Would you pay for an Incarnate booster pack? I would
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-31 16:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Most of those pieces are too bulky looking for normal sized characters and they gloves don't work with Monstrous Hands like many other pieces. More than likely I'll not be getting any of those pieces. So I could care less if they were made available via Money.
But in my opinion each piece should only be about 5 E-Merits. The Casual player would probably get frustrated with grinding out all those merits. Getting ready for work, working, and eating dinner, leaving a couple hours to play if that. Means 1-2 E Merits a day, and that is if he/she doesn't want to experience other content with their limited time.
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Doh! Of course, that's a good point that I should have been the first to point out considering how many times I've been burned: Cool, shiny new items only show up for the most basic costume slots most of the time. Remember how many times we had to ask before we got Animal Fur on boots without a heel? Notice how it still doesn't exist on Large or Banded boots? Consider this the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
Most of those pieces are too bulky looking for normal sized characters and they gloves don't work with Monstrous Hands like many other pieces. More than likely I'll not be getting any of those pieces. So I could care less if they were made available via Money.
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If I have Digitigrade legs, what Incarnate armour can I use? If I have Monstrous or Large hands, what kind of gloves can I use? If I have wings, how can I use the Incarnate cape? And a lot of my characters are like this. I have probably as many Monster Legs ones as I do human-leg ones, and I'm already running out of ways to not make them look so dang barefoot. Remember all those boots that Monstrous Legs have access to? ... Neither do I.
I actually kind of like the Ascension Armour pieces, especially the boots. But Ascension Armour is "A" set, not "THE" set. There are a lot of things it doesn't represent, a lot of character themes it doesn't look good on, a lot of current costumes that it just doesn't have pieces for and so on. This is where my explosive amazement originates when it comes to this set. Yes, it's a GOOD set. But it's not a SPECIAL UNIQUE set. It kind of looks like Valkyrie, in fact.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
People running around in suits of armor that designate some sort of e-peen (I believe that's the correct term)
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Why would I feel that sense of achievement here where what I wear has been synonymous with having no bearing on my character's ability?
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Inversely, I've never felt more shame or humiliation than when I'm forced to use an entire kit costume and end up running into someone else using the exact same costume. If someone else could have replicated what I made so precisely completely by accident, then it means I've failed in character design. I have no ill will towards people who pick a pre-made costume from the Sets dropdown and go with that. To each his own. But I have no sympathy for such a person asking to feel pride and accomplishment regarding his costume. If you didn't put in a single artistic thought in your design, you do not deserve to feel proud for it.
I'm going to scoff at every person I see wearing a full set of Ascension Armour, just the same way I scoff at any person who wears a full set of Enforcer armour or the entire Samurai set or the entire Organic Armour set and so forth. They don't deserve to be credited for that creation. They're simply using the work of professional artists without a single bit of input into the final costume. This is not praise-worth.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
There is way more stick than carrot in this situation, and it's a form of incentivisation that almost smacks of desperation.
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Though, to be fair, in the case if iTrals I can kind of see it. Since the entire system is based around multi-team raids, you NEED lots of interest for the system to work. It exists on a self-perpetuating circle of circumstances - people run trials so there are people to run trials with so people run trials so there are people to run trials with. Once that chain breaks, the Trials DIE, at least for the most part, and I can kind of excuse the developers for gedging their bets by goading all types of players through the system. I don't know if it will work and I know it's not working for me, but I can at least understand it in THIS case.
