Discussion: Issue 20: Incarnates
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 24:34 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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One of the Devs said during the EU Sneak Peek that you're still limited to the maximum number of players allowed on a given map or TF/SF - so most instances will presumably (or already do) have an 8-player (Or at least, lower than 48-player) cap to avoid exactly that problem. For example, the Lambda Sector trial is limited to 16 players (except when it wasn't and there were 21 of us, but it's still in development so we'll let them off |
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
[...]
I've put in bold why I think this could be a problem but to elaborate on that a little more I'll give a full explanation as to why I think this is a bad thing. Now it's not all bad, for Hamidon Raids, Rikti Mothership Raids, and the new content being added with this update this could be a really really good thing. However the fact that you can form a team of 48 players "for any purpose" is what makes it bad. I mean 48 players is a bit excessive for standard missions that currently exist in the game. I don't think most of our current mission maps are even large enough to support 48 players. Keeping in mind that larger team sizes also mean larger mob sizes, a team of 48 players would fill a standard sized mission map so full of NPCs that players would be killed by mobs standing on eachother's heads the moment they loaded into the mission. Think, full team of 8 Masterminds but much much worse because of mob sizes also being increased. Basically in order for this to work the game would need entirely new map sets for already existing missions, maps big enough to support the larger team sizes. Either that or Leagues would have to be limited for tasks that can already support such a large number of players and not be made available "for any purpose" as the quoted in the above announcement. [...] |
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
It costs 20 threads for a common component and 60 threads for an uncommon component, you need all 4 uncommons to make a rare component. You need 4 rares to make a Very rare component.
You can convert 10 shards to 6 threads every 20h or an unlimited amount of 10:3 conversions. |
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
9600 shards to make ONE Very Rare on the other slots?
edit: Faulty math; 3200 shards for ONE Very Rare. WTF? That's not "slower solo" progress that's "glacial don't even bother soloing come and play our raid setups we put so much time into making them" progress. And why do we have YET ANOTHER form of currency? 1. Influence/Infamy/Information 2. Vanguard Merits 3. Architect Entertainment Tickets 4. Reward Merits 5. Hero/Villain Merits 6. Incarnate Shards 7. Incarnate Threads SEVEN different forms of stuff to trade in for other stuff. Are the developers even paying attention? This game IS turning into a grindfest, with each new Issue. So much for the "casual" gameplay philosophy. |
A common alpha does NOT cost twelve shards, it takes three components which can be made with 12 shards if you can't be arsed to do the TF's that will simply get you the components you need directly. Everything but the Penumbra of Rularuu and Gr'ai Matter can be gotten via TF reward table. Play the TF's that will hand you the exact components you need and all of a sudden your 'shard cost' goes down drastically.
32 shards to upgrade a Notice to a Favor.
8 shards for each Common to Uncommon upgrade
One only NEEDS a grand total of 56 shards to make a Very Rare Alpha.
Yes, you read that right. 56 Shards if you aim specifically for the TF's or other task that will hand you the components you need instead of crafting from shards.
Add an extra 16 as a buffer zone for people that refuse to do the CoP or rely on the random Gr'ai Matter drop, so MAYBE 72 for them.
And yes, that 56 accounts for the two common to Uncommon upgrades needed for Uncommon tier Alphas as well as the 32 to upgrade two NotW to FotW and one Uncommon component for the V-rare.
All you people that are grinding away and complaining that it takes a hundred shards to make a very rare:
You. Are. Doing. It. WRONG!
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Originally Posted by Cien_Fuegos
1 Good idea but i thought limit was 50 in a zone event. Also with other MMos calling their sg leagues wouldnt it be better to call it something else? might get sued or something. Maybe call it Battlion (sorry poor spelling) or special force overall good job on new issue i just wish there was something for bases. 2 I like the two new task forces great idea, but im wondering any new content for praetoria lvl 20-40 besides task forces. Im guessing u can run the task force every night if u really want but theres more story in running arcs. 3 any plan for Epic arctype for praetorians? |
This is also the reason why so many Transformers figures with 'classic' or 'G1' counterparts have the faction they are on as part of their toy name these days: Hasbro can no longer Trademark common words like Jazz, Ravage, Frenzy, Rumble, Hot Rod, etc...
