Is Issue 20 the most hyped issue ever?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-04-02 06:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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On the live chat the other day, they mentioned that they'd like to carry on the 5th Column storyline |
Originally Posted by TheJazMan
The dev's could let their imagination run wild but, instead, use these clowns that look like Nazis. I really don't care what the actual canon says...they resemble nazis far too closely. All I can say is let that whole faction fade away and stop adding stuff relating to the 5th et al. Enough already.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They were. Then the cut-and-paste of doom happened and all references to them were gone. The Council came in and took over from the... what? Council?!|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I seem to recall the 5th Column being mentioned on the plaque under Atlas' statue. Or am I hallucinating that?
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The timeline has been restored:
1. Nazi WWII 5th Column came to the U.S.
2. Nazi WWII 5th Column went underground after WWII.Quote:
As the 1st Hero Brigade gathered for its send off in Liberty Plaza, the ground shook with a tremendous roar and a preternatural blackness blocked out the sun. Up from beneath he city streets came Nazi Super soldiers wearing the red and black uniforms that would soon become feared up and down the Eastern seaboard: the Fifth Column had made itself known. The Nazi troops had been in hiding ever since the December 7th attacks, waiting for a chance to strike again. This time, the villains did not have so easy a time. The fighting First Brigade rose to the occasion and won the first of many epic battles against Nazi forces both at home and abroad. Beaten but not defeated, the Fifth Column fled back into hiding, only to return time and again over the next four years. As for the 1St Hero Brigade, they shipped off to Europe to take the fight straight to the enemy.
3. A successor group with THE SAME NAME and the SAME ABHORRENT PHILOSOPHY (<Church Lady>hmmm.. wonder what that might be... what abhorrent philosophy could these so called ' ' 5th Council ' ' be harboring... could it be... I don't know.... NAZISM??!!!</Church Lady>) reappears in Paragon in modern times.Quote:
Just as victory over the Axis powers seemed assured, disaster struck at home. While heroes on the home front bravely fought against the nearly defeated Fifth Column, another, more terrifying threat was sinking its tendrils into the American Dream. The super villain known as Nemesis... Although Nemesis lost, he had done great damage and, more significantly, ushered in a new era for super powered heroes the world over and in Paragon City particularly. With the defeat of the Axis powers, the disappearance of the Fifth Column, and the crippling blows organized crime had received before the war, Paragon City had suddenly become a remarkably safe place to live.
4. The Kheldian backed Council, another *fascist* WWII era group, but only based in Italy, not Germany, take over the 5th. Note the ' ' take over ' ' part and not ' ' replace ' '.
5. Some of the 5th Column pull a 5th Column on The Council and operate within The Council biding time until...
6. The 5th Column come back, under Reichsman, who is a... wait for it.... **NAZI!!**.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
How can issue 20 possibly be more hyped than Issue 18/Going Rogue was ????
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Well, every time I've read the plaque, it reads 5th Column, so....
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
They were. Then the cut-and-paste of doom happened and all references to them were gone.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Reichsman, who is a... wait for it.... **NAZI!!**.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It got better.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Well, every time I've read the plaque, it reads 5th Column, so....
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On Test, the Ubelmann arc was changed to this. After a massive hue and cry on the forums, it and much of the rest of the retcon were rolled back to forms that can still be seen in places in-game. (Did they ever fix the Atlas Park GIFT guy who says Atlas died in the 50s?)| Well, every time I've read the plaque, it reads 5th Column, so.... |
Why it was done (and now mostly undone) is open to speculation, but it wasn't a "storyline development". It was a retcon.
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Plus, who doesn't like beating up nazi's?
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Guy Perfect for some reason....DUN DUN DUUUUN
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Plus, who doesn't like beating up nazi's?
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Well it's not a very good retcon if most of it didn't actually go through.
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Originally Posted by Venture
On Test, the Ubelmann arc was changed to this. After a massive hue and cry on the forums, it and much of the rest of the retcon were rolled back to forms that can still be seen in places in-game. (Did they ever fix the Atlas Park GIFT guy who says Atlas died in the 50s?)
Why it was done (and now mostly undone) is open to speculation, but it wasn't a "storyline development". It was a retcon. |
If I'm remembering my Co* history (beyond the out of game politics/rumors) I always had the understanding that the Council was based off the Italian Facist allied arm of the 5th Column, and that they had their own little civil war and broke away in I-3, chasing off the loyalists to the German 5th into hiding until they returned again in more recent issues (started playing in I-2 so I remember them fighting in the streets, and the big changeover). That's why many (though not all) of the Council names sound more Italian (at least to me). Both were 'Axis' powers, so it's not unreasonable to assume the underground movement didn't involve both parties.