All that said, I still can't see emotes and auras as part of the Incarnate system. I'm willing to shut up and just accept the Ascension Armour pieces where they are the same way I accepted the Vanguard pieces (which is to say, by pretending they don't exist), but emotes and auras are just... Silly.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I agree with everything said in this post, and want to add to this last paragraph. I feel that Vanguard armor is a good example of appropriately thematic costume unlocks (I don't include the Weapons only because they are currently the only way to get "laser weapons". We need some basic laser swords and such available at level 1, like how we have energy shields at creation that serve the same thematic concepts but aren't as fancy as Vanguard shields) because Vanguard is presented as an actual group. They wear that armor. If you want to wear armor, you have many armor options at creation, so needing to unlock Vanguard armor only restricts you if your concept is specifically to be Vanguard (which I have sympathy for, but isn't something I feel I've addressed plenty of times and don't want to get into in this post). Incarnates, to date, are just "more powerful superheroes/supervillains" and as such, have never had a uniform. I doubt that now that these pieces are out, that they'll put them on Statesman, Lord Recluse, Tyrant, Trapdoor, Reichsman, or Hamidon (I'd love to see them try that one).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its this out-of-the-blue aspect of the armor that is the most disturbing to me, and I say that in the context of not being really bothered by any aspect of them except the current hypothetical prices. But something inside me says that armor is only "Incarnate armor" by fiat, and the players, with no touchstone to possibly make that conceptual connection, have some right to say "that's not incarnate armor, that's just really cool armor you're gating behind incarnates." Personally, I'm willing to go along with that because the lack of a visual incarnate theme is not the fault of the costume designers: its the overall fault of the design team in general that doesn't want to say "this is what incarnates are" but then says "but this is what they look like." But I cannot argue against the fact that while I would strongly support the devs' right to place thematic variations of cosmetic items that were gated behind thematically appropriate gates, I just don't get that strong sense here.
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Tell me if you feel that I'm being unfair here, Arcana, but I feel like the way this game has handled unlockable costume items wasn't really designed at all. Overall it feels like there is no set of design rules for costume unlocks, and that they are arbitrarily chosen (sometimes well, sometimes poorly). For some pieces, it's as if the developers said "hey, we need some more earnable rewards, what have you got/can you come up with, art team?", and it has been that way since the day they chose to gate capes at level 20 instead of giving out basic capes at level 1 and gating "fancy capes" at level 20. Prior to Incarnate-system gated music-themed chest emblems, the most obvious example of the arbitrary nature of unlockable costume items was the TF Commander epaulettes costume piece. In fact, it's pretty bizarre that spiked epaulettes are available at creation, but normal epaulettes are not.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I want to expand on something here - I firmly believe that City of Heroes isn't a place devoid of a sense of pride and achievement related to costumes. Hell, the game runs on it! However, here the sense of pride and achievement comes from what you are able to create, not from what you are given for killing 100 Kobolds.
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My sense of achievement comes from getting a tell that says "Awesome costume/character concept!" I got one from a GM the other day. It made me feel pretty good.
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I like the way you phrase it. And I've always felt the same way. Whenever costume items are picked as rewards for a system or a piece of content, it always feels like what gets put there is whatever happens to be rolling around the office at the time. For instance, we got wings shortly before the Inventions system, and when that came about, what inventable costume pieces did we get locked behind it? A bunch of new wings which were very likely being developed as early as the launch of veteran rewards. And when veteran rewards rolled about, what did they get? Wings and trenchcoats. Why? Well, we'd been asking for them and they wanted to put at least some costume items behind it and they had wings available at the time, so... Wings!|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Tell me if you feel that I'm being unfair here, Arcana, but I feel like the way this game has handled unlockable costume items wasn't really designed at all. Overall it feels like there is no set of design rules for costume unlocks, and that they are arbitrarily chosen (sometimes well, sometimes poorly). For some pieces, it's as if the developers said "hey, we need some more earnable rewards, what have you got/can you come up with, art team?", and it has been that way since the day they chose to gate capes at level 20 instead of giving out basic capes at level 1 and gating "fancy capes" at level 20. Prior to Incarnate-system gated music-themed chest emblems, the most obvious example of the arbitrary nature of unlockable costume items was the TF Commander epaulettes costume piece. In fact, it's pretty bizarre that spiked epaulettes are available at creation, but normal epaulettes are not.