Paragon is not going to be sued by calling a huge group of players participating in one event a league, no matter the muscle behind the new 'competitor' because it is a common word in the English language and has uses beyond the scope of 'The Justice League of America' or whatever pretentious crap DC is foisting on people these days.
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*looks around for anything related to bases.*|
Originally Posted by Last Post
My two bits worth: Love the update. Seems to have a little bit of everything from badge QoL, mid level content/tf, endgame content, QoL with Heli transport.... yet there are still some jackholes that say that there is "nothing" for them in this issue....uh huh.
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/shrug.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Or pvp or AE. |
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
*looks around for anything related to bases.*
/shrug. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I always wonder why people would go looking for what's not in an issue instead of what's actually in it.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Cosmic Cole is stupid. I'd rather fight Rularuu.
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I can see several problems with this idea (and no, heroes having to participate in genocide isn't one of them.) but it's better than what we're getting by a magnitude of a million.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Here's my prediction: some time in the future villains will try to release Rularuu from his prison in order to use him as a weapon against Praetoria and Tyrant. Heroes will be allowed to tag along on this scheme to potentially destroy a world, just like villains had to tag along on schemes to protect it before. Darrin Wade or someone like him will be the contact.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I always wonder why people would go looking for what's not in an issue instead of what's actually in it.
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*Glares at the lack of AE improvements.*
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Can someone please tell me what the different fly poses are in the I20 picture are? Thanks.
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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Some things to consider.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yeah, that cost bugs me as well. Yes, I know marketeering I "could" do XYZ and be a billionaire in a week - but it's a part of the game I have no honest interest in.
... That's the combined total across 279 characters, over two accounts. |
- If you have 279 characters and 3-odd billion inf, I'm going to infer that not a whole lot of those 279 characters are level 50, and you haven't focused a lot of play time on the ones that are.
- When you play a level 50 character a lot, money rains from the heavens on them. Seriously. A capable soloist or anyone on a capable team is going to be making several million inf/hour without ever touching the Auction House.
- Incarnate stuff is progression for level 50 characters. The implication is that you'll be playing your level 50 characters a lot. This would be true no matter what the Incarnate system really was, including just a vanilla increase in the level cap.
If we want something to progress "past" 50, we have to expect to invest time in doing so, and that time invested will come with some inherent rewards that can be rolled back into the incarnate progress.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Font size changed to protect those with small monitors.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
All you people that are grinding away and complaining that it takes a hundred shards to make a very rare:
You. Are. Doing. It. WRONG! |
I think you're rather severely missing these people's points. They are explicitly looking for a way to do this stuff without running TFs. They got one, but it's pretty ugly. They are therefore feeling railroaded into doing TFs even though a system for avoiding them technically exists.
The fact that not going on a TF is "doing it wrong" is the whole point.
Bear in mind, I go on TFs all the time - I have none of these problems. But I do acknowledge the position of (most of) these folks.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
On the one hand...
I was honestly more excited about the Animal booster than anything I've read about I20 so far. Based just on what's been announced, this issue seems to offers nothing for me, a first in some time. I prefer solo/duo play, so the new task force map likely won't be seen by me -- a bummer, 'cause that floating city would have made a great place to visit. The endgame doesn't affect me since I have no level 50 toons, and the system's dependence on Praetoria for its endgame story has given me zero incentive to strive for level 50 yet. Unless something new is added to the issue description, this one's a complete bust for me personally.
On the other hand...
