Discussion: Issue 20: Incarnates
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 24:34 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Tyrant's just a prop, almost. You learn more about the motivations of ground-level people in Praetoria than you do about Tyrant's. And unfortunately, while the trials do as good a job as can be expected with in advancing the plot (given the limitations of the format), I'm not sure we'll ever get to explore Tyrant's motivations in any depth. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like Tyrant
 |
I'm still kind of hoping that the devs implement parallel single-player story arcs to flesh out the trials (and high-end implications) of Praetoria a bit more.
Failing that, I think a neat idea to give Tyrant more depth is to have his trial be one that time-travels through the various stages of his life -- each phase is a different point in his life where he made choices to become what he is. (Plus, you're attacking and weakening him where he's most vulnerable.) Given that Ouroboros is involved with this, time travel could be playing a bigger role here, after all.
edit: And the best villain is obviously Requiem. He's disrespected by his troops, by his fellow Nicti, constantly in danger of being usurped by various people, and wants desperately to escape his role and his fate. Hence it's not so much that he's thoroughly evil as that he's utterly irrational and (self-)destructive and driven to perpetually make bad decisions, leading to the destruction of at least one parallel universe.
This issue is shaping up to be of even less interest to me than AE. Nice idea, poorly thought out and badly executed.
I like to solo. I like small teams. I will do larger teams with my friends; generally not PuGs. You're forcing me to PuG on these League/Raids. My friend who cannot cope with a Raid is out of luck on this content.
Your servers cannot handle Raids since the move. I disconnected twice during a recent mothership raid. It wasn't just me; broadcast was full of 'DC'd please reinvite'.
And the content is lazy.
Making all the mobs +4 and purple doesn't mean it's 'challenging'. It means someone was too lazy to think of a better idea.
NC now doesn't like tactics. You proved that with your response to tactics being used on Trapdoor. You made people brute force it to the detriment of the less offensive ATs.
You dumb down content. Original Master of badges required eight decent people and teamwork. A sense of achievement to pull off a TF without dying. This is now reduced to "do the TF often enough and you'll get the badge". Shoddy.
And another in game currency. Oh joy. Because yes obviously the dozen we have already wasn't enough.
Where is the QoL improvement? A couple of helicopters on a side which doesn't have much difficulty with transport? A better, more welcome and universally USEFUL improvement would be to allow rogues to use team leaders bases for porters when blueside and vigilante's to use team leaders bases for porters when redside. THAT would have been an amazing QoL improvement (to rogues espeically - Shard TFs suck as rogue zoning from the Shard to the City and back).
I started playing this because of the varied and updating free content. Solo or teamed, I had options. Not with this; Team/Raid or get lost. Costume pieces were a great draw for me. Where are they?
A great thing with this game was altitus. "Forming X" "What do you need"; people would/could bring pretty much anything you needed and would be happy to do so. With these limited options I can see people only unlocking one character. Only being prepared to take one character on a Raid even if something else would be of more use.
Please please get rid of or reign in whoever thinks we want to play Blizzards 800lb gorilla. If I did, I'd subscribe to that. I don't.
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There's nothing wrong with adding bits and pieces from other games if they're good ideas |
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Please please get rid of or reign in whoever thinks we want to play Blizzards 800lb gorilla. If I did, I'd subscribe to that. I don't.
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Plus, spandex is more comfortable and stylish than chainmail - so you can raid in comfort, and look good while doing it
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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End game raids aren't good ideas. World of Warcraft has shifted focus down to things much more like our Task Forces lately, because they realised that more people enjoyed smaller teams than larger teams.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There's nothing wrong with adding bits and pieces from other games if they're good ideas
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And for who can't bother to actually read the posts they're replying to, we're not talking about the Alpha Slot.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Okay folks, you NEED to stop thinking of everything in terms of how many SHARDS it takes.
A common alpha does NOT cost twelve shards,... All you people that are grinding away and complaining that it takes a hundred shards to make a very rare: You. Are. Doing. It. WRONG! |
We're talking about Judgement, Lore, Interface, Destiny. You know, the not-Alpha incarnate slots. That use Incarnate Threads to create components.
Pay attention.
While you're correct it only takes 56 shards to create a Very Rare plus four Notices of the Well, you're *missing the point*.
It takes 3200 Incarnate Shards to make 96 Incarnate Threads to make one Very Rare for a not-the-Alpha-slot Incarnate ability.
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No, they get it. They know exactly which slots are being discussed. Their point, such as it is, amounts to "just shut up and run the raids. Problem solved." The fact that some people don't *want* to run them because they can't, or simply don't enjoy that kind of gameplay at all, is what is getting ignored. |
Originally Posted by Starcloud
And for who can't bother to actually read the posts they're replying to, we're not talking about the Alpha Slot.