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I actually CAN somewhat agree with Vanguard gear (weapons notwithstanding) requiring participation with Vanguard to unlock. It's the armour they wear, and that armour is not the representation of any basic concept. It's "still more tech armour," only it's what Vanguard soldiers wear. However, I firmly believe that the Vanguard armour unlocks should have been global, and they'd have hurt a LOT less if they were. Hell, the Incarnate global unlocks would hurt a lot less if they weren't multi-team-content locked, but that's besides the point.
Really, this "kitchen sink" approach to costume unlocks is getting a little absurd.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
My sense of achievement comes from getting a tell that says "Awesome costume/character concept!" I got one from a GM the other day. It made me feel pretty good.
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The "unique snowflake" argument applies here. You don't make players feel "unique" by giving them the same one best look that everyone else will be sporting. You make players feel unique by giving them the tools to create something uniquely their own. And, really, one look at the Best Costume Designs thread reveals that everyone can do it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam,
I just wanted to reply back and expand what I said originally. My point was that I never felt that City of Heroes' costume system had no bearing of achievement on my abilities, very unlike a fantasy game where said costume piece may offer an in-game boost to a stat or somesuch. Our Enhancements are nicely tucked under the hood and we are free to tinker with them how we wish.
I definitely feel a sense of achievement with the costumes I make, and I take pride in coming up with concepts and combinations that help that come to life. I can even say some of the Ascension pieces would work very well in regular 'power armor' sets and would like to try them out. But I wouldn't feel any sense of achievement in just owning the pieces. I'm a grownup, I don't have the immature need to assuage my own ego by denigrating the efforts of others and playing up my own.
That is something I frankly feel fantasy games and any game that promotes status symbol items through in-game effort is wrong. Flat out. We're not in high school anymore. Stop treating us like we are.
I also have to say that I don't understand the Devs' reasoning in this case. I used the term carrot and stick for a reason, because if you put effort into making your carrot look like the most desirable thing you could want, you don't need a big stick. You don't make the Trials attractive by gating cosmetic items that the majority of players in this game don't consider as achievement rewards. You offer them some cool temp power or something that provides tangible benefit to the character, that makes them think 'oh yeah...that could be pretty useful to do that next TF' or something.
The activity and the reward are disconnective. You can't sell Trials on that basis, at least I believe so anyways. Any player can and should have access to emotes, costume parts and all of that stuff by whatever means best suits them.
S.
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I think you and I agree on a fundamental level, and this is perhaps the best, shortest explanation as to exactly WHERE we agree the most. When it comes to visuals, I've always felt that artistic creativity should be left as its own reward. Unlike the same "status symbol" that everybody else has, a creative, GOOD costume is a real achievement that deserves the kind of praise good costumes usually receive. But simply using a rare piece does not make a costume better unless the resulting costume is good in itself, and you don't need rare pieces to do that.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
That is something I frankly feel fantasy games and any game that promotes status symbol items through in-game effort is wrong. Flat out. We're not in high school anymore. Stop treating us like we are.
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If we need "status symbols" of any kind, I want those to be practical, in the form of powers, abilities and privileges. City of Heroes made the right call by completely segregating the artistic process of playing with visuals from the meta-game process of gameplay, and I'd rather not mix the two after the fact.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Three hours (+ setup/wait time) a day for 12 days sounds like a lot to me.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
not as bad as it was.
However you're looking at, I believe 36 trials to afford everything with Empyrean merits. If you run 3 trials a day, it's 12 days, so make sure that you succeed in all three trials since one failure of any of the trials (likely with the new anti-matter one for the first couple of weeks) will set you back an additional day. |
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Except for capes, auras, Roman armor, the witch hat, unlockable wepaons and so on |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes made the right call by completely segregating the artistic process of playing with visuals from the meta-game process of gameplay, and I'd rather not mix the two after the fact.
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I believe the title should be inferred to include "...and would you have a problem if the option to pay for it existed?" It's not in the title, the OP probably didn't mean to ask that, but it's an intrinsic part of the question.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Re: The thread title.
i wouldn't. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I personally probably wouldn't pay for it, but I can see the appeal.