I honestly am happy to see an endgame being developed. This issue may offer nothing for me, but I have seen my boyfriend back playing many of his favorite level 50 characters which had been parked for some time. So I may not personally be getting anything out of the endgame, but I see its benefits right here in my own household. Anything that keeps people subscribed is good for my gaming experience.
However, on the OTHER other hand...
I worry that the Incarnate system, like AE before it, is an unwieldy beast that will endlessly suck dev energy from the rest of the game from this point on. First scheduled for GR/I18, then pushed back to I19 where they only released one half of the alpha, with I19.5 released a bit later with the second half of the alpha. Now we find out that the big news of I20 is "Yeah! More Praetorian/Incarnate Stuff!"? Seriously? It's no wonder I'm more interested in booster packs right now: they're something new. For me, I20 as currently described feels like yet another patch of stuff that ultimately should have been (was implied to be) part of GR to begin with, at least before feature creep took over.
Like I said before, I understand the need for endgame, but it sure feels to me like the entire dev team -- from the UI team, to the story guys, to the artist guilds, to power peeps -- are still locked into putting finishing touches on a game expansion that was released last August, and THAT has kept the game as a whole from moving forward. We've been told for some time that many of our other priorities couldn't be looked at until after that expansion was finished. Well, it's now seven months after GR; when CAN we expect the devs to have a chance to work on the rest of the game?
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tl;dr -- I recognize that the endgame system will please a lot of folks, if not me, so I can appreciate it's value to the game. But seven months after GR went live, I have to wonder if the devs are ever going to get around to all the things they said would have to wait until after GR?
d
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Really it's more like this:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Font size changed to protect those with small monitors.
I think you're rather severely missing these people's points. They are explicitly looking for a way to do this stuff without running TFs. They got one, but it's pretty ugly. They are therefore feeling railroaded into doing TFs even though a system for avoiding them technically exists. The fact that not going on a TF is "doing it wrong" is the whole point. Bear in mind, I go on TFs all the time - I have none of these problems. But I do acknowledge the position of (most of) these folks. |
"I choose not to do any of the content associated with this new system, but I want everything the new system has to offer anyway."
While it's technically possible to advance in the incarnate system without getting components or running raids, those people really shouldn't complain about the speed. They're looking a gift horse in the mouth. The CoH devs could've just as easily said "Look, this incarnate stuff? It's team oriented content. You have to do that to get it."
Instead, they provided an alternative means of advancement. Other games wouldn't even bother.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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seems like a good issue but i hope future issues have some of the longer tfs redone ala positron tf
as Ood Sigma said....We will sing to you, Doctor. The universe will sing you to your sleep. This song is ending. But the story never ends.
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Indeed. Playing this game makes me thankful that the Allies were able to take out the Nazis, with their evil hovering robots, genetically-engineered vampires, and dastardly werewolves.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Also, Loyalists aren't Nazis. Punching electronic representations of real-life evil people is far more enjoyable and satisfying than punching electronic representations of made-up cardboard evil people.
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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And yet once again the point is missed that the "content associated with the new system" is not the sort of content that these people enjoy.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Really it's more like this:
"I choose not to do any of the content associated with this new system, but I want everything the new system has to offer anyway." |
I'm reasonably happy with raid content, at least in broad terms. I can still understand that other people are not.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That's great and all, but it's still akin to saying you don't like PvP but still having the expectation that you deserve to have all the PvP badges, temp powers, and rewards without ever stepping into a PvP zone even once.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
And yet once again the point is missed that the "content associated with the new system" is not the sort of content that these people enjoy.
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You're free to not enjoy that new content, but to also have the expectation that you still deserve all the rewards of the incarnate system without actually participating in the majority of it?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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In this case it's because if you take out the team-only content there is nothing in this issue.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I always wonder why people would go looking for what's not in an issue instead of what's actually in it.
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That might be a more prevalent viewpoint if *all* incarnate boosts/abilities/powers are only usable in incarnate specific content/zone. But being able to use those rewards outside of the environment you receive them tends to have these debates. The thing with PVE usable rewards requiring to enter into PVP mode showed precedence.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
You're free to not enjoy that new content, but to also have the expectation that you still deserve all the rewards of the incarnate system without actually participating in the majority of it?