We're talking about Judgement, Lore, Interface, Destiny. You know, the not-Alpha incarnate slots. That use Incarnate Threads to create components. Pay attention. While you're correct it only takes 56 shards to create a Very Rare plus four Notices of the Well, you're *missing the point*. It takes 3200 Incarnate Shards to make 96 Incarnate Threads to make one Very Rare for a not-the-Alpha-slot Incarnate ability. |
But whatever. My current subscription ends just around June, I think. If the devs want me to continue giving them money, they need to come up with something more compelling than Issue 20.
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I'm curious how exactly taking over the entire multiverse can have a good intention behind it, is sympathetic, or is the least bit understandable. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like Tyrant
|
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Sorry, but the conversion that *I* saw on the test server was 10 shards for 6 (per 20 hours) or 3 (Insta clicky) threads...|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
And for who can't bother to actually read the posts they're replying to, we're not talking about the Alpha Slot.
We're talking about Judgement, Lore, Interface, Destiny. You know, the not-Alpha incarnate slots. That use Incarnate Threads to create components. Pay attention. While you're correct it only takes 56 shards to create a Very Rare plus four Notices of the Well, you're *missing the point*. It takes 3200 Incarnate Shards to make 96 Incarnate Threads to make one Very Rare for a not-the-Alpha-slot Incarnate ability. |
So according to the figures *YOU* have given, you are incorrect.
320 shards is the correct figure... for the numbers you have given of 96 threads.
Now if you meant 960 threads, then yes.... 3200 shards is correct (if you go for the insta route)... otherwise the once per day conversion (10 shards for 6 threads) is actually faster and you only need 1600 shards.
Granted, I didnt test out the drop rate of shards for lower level content, but if it is basically from *anything* you kill, i could indeed see farming of lower level mobs to make it a much faster route.
Note: 960 threads is a VERY steep cost by itself...
*edited 960 shards to threads*
Especially as currently you are only getting threads in 2 raids...
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Well, it's a good thing then that the Incarnate Trials are nothing like the WoW Raids that were toned down. That means we're on the right track!
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
End game raids aren't good ideas. World of Warcraft has shifted focus down to things much more like our Task Forces lately, because they realised that more people enjoyed smaller teams than larger teams.
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Have you even played the trials? Can you be more specific about what you don't like about them? Because that certainly is NOT all that there is to them.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Making all the mobs +4 and purple doesn't mean it's 'challenging'. It means someone was too lazy to think of a better idea. |
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, it's a good thing then that the Incarnate Trials are nothing like the WoW Raids that were toned down. That means we're on the right track!
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How do we know that we need to gather only threads to craft future slots. Apex and Tin Mage can have their own salvage for completing. BAF and Lambda could have their own salvage for completing. Then the devs could add new salvage to each of the old level 50 TFs. Although most likely, only the trials will have either one or more salvage that you can choose from since any of the new common incarnate salvage costs more shards than just 4 to craft. If you want to get the Judgment slot unlocked ASAP, then run a few trials to craft the common and quite a bit more to unlock the very rare Judgment.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Look at all the ruined or war-torn worlds we visit via Portal Corp - imagine if they became like Praetoria, with everyone peaceful and docilce and happy, and a robot workforce to give people more time to spend on art and science and culture, intead of having to struggle just to stay alive.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I'm curious how exactly taking over the entire multiverse can have a good intention behind it, is sympathetic, or is the least bit understandable.
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With his immortality and the power of the Well, Tyrant can end every conflict and every kind of suffering throughout every single dimension, and bring peace and healing to the multiverse for eternity.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Just as well the Incarnate system isn't a copy of the WoW endgame system then |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
End game raids aren't good ideas. World of Warcraft has shifted focus down to things much more like our Task Forces lately, because they realised that more people enjoyed smaller teams than larger teams.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Finally you see the light. All hail Emperor Cole!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Look at all the ruined or war-torn worlds we visit via Portal Corp - imagine if they became like Praetoria, with everyone peaceful and docilce and happy, and a robot workforce to give people more time to spend on art and science and culture, intead of having to struggle just to stay alive.
With his immortality and the power of the Well, Tyrant can end every conflict and every kind of suffering throughout every single dimension, and bring peace and healing to the multiverse for eternity. |
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Since I've been back I've noticed that people are getting awfully antagonistic on these boards. |
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
No, they get it. They know exactly which slots are being discussed. Their point, such as it is, amounts to "just shut up and run the raids. Problem solved." The fact that some people don't *want* to run them because they can't, or simply don't enjoy that kind of gameplay at all, is what is getting ignored.