The 5th and the Council are as much the Nazis and Facists that progenerated them than is say, Hydra and A.I.M. from the MARVEL universe (which was originally a Nazi subversive group from WWII- A.I.M. breaking off from Hydra years later; I'm not even getting into Leviathan and the other groups going on). They've adapted and changed. The ones that answered to their fallen leaders gained autonomy and started running things the way they saw it, and so on. In that respect I see them as no different. In fact, strikingly similar.
As to the original topic, I don't think I-20 is horribly overhyped. I think a lot more information has been made public much earlier than in many other issues, giving folks more time to talk about it, so I could see why one might have that perception though.
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I couldn't agree more.
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There are no references to Hitler, Nazism, or the 5th Column in the CoH novels. There are a few oblique references to Italian Fascism in the first of the two novels.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
And according to CoH novels, they were assembled by Hitler as a covert super team. They were originally sent to the US in 1939 to spy on and sabotage ships. They might not be Nazis in their present incarnation, as they might have new views in terms of political structure and what not, but they definitely have Nazi roots.
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The leaders of both the Council and the 5th are of Italian origin, however. Regardless of whatever national loyalty the organizations may have originally had, they're now aligned primarily to being the personal armies of the Center and Requiem, respectively. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
If I'm remembering my Co* history (beyond the out of game politics/rumors) I always had the understanding that the Council was based off the Italian Facist allied arm of the 5th Column, and that they had their own little civil war and broke away in I-3, chasing off the loyalists to the German 5th into hiding until they returned again in more recent issues (started playing in I-2 so I remember them fighting in the streets, and the big changeover). That's why many (though not all) of the Council names sound more Italian (at least to me). Both were 'Axis' powers, so it's not unreasonable to assume the underground movement didn't involve both parties.
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The 5th Column was always sort of a branch of the Council, but mostly autonomous under Requiem. Then the Center decided Requiem was a putz and reabsorbed the 5th entirely. Think of it as corporate coming over to oversee a failing franchise store.
Yes, both groups like to try to subvert the other with double and triple agents.
But the new 5th Column leader is Reichsman who is not Italian, but Amerikan.
See 5th Column S/TFs.
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But if we ignore Reichsman, maybe he'll go away.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But the new 5th Column leader is Reichsman who is not Italian, but Amerikan
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It does make me wonder what happened to Requiem though since the Council is lead by the Center and the resurgent 5th Column, bolstered by Axis Amerika troops, is lead by Reichsman.
Did they ever answer the question of what happened to Requiem?
I vaguely recall some fluff ages ago that had Positron arrest Requiem (bugger me if I can remember where I saw that though).
Perhaps we'll see a 3 way split, Requiem leading the Nictus based troops in his own faction with the 5th Column and Reichsman going more along the lines of 'those wacky Nazis' super tech (so they get the Vampyri, War Wolves and given Jetpack troopers etc.) and the Council going more along the lines of developing the Super Soldier Serum type deal with more super powered metahumans in the ranks.
Well...I can dream can't I?
Isn't Requiem still hiding in the past ready to lead a 5th Column rebellion from within the Council with.... GIANT ROBOTS!!!!!... hmm?
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Yeah I thought that was previously in the timeline though, before Reichsman got introduced.
Since upon his defeat he time teleports to wherever the hell he teleports to...that isn't made clear.
Plus I find it hard to imagine the following conversation going on between a 5th Column trooper and Requiem.
"Erm..hey boss...you know the guys we left back in Paragon while we did our time travelling schenanigans?"
"Yes, what about them?"
"Well it appears a Nazi version of Statesman has escaped containment thanks to some villains (since in the Barracuda SF you let him out, the Khan TF deals with the fallout from the Barracuda SF) and is now leading them...you know...taking your job."
"Eh...I'm quite happy to sit here and let that happen as long as I've got my awesome Roman villa near the sea and my two non-functional giant robots that we need to kidnap an Incarnate to power..."
"Well you know regular heroes can become Incarnates now."
"Well that just makes my job that little bit easier, we'll wait for them to come to us."
I think Requiem just leads the 5th when Reich isn't around. Which is most of the time.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Just thought of something. I hope new future Lore pets are 5th Column so that I can have....
GIANT GHOST ROBOTS!!!!
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he could always recruit Burkholder back to his side.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
"Eh...I'm quite happy to sit here and let that happen as long as I've got my awesome Roman villa near the sea and my two non-functional giant robots that we need to kidnap an Incarnate to power..."
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"So, what's the Center paying you these days anyway?"