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This is shaping up to be the best issue since, well, Issue 19.
Looking forward to it.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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you done posi since it got split into 2 parts?|
Originally Posted by Cien_Fuegos
seems like a good issue but i hope future issues have some of the longer tfs redone ala positron tf
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although i do still prefer to do the ouro (old) version there short
only TF i dislike is Numina (23 boring tasks)
to those that are ragequitting
people come people go
i understand people want the devs to see there complaints before it goes live
speak with your wallet
happens every issue people promise to quit and dont
i feel sorry for the devs they cant win
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So if I hate the BAF but I like Lambda Sector, I'm not entitled to BAF rewards, ever? Even though the next level of trials, which might be something I like, will be balanced around my having BAF rewards?|
Originally Posted by Dispari
You're free to not enjoy that new content, but to also have the expectation that you still deserve all the rewards of the incarnate system without actually participating in the majority of it?
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Furthermore, if I like doing Lambda Sector occasionally, but don't feel like doing it right now, I should just log off my Incarnate, because I can't make any significant progress any other way?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Only if they add more SFs and not just freaking make the contact more accessible.
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Originally Posted by Cien_Fuegos
seems like a good issue but i hope future issues have some of the longer tfs redone ala positron tf
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Which incidentally they left hanging for years, even though at one point bases were bugged to not allow team members to enter for quite some time, essentially making this a coalition-only SF. I suspect the change was only made to make the SF accessible to vigilantes.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Only if they add more SFs and not just freaking make the contact more accessible.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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All those flight poses have been in the game for ages. It's just one of those hidden little gems most don't know about. |
Originally Posted by 2short2care
Can someone please tell me what the different fly poses are in the I20 picture are? Thanks.
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Some time ago they created them and a 'turning' pose and made it automatic. So everytime you'd start flying a new emote would play.
This upset a large sum of people for concept reasons. So they simply added them in as emotes instead.
Since then all my flyers end up making a fly macro and adding the ones I want for that toon.
The emotes are; Flypose1-4 I think.
I'd have to check my macro in game to be sure.
What you'll do is, when you start flying forward. Click the macro and it'll put you in the emote, click again to cycle through the various ones.
Edited to add; Heres how it looks, /macro fly, "e flypose2$$e flypose4"
Change the #'s for the desired pose.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
I was reading threw the new Issue 20 stuff that was announced and one thing really stuck out to me even before being in beta as a potential problem maker.
Keeping in mind that larger team sizes also mean larger mob sizes, a team of 48 players would fill a standard sized mission map so full of NPCs that players would be killed by mobs standing on eachother's heads the moment they loaded into the mission. Think, full team of 8 Masterminds but much much worse because of mob sizes also being increased.
Basically in order for this to work the game would need entirely new map sets for already existing missions, maps big enough to support the larger team sizes. Either that or Leagues would have to be limited for tasks that can already support such a large number of players and not be made available "for any purpose" as the quoted in the above announcement.
Aside from this one glaring flaw I'm really excited about all the new features coming out. One of the things I'm most excited about is this.
Some people may not like this feature as it promotes PUGs but as there's no real issue other than just some people not liking it they don't have to use it. The other feature I mentioned you technically don't have to use either but it actually poses a potential problem if it is used rather than me just not liking it. I actually do like both features but there's a big difference between potential problems caused by players and potential problems that could break the game. (Players being the possible leech queued up to join an Incarnate Trial and Game Breaking being that there are too many players to fit on the mission map.)
This is of course all just my opinion and speculation based on what I read in the announcement. Non of this may actually be an issue when it goes into the game hence the phrase "potential problem" as apposed to "Actually a problem" we'll just have to wait for beta and see how it all works out before placing finale judgments on it.