them out. Personally, I feel that we could appreciate the Ascension Armor a bit MORE if it was a bit more common.
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Which is what I pointed out when it was first announced. A few people will use the costume pieces...most people will not...you're going to get people standing around in Atlas park being show offs sure but when you're new, 50 seems like a long way off. |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Ironically, gating the pieces at 50 and behind the merit unlocks pretty much guarantees that I'll never use them which seems more of a disservice to their creators than allowing me to use them at level one.
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Surely you want people running around with these outfits in low level zones with low level characters purely on the fact that if a new player sees them in that outfit it'll be more of a bonus to them than just seeing it on a level 50.
For example my Archery/Energy blaster could really use the Ascension (no aura) shoulders and boots, it's WoWtastic armour and she's a night elf archer (don't ask, was a bet). However she can't use them because she is low level, not only does that not enthrall me with the costume piece but also I'll probably end up deleting the character.
I have ONE incarnate character and the Ascension armour doesn't fit her either, she already has an Incarnate costume. There are some characters it really fits like Bass_Ackwards Valkyrie character, it looks awesome on her:
Now I have none of my level 50's that can use it. They're all very much set in their identity and with that, their outfits.
So far, out of the endgame auras, I've found use for one, Slime, which will go with my Gelatinous cube in humanoid shape character really well. That's it.
I can afford that off the bat with the Empyrean merits I have saved up...and once again have no reason to run any of the trials, I'm not a big badge hunter so the new badges for the new trial aren't going to pull me in, I'm tier 4 on everything but the Destiny slot, I honestly have no reason beyond that one aura to run the trials.
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I would pay for a booster to unlock the items being added in Issue 20.5 In fact, I would pay for an account-wide unlock of the Roman Armor (from level 1) and for the holiday items, as well. I would also support making the Vanguard Booster available as a purchased item now that the loyalty event is over, for anyone that still wants it and somehow missed the opportunity.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
This include:
Ascension armor Ascension radiance armor Auras Chest emblems Trails auras Costume change emotes Emotes ( |
And just in case that's not clear enough: I will give Paragon Studios REAL MONEY for these costume parts, as long as I don't have to run the hateful Trials.
I think this thread and in game responses are pretty telling of a lot of peoples opinions on arbitrary gating.
And yes, it's MORE a disservice to the art team if no one ever wears the stuff because they cannot be bothered to grind themselves sick.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't actually mind that it's unlockable so much, myself, specifically because I'm a big fan of account-wide unlocks. I've been asking for this for years (even if I find the email-me tokens system to be ungainly and cumbersome). What I mind is that on top of an unlock, this also has a level gate. It's like being able to unlock auras at level 30 but only use them at level 40. Why? If it's a sense of achievement, then the achievement is already there - you unlocked the armour, and it's not exactly an easy thing to do. Why put it behind an unlock AND a level gate?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Similarly, I don't mind ascendent armor being gated behind incarnate content specifically if it was explicitly designed to be thematically connected to incarnates, so long as alternate variations of similar thematic armor eventually was made available. Armor with coupled auras is really the technology I think should be made available to everyone. Ascendent armor specifically is something I'm willing to concede designer discretion to the devs.
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My only aesthetic personal problem is this: I will give the devs the benefit of the doubt that the Ascendent armor is "Incarnate-like." But I don't see it. It looks like really cool Tron armor. But "Incarnates" and "Ascension" don't currently have visual touchstones to connect the Ascendent armor to. It doesn't visually say "Incarnate" because there's no visual style to being Incarnate. There are no incarnate enemies with a visual style. There's no Lair of the Incarnate with a certain visual look. There isn't even a connection between being Incarnate and armor at all. Its this out-of-the-blue aspect of the armor that is the most disturbing to me, and I say that in the context of not being really bothered by any aspect of them except the current hypothetical prices. But something inside me says that armor is only "Incarnate armor" by fiat, and the players, with no touchstone to possibly make that conceptual connection, have some right to say "that's not incarnate armor, that's just really cool armor you're gating behind incarnates." Personally, I'm willing to go along with that because the lack of a visual incarnate theme is not the fault of the costume designers: its the overall fault of the design team in general that doesn't want to say "this is what incarnates are" but then says "but this is what they look like." But I cannot argue against the fact that while I would strongly support the devs' right to place thematic variations of cosmetic items that were gated behind thematically appropriate gates, I just don't get that strong sense here. |
But the problem is exactly what you point out - "Incarnates" are entirely very abstract. We have no solid definitions of what their powers are, what their powers look like, what the origin of the Well is, what the Incarnates themselves look like and so on and so forth. Incarnates are about as strictly defined within the context of the game as super powers in general are. An Incarnate could be anyone. An Incarnate could have any kind of power. An Incarnate could look like anything he or she wants to. An Incarnate could draw on any origin, backstory or explanation he or she fancies. There is no one, single Incarnate aesthetic to which you can link a piece of costume and say "THIS is what Incarnates are like, so you have to be an Incarnate to look like THIS!" I'm really not sure it's a good idea to do so, either.
