Is Issue 20 the most hyped issue ever?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-04-02 06:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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After a (temporary) decision that they were going to be Italian. We've been over this, but I'm not sure reiterating is going to get us anywhere.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
You'll also note that many issues later, the 5th is back with REICHSman as their leader.
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The 5th Column are not Nazis.
Prove it.
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So from this first post...i take it a good issue only counts when it has the above?
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
As of right now, no new costume pieces, no power proliferation, no power/epic pool/ custimization, etc.
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They are |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
The 5th Column are not Nazis.
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This is getting as silly as the desperate "maybe Tyrant isn't the bad guy?" stuff we were getting from the stiff-armers as more and more GR info came out
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Well, in Guy's defense we do have a shred of evidence to support his claim, namely that requiem was considered a lap dog to Benito Mussolini than say, Hitler, or even 'Da Furher' or a (slightly) more obscure Nazi higher up like Heinrich Himmler who would have slipped passed the profanity filter.
And while lacking any ability to cite any official source, I heard one reason for the Fifth Column change/Retcon was because the original concept of City of villains would have involved you starting out as part of a villain group of your choice, and they were thus removed due to the unfortunate implications of PCs able to become, literal, neo-nazis. Ultimately though, that was scrapped and the Council appeared out of nowhere for pretty much no reason other than to give kheldians default nemesis group.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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hype is a funny thing. there is actual hype, the kind that marketing pushes, and there is player generated hype, the kind of uncontrolled echo chamber of madness that comes from when players who really don't know a lot about the limitations of gaming programming decide to go past reality and make crazy promises on the parts of the developers. so was there hype before i20, yeah there was, but i dont recall seeing a huge marketing push in response to issue 20, there was only a push of somewhat unrealistic expectations from the players. and that, as well as the painfully dull threads with the title "am i the only one who doesn't like <feature>" because cogent discussion always begins with passive-aggressive well-poisoning, are inevitable with any issue.
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Then why is they first showed up during WWII and attacked Paragon City on the orders of the Germans?|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
The 5th Column are not Nazis.
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No, the game never uses the word "Nazi." They're different enough from actual historical Nazis so you can have all the fun of beating them up, but none of the controversy of having real Nazis in the game. They are also, as far as I know, never presented as having a racist agenda, just a world domination one. But do you really need it spelled out for you? A German villain group that formed during WWII and fought for the Axis...what else are they?
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Azure's right. Manticore stated that the only reason the Fifth were removed was so players couldn't be Nazis in the original concept of City of Villains. And according to CoH novels, they were assembled by Hitler as a covert super team. They were originally sent to the US in 1939 to spy on and sabotage ships. They might not be Nazis in their present incarnation, as they might have new views in terms of political structure and what not, but they definitely have Nazi roots.
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Pretty much, yeah. I mean, I'm not going to make a thread complaining about me not getting what I want, but customization/proliferation is way more important to me. There's still so many arcs on both sides I haven't even played yet and still a few TF/SF I haven't bothered doing yet. Adding more content that I won't get around to doing for another 4-5 months from now isn't as important as, say, finally rolling the Ice Stalker I've been wanting to forever.
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Originally Posted by HardRider
So from this first post...i take it a good issue only counts when it has the above?
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Pfffft |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
After a (temporary) decision that they were going to be Italian. We've been over this, but I'm not sure reiterating is going to get us anywhere.
The 5th Column are not Nazis. |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh my...oh that's priceless.
The guys who willing follow the superman from Axis America aren't Nazis.
Ohhh ohh man.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Pretty much, yeah. I mean, I'm not going to make a thread complaining about me not getting what I want, but customization/proliferation is way more important to me. There's still so many arcs on both sides I haven't even played yet and still a few TF/SF I haven't bothered doing yet. Adding more content that I won't get around to doing for another 4-5 months from now isn't as important as, say, finally rolling the Ice Stalker I've been wanting to forever.
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Makes sense..after all i've been waiting for ice A brutes for ages.
The 5th Column has always been a group that came to the US from Germany controlled by Hitler.
If they're not 'Nazis', then words no longer have meaning and fish fish fish fish.
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From the original instruction manual:|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Incidentally, there's a brief article on the wiki, regrettably without sources, touching on tidbits of information in regards to the 5th Column retcon.
Among them is the statement that the devs at one point planned to specify the 5th Column as Italian rather than German. It's a bit farfetched that they would consider revising their intellectual property unless legal issues got in the way. |
During WWII, the feared Nazi 5th Column forces conducted covert military operations within the borders of the U.S. itself. A few years later, a new 5th Column appeared, conducting a wide variety of criminal activites. Whatever historical relationship between the old 5th Column and the new, they share the same abhorrent philosophy.
So they originated from Nazis and share the same philosophy as Nazis but they're not actually Nazis and the devs always intended for them to be Italian?
Yeah... not buying it.