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I think the design brief was meant to key off the most elaborate of the borders that the various incarnate powers have as those, and the stylised fountainhead seen on the Notice of the Well and other Well-related items, are the closest we have to a visual theme for Incarnate matters.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My only aesthetic personal problem is this: I will give the devs the benefit of the doubt that the Ascendent armor is "Incarnate-like." But I don't see it.
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$5.
I'd pay $9.99 for an Accolade pack that was global and functioned only in Arena or PvP zones though.
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Actually, those have also been brought up. The ultimate difference is that you only need to run two missions for a cape, one for auras, a TF for the hat, armor, and a lot of people DO have problems with locked weapons.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Except for capes, auras, Roman armor, the witch hat, unlockable wepaons and so on
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Now the new Incarnate store stuff takes it all to a ridiculous level of needing to grind multiple days for more time it would take than to even just unlock the epaulets and for what? The Costume sets might be understandable, but to unlock a musical note chest insignia or the ability to get winded? That's just sad. Also seems not incarnate related, at least not incarnate related in the way devs have been trying to push Incarnates.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Given the option, I would rather pay a couple bucks if I wanted it, than have to grind the same tedious 2 or 3 missions for months.
But I don't like grinding or teaming, so maybe they don't want my kind around here.
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I'd say there's something profoundly wrong with the whole system once players start feeling unwanted.
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Originally Posted by bromley
But I don't like grinding or teaming, so maybe they don't want my kind around here.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I wouldnt pay for an incarnate booster pack.
Reason: I find the trials we have fun and social events in which i have made many new friends while running them.
Regarding the costs of the new unlockables. Sure if you dont like trials i can see why your being so vocal about the whole situation, however for me as a trialist i honestly feel the prices are almost about right. I do think these pieces should be gated off and correct me if im wrong but dont they become unlocked account wide once unlocked/purchased?
That to me makes the whole cost/"grindy" nature of it worth while and myself and many people are already looking forward to flying around in our new incarnate armour and auras.
How would anybody in here do the actual incarnate armour?
- Character Unlocked after completion of a trial
- Character Unlocked after completion of the alpha arc unlock
- Current system we have on beta but at a cheaper rate
- As a recipe drop from only incarnate trial enemies [however they can be sold on WW]
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Here's a thought.
The Dev's would never release the Incarnate goodies in a booster because it's their incentive for us stalwarts to get into the endgame and they want it to be hard to attain by default, so you spend longer trying to get said rewards and thus are an able body ready for the trial for all the others out there still chugging along.
So they wouldn't let us pay for it outright because it would defeat the very purpose it was designed for. If we can simply lay down 10 bucks and be done with it.
So...
What if they did release an Incarnate booster that inlcuded the armor and aura's but charged $60.00 for it?
That way they wouldn't be giving it away, most people would look at that price and laugh before running a few more trials, but it would give the option for those diehards that really want the stuff without the hassle or simply don't have a 50.
More money is more money.
Would those in this thread that want a booster be for it if the price was something astronomical? Because that's what they're wanting it to represent both in look and time spent in game.
Just a thought.
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I think you're missing the point - the new rewards are more of a bonus rather than a goal - you'll unlock them as you do the main Incarnate content of unlocking new slots and powers.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Now the new Incarnate store stuff takes it all to a ridiculous level of needing to grind multiple days for more time it would take than to even just unlock the epaulets
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It's like going for Task Force Commander - your goal is the accolade boost, but you're still going to get merits as you do it - just like running Trials to get the slots and powers - you'll still get lots of merits as you do it.
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Except that you'll probably be using your merits from unlocking the tiers to actually build the powers you slot into those tiers. The armor/emotes/auras are a separate grind to undertake after you've done the actual business of unlocking/building/slotting your powers.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think you're missing the point - the new rewards are more of a bonus rather than a goal - you'll unlock them as you do the main Incarnate content of unlocking new slots and powers.
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Task Force Commander doesn't compare. That's a gimme that costs you nothing except to run the entire group of task forces. A fair comparison would be to say you have to run Posi through Numina and then spend 300 of the merits you earned to buy the Commander accolade. And another 300 merits if you want the costume epaulets.