"Oh, he's giving me everything I need to build a giant robot."
"Giant robot hmm? Well I'll double it!"
"Deal!"
And then years later the Center recruits Burkholder back with a similar deal, and that's why there are four destroyed Mega Mechs on the ruined Atlas Park map.
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actually...
I kind of would like 5th column robot lore pets.
I have always wanted the 5th Column robots as options for Robots MMs when they finally get Pet Customisation.
Plus it would match the little 5th Column mekman non-combat pet.
I'd call him Heinrich and pretend that he constantly complains about being reprogrammed by a decidedly non-nazi mad scientist.
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I love the idea of the Center and Requiem standing equal distance apart with Burkholder in the middle and them yelling like he was a puppy and each of them wanted to prove that Burkholder like them more.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
he could always recruit Burkholder back to his side.
"So, what's the Center paying you these days anyway?" "Oh, he's giving me everything I need to build a giant robot." "Giant robot hmm? Well I'll double it!" "Deal!" And then years later the Center recruits Burkholder back with a similar deal, and that's why there are four destroyed Mega Mechs on the ruined Atlas Park map. |
"I'll give you the resources to make a Giant Robot!"
"I'll give you two!"
"Four!"
"Twelve!"
"Alright he wins, I mean I don't think even Nemesis has the funds to make twelve giant robots."
"See Burkholder likes me more!"
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Don't forget that Ernesto Hess is actually an Arachnos agent.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
he could always recruit Burkholder back to his side.
"So, what's the Center paying you these days anyway?" "Oh, he's giving me everything I need to build a giant robot." "Giant robot hmm? Well I'll double it!" "Deal!" And then years later the Center recruits Burkholder back with a similar deal, and that's why there are four destroyed Mega Mechs on the ruined Atlas Park map. |
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I've been doing a lot of reading as I've been working on copy editing the in-game timeline on the wiki, and things are a lot more tied up than it seems.
Arachnos is founded in the early 1900s.
Ridolfo Uzzano becomes Requiem in 1922, and at that point is working for the fascist Italian government.
Also in 1922 in Italy, The Center and Arakhn meet.
The Council splits off from Arachnos sometime in the 1940s.
The 5th Column, at this point a unit of the Nazi army, attacks Paragon City in 1941.
After the Nazis are defeated in WW2, the 5th Column goes back into hiding.
Time passes.
The Center extends his influence from the Council into the 5th Column, eventually subsuming them.
The 5th Column reemerge after the Rikti War, when Paragon City is at its weakest.
Once the 5th Column have significant power, The Center makes his move and the Council take over the 5th Column leadership. - Your character is responsible for this, as you convince Nosferatu and Burkholder to join the Council, and then defeat Vandal, Requiem and Maestro, who also join the Council.
Those loyal to the 5th Column (including Requiem - triple-crosser!) travel back in time, hiding out in Roman times. (ITF)
Roderick Mueller frees the Reichsman, and the 5th Column loyalists travel back to the present to support him. (Kahn/Barracuda TF)
...I forgot what experience means.
The Kheldian story arcs (I know, nobody plays those anymore) touch on all sorts of game lore. And considering it was written WAY back when, it's interesting just how much of the lore was written ahead of time.
One of those arcs details an e-mail conversation between Arakhn and Requiem, who are both Nictus, and who both work for the Council. Some of the details:
- Requiem (his human part) was sent by Arakhn to the Path of the Dark in Ravenna a long time ago and merged with a Nictus named Dirge of Entropy. Arakhn didn't expect that he'd be so powerful, and has since found herself unable to control him by overpowering him, hence why he's still somewhat autonomous. Seeing as how Cimerora takes place right around where modern-day Ravenna is, it's very likely that the second mission of the Imperious Task Force is the same place Requiem was born.
- Though it's only mentioned in passing, Arakhn belittles Requiem for his prior desires for "temporal control of the world," which is oddly specific considering the Temporal Strongholds detail outlined in Issue 12. Given that Requiem was working with the 5th Column in the ITF, which he was doing before the Council took over, it's pretty clear that chronologically (in terms of Requiem's life time), the ITF took place "before" the Council gave him a new uniform.
- Arakhn once worked for Arachnos. Ouroboros totally shoulda touched on that.
The dev's could let their imagination run wild but, instead, use these clowns that look like Nazis. I really don't care what the actual canon says...they resemble nazis far too closely. All I can say is let that whole faction fade away and stop adding stuff relating to the 5th et al. Enough already.
And besides, I've at least 2 characters who exist solely for Nazi (neo, look-alike, fascist, whatever) stomping. Any other good they do is purely incidental
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