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The point, I believe, is that if you want access to X thing then you have to do Y thing. That's pretty much standard across all games ever. If you don't want to do Y thing then, unlike most games, CoX gives you the option of doing Z thing as an alternative, it's just more long winded than Y thing because they'd like you play the content they've added rather than buy/farm your way around it.
That's not saying "shut up and run the raids", it's saying that if you don't like the conversion rates to get all the Incarnate stuff then you either need to run the raids or not have the Incarnate stuff and vice versa.
I don't really think it's unreasonable for the Devs to make you do things to get stuff.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
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Except the alternative isn't even attempting to be reasonable. Right now, with the Weekly Strike Target and just the Alpha, a Raid happy player can unlock the Very Rare in three weeks, I think. (Three runs for the Notices of the Well, and all the other Task Forces and Ship Raids will almost certainly give you enough shards and components to finish it.) I've been playing my level 50 solo about as much as ever, and I've gotten five shards in the last MONTH solo. At that rate, it'll take me over a year to do what they're allowing Raid players to do in less than a month. That's not a "solo option," that's an insult. It would be better for everyone if they weren't even pretending to allow solo players to participate - at least then there wouldn't be any way to argue about it.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Since I've been back I've noticed that people are getting awfully antagonistic on these boards.
The point, I believe, is that if you want access to X thing then you have to do Y thing. That's pretty much standard across all games ever. If you don't want to do Y thing then, unlike most games, CoX gives you the option of doing Z thing as an alternative, it's just more long winded than Y thing because they'd like you play the content they've added rather than buy/farm your way around it. That's not saying "shut up and run the raids", it's saying that if you don't like the conversion rates to get all the Incarnate stuff then you either need to run the raids or not have the Incarnate stuff and vice versa. I don't really think it's unreasonable for the Devs to make you do things to get stuff. |
I don't WANT to run the Task Force missions. I DO NOT LIKE THEM. It's not a question of not having time, or being unable to find a team. I don't enjoy them. At all. And yet if I want to make my character stronger, to progress in power or storyline, I'm being FORCED to do something I specifically don't enjoy. Because the "solo alternative" will take so long it's not even a realistic consideration. And that's *before* they add four more slots, which apparently use an entirely different form of currency, AND a "special" XP that *ONLY* drops naturally from the new Raids.
Really, and this point I'd rather the devs had just said flat out that solo players can't participate. It's what they're implementing anyway. And for the record, I played that big MMO that *does* lock solo players out. Want to guess why I quit and came here? Because, at the time, this game *didn't* do that. Now I'm starting to think that NCSoft doesn't want me here anymore, either. Because they certainly aren't giving me any new reasons to stay.
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Introducing a Raid heavy endgame onto an MMO that's been running for 7 years was always going to be incredibly divisive, on a level that makes AE and PVP and the rest of the hot spots look like the niche content they are. CoH has always been a brilliant exception to the norm of MMO progression, until now. Now, if you want to progress in the endgame at a sane rate then you'd better like Raiding, because that's what you're going to have to do.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Since I've been back I've noticed that people are getting awfully antagonistic on these boards.
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Once you start on the endgame path you can't stop it, and I fear that we're going to see new Raid content eat up more and more development time in the issues to come. It will also continue to fuel never ending argument on the forums, between the haves (who Raid) and the have-nots (who don't), because that's what endgame does in every MMO that has one.
This isn't doom-crying. This is fact. If we keep on this path, and I've seen no sign that we won't, then the game is going to look very very different in a year or two from what it does now.
"City of Heroes: where the game starts at 50"
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Actually, I see the darkness at heart of Praetoria - I'm just giving reasons why the stiff-armers could pretend they were on the right side |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Finally you see the light. All hail Emperor Cole!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Remarks like this make me think everyone is suddenly instantly forgetting about all lower level content. The 1-20 in Praetoria.. the new 2 tf's that are lower level. The lower level Tf's added in the WSF rotation.|
Originally Posted by Legree
Introducing a Raid heavy endgame onto an MMO that's been running for 7 years was always going to be incredibly divisive, on a level that makes AE and PVP and the rest of the hot spots look like the niche content they are. CoH has always been a brilliant exception to the norm of MMO progression, until now. Now, if you want to progress in the endgame at a sane rate then you'd better like Raiding, because that's what you're going to have to do.