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Wow, I'm getting a lot of very interesting sentiments from this thread, and I'm glad someone else is there to say them so I don't have to pick up all the flak by myself |
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
The Dev's would never release the Incarnate goodies in a booster because it's their incentive for us stalwarts to get into the endgame and they want it to be hard to attain by default, so you spend longer trying to get said rewards and thus are an able body ready for the trial for all the others out there still chugging along.
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But, yes, in a nutshell, that is my impression of the Incarnate armour pieces - to bribe those of us who don't want endgame into serving as warm bodies for others who do like end game with rewards that have nothing at all to do with endgame but that we like for various other reasons. This is the same "unclean" feeling I get from people making the argument that PvE accolade badges and powers necessitating PvP was a way to get more unwilling warm bodies for the PvPers to gank, kicking and screaming, so that they had greater population density.I still remember the furore that took place when I think it was Lighthouse commented in response to the violent dislike PvPers had to the I13 changes, saying that "They're not aimed at you." Pruportedly, the aim of the I13 changes was to make PvP more accessible to non-PvPers as opposed to, you know, throwing them to the wolves to serve as meat on the table. But you can bet your third nipple that the actual PvPers at the time did not take the notion of having their entire combat system yanked from under them in a change not aimed at them rather badly. And having seen the fallout from that - PvPers left, PvEers still don't give a crap about PvP - I can't say they were unjustified in feeling as they did.
I've always been a strong believe in the saying "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." I honestly don't get why the development team continuously goes off charging after birds in the bush, leaving us with pieces of greater projects, like bases, PvP, items of power, the Architect and so on. What is the draw in changes which can potentially alienate a large section of your player base for CHANCE to make that up with either new customers or resubs? I honestly don't get it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That almost sounds like some kind of long-term goal as part of an endgame system.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
A fair comparison would be to say you have to run Posi through Numina and then spend 300 of the merits you earned to buy the Commander accolade. And another 300 merits if you want the costume epaulets.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And it also sounds nothing like the way Task Force Commander actually works in the game. Funny, that.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That almost sounds like some kind of long-term goal as part of an endgame system.
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Once we start to break it down in these terms, it makes playing the game at all sound like either a waste of money or a waste of time. |
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Here's a thought.
The Dev's would never release the Incarnate goodies in a booster because it's their incentive for us stalwarts to get into the endgame and they want it to be hard to attain by default, so you spend longer trying to get said rewards and thus are an able body ready for the trial for all the others out there still chugging along. So they wouldn't let us pay for it outright because it would defeat the very purpose it was designed for. If we can simply lay down 10 bucks and be done with it. So... What if they did release an Incarnate booster that inlcuded the armor and aura's but charged $60.00 for it? That way they wouldn't be giving it away, most people would look at that price and laugh before running a few more trials, but it would give the option for those diehards that really want the stuff without the hassle or simply don't have a 50. More money is more money. Would those in this thread that want a booster be for it if the price was something astronomical? Because that's what they're wanting it to represent both in look and time spent in game. Just a thought. |
The only reason to pay for something you could spend time slowly accumulating is because value your time more than your money. If you are not having fun and are paying for the privilege, you should stop paying and play something else.
IF that is the case. For me, this might be the case. I'll see, but this debate has brought this into perspective a little bit. I've gone from liking this game out of habit because I like to play it, and breaking my play time in half from what I like to play to trying to get on an iTrial to stand around and hope not to get kicked or not to crash because I want to progress my favorite character.
I'm not threatening to quit, no one would miss me. But the more I think about it, the less I'm stoked I just bought that booster pack.
not as bad as it was.
However you're looking at, I believe 36 trials to afford everything with Empyrean merits.
If you run 3 trials a day, it's 12 days, so make sure that you succeed in all three trials since one failure of any of the trials (likely with the new anti-matter one for the first couple of weeks) will set you back an additional day.
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