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Uh, completely rewriting all the text in game, including the historical plaques scattered around the city, to remove every single reference to a villain group, often replacing them with a vague reference to an unnamed enemy group, is "storyline development"? Really? While the Devs did some time later say that the total removal of all references to the 5th Column everywhere in the game was the result of an overzealous intern or something, i would still say that retcon (retroactive continuity aka rewriting the past) describes what happened far better than "storyline development".|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Devs denied it had anything to do with the German law. And that's not a retcon, that's storyline development.
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Yeah, that's all in the past now, but to me someone trying to claim rewriting the game's text to expunge all mention of an enemy group is storyline development is someone who is living in a river in Egypt.
Dr. Todt's theme.
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Theoretically this issue has 2 new trials, 2 new task forces, and 144 new powers.
Although being the person I am, I'd trade all that for some free costumes.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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While the 5th Column certainly started out as a Nazi unit, they seem more like general, world-domination seeking fascists now.
For example, unless something really whack is going on, then they must be recruiting non-German members these days, much like the Council. There also seems to be a lack of the anti-semetic streak the Nazi party fostered, albeit replaced with an 'everyone else is dirt beneath our boots' attitude.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I know lets kill everyone that promotes politcal correctness! Then this wont be an issue!
Alltho it may not be stated nowdays that they are Nazis, YOU the player are clearly expected to, forum your own conclusion. Because we now live in a wold where people are afread to speak their minds, companys have to imply what they are without stating the fact.
The game may not say Nazi, but we know that they are in fact Nazis. We know this thanks to the context that they are portrayed in and our knowledge of history.
Just because the devs 'can't' say Nazi for whatever bull**** reason their useing these days, does NOT mean that you should take everything at face value. By useing your head for more than a hat rack and looking at the information presented in game you can make an intelligent guess at what the 5th column are...
NAZIS.
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Not really. I personally think it's hilarious how worked up people get up about it. Honestly; who the hell cares? Nazi's or facist extremists or whatever. I presented my examples of why I think they've moved further from the views of the old Reich, I'm sure not going to tell anyone else their views are wrong (unless they are patentedly stupid of course)
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Because we now live in a wold where people are afread to speak their minds-
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Coming from the guy repeating "Not Nazis" to himself over and over and over, I'll have to take your word on it |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
There also seems to be a lack of the anti-semetic streak the Nazi party fostered
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I seem to recall the 5th Column being mentioned on the plaque under Atlas' statue. Or am I hallucinating that?
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Uh, completely rewriting all the text in game, including the historical plaques scattered around the city, to remove every single reference to a villain group, often replacing them with a vague reference to an unnamed enemy group, is "storyline development"? Really? While the Devs did some time later say that the total removal of all references to the 5th Column everywhere in the game was the result of an overzealous intern or something, i would still say that retcon (retroactive continuity aka rewriting the past) describes what happened far better than "storyline development".
Yeah, that's all in the past now, but to me someone trying to claim rewriting the game's text to expunge all mention of an enemy group is storyline development is someone who is living in a river in Egypt. |
How can issue 20 possibly be more hyped than Issue 18/Going Rogue was ????
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You also see the 5th Column in the streets now.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I seem to recall the 5th Column being mentioned on the plaque under Atlas' statue. Or am I hallucinating that?
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References to the 5th Column were gradually added back to the game, and you probably don't remember that for a while there were no references at all to the 5th Column to be found anywhere on the game. As i recall they were even removed from the list of villain groups on the main website as well.
They were effectively retconned back into the game just as they were retconned out for a while. Which admittedly is very true to the meta-narrative of a superhero game.
Incidentally, the post you just quoted even mentions that the 5th Column was added back into the game. You must be hard of thinking if you can't comprehend that if the Devs could completely remove a group from the game they could also add them back into it later. However, putting the 5th Column back into the game's lore didn't happen all at once. IIRC there was a period of about a year after the initial removal where there was not a single reference to the group by name in the game.
Now, about the i20 hype...
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Well... yes. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not really. I personally think it's hilarious how worked up people get up about it. Honestly; who the hell cares? Nazi's or facist extremists or whatever. I presented my examples of why I think they've moved further from the views of the old Reich, I'm sure not going to tell anyone else their views are wrong (unless they are patentedly stupid of course)
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However.
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Maybe if you tried opening up a book (or even a web search) and read just exactly what Nazis actually did....you may get a clue |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not really. I personally think it's hilarious how worked up people get up about it. Honestly; who the hell cares? Nazi's or facist extremists or whatever. I presented my examples of why I think they've moved further from the views of the old Reich, I'm sure not going to tell anyone else their views are wrong (unless they are patentedly stupid of course)
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The dev's could let their imagination run wild but, instead, use these clowns that look like Nazis. I really don't care what the actual canon says...they resemble nazis far too closely. All I can say is let that whole faction fade away and stop adding stuff relating to the 5th et al. Enough already.
Something about the 5th Column really spooked the devs so bad they gutted it completely. And not long after, CoH was released in Germany.
Yes, I know Reich is German for Empire, but after the 3rd Reich, it's a little hard to disassociate it with Naziism in the modern day.