Once you start on the endgame path you can't stop it, and I fear that we're going to see new Raid content eat up more and more development time in the issues to come. It will also continue to fuel never ending argument on the forums, between the haves (who Raid) and the have-nots (who don't), because that's what endgame does in every MMO that has one. This isn't doom-crying. This is fact. If we keep on this path, and I've seen no sign that we won't, then the game is going to look very very different in a year or two from what it does now. "City of Heroes: where the game starts at 50" |
There is new raid content for high level toons yes... But the lower level stuff is still there. And its not getting less.. it' s getting bigger.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THE TRIALS OR THE RAIDS... BE CONTENT WITH YOUR 50 AS HE/SHE IS!
...and simply start a new alt.
For me.. I will do my best on one toon... my main. The rest still does the content at a slower adn lower rate. Why be compulsive about having to be the top powered toon in the game! Certainly not for PVP.. as the whole incarnate part is disabled there.
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Put up or shut up. Try playing for a year, knowing Incarnates are there, but not participating in it. See if you're still happy.
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Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THE TRIALS OR THE RAIDS... BE CONTENT WITH YOUR 50 AS HE/SHE IS!
...and simply start a new alt. |
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yes it is|
Originally Posted by Legree
This isn't doom-crying. |
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| This is fact. If we keep on this path, and I've seen no sign that we won't, then the game is going to look very very different in a year or two from what it does now. |
I don't see where competitiveness necessarily fits in unless you pvp heavily, since the incarnate powers mainly function within trials (or at least the level shifts), you shouldn't feel like you "need" to progress if you're not doing trials. And if you feel like that anyway, well, that's your hangup, not the game's fault.
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I did posi every week for 23 weeks i know posi i like it can get both parts done in 1 hr. makes it easier to find people who have limited time ( 1 hr) who actually work for a living =)|
Originally Posted by morbious
you done posi since it got split into 2 parts?
although i do still prefer to do the ouro (old) version there short only TF i dislike is Numina (23 boring tasks) |
Ill run down the tfs it will make why a lot of people would like them to shorten the tfs
depending on team ( i know some people are faster than this im talking average teams )
some of the times range
Posi - 1 hr to 1 hr 15mins
Synapse- 1 hr 20 mins to 3 hrs
Sister Psyche 37 mins to 2 hrs
Citadel 37mins to 2 hrs
Manticore 30 mins to 1 hr
Numia 30 mins to 1 hr 15 mins
SHARD TFS ( as a suggestion these can be combined to less times by having defeatalls combined)
Dr Q 1 hr 30 mins to 6 hrs
Sara moore 1 hr to 3 hrs
3rd shard tf 30 minsto 3 hrs
4th shard 1hr to 4 hrs
most of the tfs can be fixed by
1. combining some defeatalls or deliverys
2. cutting down on the defeatalls
3 making it one city instead of city section hopping
as Ood Sigma said....We will sing to you, Doctor. The universe will sing you to your sleep. This song is ending. But the story never ends.
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You're perfectly capable of doing the things required to obtain Incarnate. It's only your own fault that you don't "feel like it," yet still want the rewards anyway.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Put up or shut up. Try playing for a year, knowing Incarnates are there, but not participating in it. See if you're still happy.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If the solo option is slow and restrictive enough to not even be worth it, then why have it? That's just faulty design, plain and simple. If your goal is to strong arm players into team content, just lock them out instead of hiding that intention behind a pitiful solo option.
All we're looking for is a solo option that is viable. I don't see why people who aren't interested in raids (or screwing around in Praetoria in general) need to be treated like second class citizens. The solo option does not need to be just as fast as raiding, it does not need to be supremely easier than raiding. The gap in raid versus solo time investment just needs to be tightened so that one player isn't hitting Omega level by the time another is just finishing up their Interface.
I feel bad to call it out like this, but this exact same flawed design was previously seen with Vanguard Merits. And someone even compared this to the Contaminated in Recluse's Victory. The guy behind those as well as the Incarnate system? Positron. I don't mean this as a slight against the man, I just want to know why exactly the solo player needs to marginalized so harshly in every new system.
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If however you refuse to do all the incarnate content. All the task forces. All the trials. And plot out getting things entirely with shards you got soloing newspaper missions. Then yes, your sense of entitlement in regards to incarnate rewards is too great.
It's exactly how it works now. If you get alpha with entirely components it can go really fast. But let's say you don't feel like doing a CoP or a Reichsman TF (which is a pretty reasonable expectation). You toss a few shards at those components and move on. You can skip some of the things you aren't that fond of.
Now, if you refuse to do any task forces, get any components, participate in any of the WST, then your shards-only route for alpha is 488 shards. I have no sympathy for people saying that's too many. Nor do I have any for people saying 1600 is too many for Judgement et al. There are plenty of options available to you. If you opt to take none of them, and only grind shards, you made your bed with that one.