And so we're left with "THIS" - Lineage II armour with glowing auras on it. It's cool, certainly, I don't want to take that away from the development team. I have no complaints with the actual armour visuals. But it doesn't say "godlike" or "Incarnate" to me. It says "High Fantasy" and possibly "energy." So what more physical Incarnates, the ones who fight with swords, guns and rifles? Should they look like Thanos, too, when they may want to look like Megatron, instead? Or like Vilgax, maybe? But the Incarnate armour pieces? They look cool, but not godlike. Even if we go with literal gods, I would consider togas and greek armour to be more godlike, because that's what most gods in real religion are usually depicted as. Hell, Hequat - a literal goddess - walks around in a sash bikini, an awesome rasta crown and face paint.
We already HAVE an example of what gods are supposed to look like, and Arthas Sr. is not it. In fact, this take on Incarnates reminds me of Last Action Hero's take on Hamlet, in a sense, or Dragon Age 2's take on the original Dragon Age's take on the Witch of the Wilds (or whatever she was called) - it takes a concept that might have been much more subdued and turns it into something completely different and much more "edgy," both literally and figuratively.
I'm honestly not sure if THIS is what I want Incarnates to represent... In fact, I kind of sure this ISN'T what I want them to represent. And that's kind of my problem with the Ascension Armour - it's a very specific take on what Incarnates MIGHT look like that I don't find to be a good look to aspire to on the one hand, and isn't really based in anything at all, other than that power glows.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I actually remember Kheldians (back when anyone played those) doing that to new players. I've seen numerous instances of, say, a Bright Nova flying through City Hall and a newbie going "Oh my god! What was that? I want one!" Of course, when I explained that they had to get a character to 50, their disappointment was almost palpable, but the point remains - putting these things on low-level characters is a great sell for new players.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Surely you want people running around with these outfits in low level zones with low level characters purely on the fact that if a new player sees them in that outfit it'll be more of a bonus to them than just seeing it on a level 50.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I already replied in this thread, but both Sam and Arcanaville (two posters I have a lot of time for to read and consider because they both clearly think about what they're posting, even if I may disagree with what they're talking about) raise excellent points.
I utterly, utterly UTTERLY fail to understand how a suit of cosmetic armor (no matter how glowy and cool it might be) falls into a category of 'rare unlockables' along with costume parts, emotes, and auras.
Auras. I mean...the things we not only got for free at level 30 and bought in the Steampunk pack amongst others?
To quote a particular professional wrestler that I enjoy: Really? REALLY?
People running around in suits of armor that designate some sort of e-peen (I believe that's the correct term) and bragging about how many Trials they've done (and I'm still somewhat aghast at Positron at suggesting this is what you could do if you had this; 'hey look at me and my cool leet armor, I can has hardcore raiderz skill in yur base') belong in games where this matters.
Those armors have game-affecting stats, they improve performance in-game and they take a significant amount of time to collect as a set. I have done this myself in fantasy games, and I can attest to the level of achievement I felt when I did so. What I did not feel any sense of pride in was the completely disproportionate amount of time spent in comparison to reward gained.
Why would I feel that sense of achievement here where what I wear has been synonymous with having no bearing on my character's ability? It strikes me as something akin to high school mentality, where some people show off their shiny new toy and effectively rub it in the face of those around them. I have no problem with friendly competition, but any perception of some kind of social elitism is not something I currently nor I hope in the future associate with this game.
I would really genuinely want to have any Dev at the moment sit in front of me and try and justify this kind of gating of cosmetic content, because I would laugh in their face. Seriously. There is way more stick than carrot in this situation, and it's a form of incentivisation that almost smacks of desperation. As if these new things were the only things on offer to provide as incentive.
They're not, and that is because as I've already said they don't have a proportionate value to them in common with the activity, and it sets up a 'haves and haves not' mentality that is insulting to those who do not have the time, inclination or ability to do the same activity, when the rewards have been something prior to this point everyone was able achieve equally.
I await what thin justifications there are for this or a reconsideration of the position, because I feel this subject is not going away, no matter how much Positron and his dream project may want it.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
...Exactly how much grinding are we talking, here? Because I already feel that I am doing enough grinding unlocking these slots, in fact more than enough; and no one I have talked to in-game feels any differently.
I'd pay for a booster pack if it were available. At the same time, I have no problem with one single cool set of armor being gated by the Incarnate stuff. Even though I've played this game longer than any other mmo, I'm used to the idea of "higher levels get to look cooler", and so it doesn't bother me that incarnates get to show off their status with a special and very cool armor set. I know that CoH is mostly built around the idea that you can create your look at level one, but having a few costume options that you can't have at level 1 does not break the game, IMO.
Anyway it's kind of funny that you offer up a booster and people cry "why don't we get free stuff anymore?" and then you introduce a free (and gated) armor set and people want to pay for it.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid