Discussion: Issue 20: Incarnates
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 24:34 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I question how sound that premise is, though. My response to being forced into raid content, or grinding Vanguard Merits Mk. 3 is to simply not participate at all.|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Ian: Perhaps to encourage teaming so players do not leave because they "could not find a team."
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Would opening up a more viable avenue towards steady solo Incarnate progression derail raids all that much? How many people are/are going to be participating in the raid content because they have to, rather than because they enjoy it?
Keep in mind that I would fully expect raids to still be faster, and between the very loud contingent of raid-lovers making their presence known, the new raid queue facilitating fast and easy team building, the inevitable Issue launch rush to new content, and the folks that turn these encounters into a science...I really doubt that the raids would be turned into ghost towns.
Actually, what I would fear far more is the Incarnate system collapsing under its own weight. If they add too many raids or things to do, they'll spread the Incarnate population too thin. I also fear that high level Incarnates could start devaluing lower level Incarnate content. None of these things are going to come into effect quite yet, but once all ten levels are in and there's a more diverse population of Incarnates working their way up the ladder it could become a problem.
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No more so than level 50 content has "devalued" lower level content. Which people still do.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Actually, what I would fear far more is the Incarnate system collapsing under its own weight. If they add too many raids or things to do, they'll spread the Incarnate population too thin. I also fear that high level Incarnates could start devaluing lower level Incarnate content.
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And even if they don't, I wouldn't rule out a future, added incentive to do all incarnate trials, much like how the Weekly Strike Target can encourage playing through lower level TFs.
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Perhaps it was a poor word choice. I meant devalued as in Incarnate trials designed for low level Incarnates would be potentially made incredibly easier by higher level ones.|
Originally Posted by minimalist_NA
No more so than level 50 content has "devalued" lower level content. Which people still do.
And even if they don't, I wouldn't rule out a future, added incentive to do all incarnate trials, much like how the Weekly Strike Target can encourage playing through lower level TFs. |
Regardless, my point is that those concerns are far more tangible than a solo path noticeably depopulating the team path.
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Everyone brings up valid points, and they adamantly defend them all.
I'm the type of person who doesn't believe things until they go live.
You ever stop to think, that the conversion rates, and what it takes to make them is just a front? Imagine if they put their actual rates into a test server or a sneak peek?
What I'm getting at is this.... Say the rates are actually smaller, and they used those on the tests.... Well, those rates would get spread around... just like the current ones are now.... and people would start stockpiling so that by the time i20 comes out... they already have enough shards/threads/dohickeys to unlock what they want.... and whoops, are the effort the devs just put onto the new trials and whatever else they have planned... is completely down the drain, because people went a different route to get things unlocked.
...just saying..
Everything I've read sounds really cool, but I haven't heard anything about the Incarnate system opening up past the Alpha slot stage. I mean the issue is called Incarnates....so I am assuming we will get access to the Omega slots, but I'd feel a lot better if that was actually said. I really love to see more info on what each one does. What's up Devs?
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I don't understand why you want a solo option for a system whose only use is for team content. If you don't do the new trials, you won't unlock later Incarnate slots. Because of this, you will be at a disadvantage on these new trials. But since you're not doing the new trials, it doesn't matter.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
If the solo option is slow and restrictive enough to not even be worth it, then why have it? That's just faulty design, plain and simple. If your goal is to strong arm players into team content, just lock them out instead of hiding that intention behind a pitiful solo option.
All we're looking for is a solo option that is viable. I don't see why people who aren't interested in raids (or screwing around in Praetoria in general) need to be treated like second class citizens. The solo option does not need to be just as fast as raiding, it does not need to be supremely easier than raiding. The gap in raid versus solo time investment just needs to be tightened so that one player isn't hitting Omega level by the time another is just finishing up their Interface. I feel bad to call it out like this, but this exact same flawed design was previously seen with Vanguard Merits. And someone even compared this to the Contaminated in Recluse's Victory. The guy behind those as well as the Incarnate system? Positron. I don't mean this as a slight against the man, I just want to know why exactly the solo player needs to marginalized so harshly in every new system. |
You lose literally nothing here. Except, I guess, new content, but them's the breaks. The devs can't satisfy everyone every Issue.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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There are currently 4 new slots available to see in the sneak peek - Judgemnent, Interface, Lore and Destiny.|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
Everything I've read sounds really cool, but I haven't heard anything about the Incarnate system opening up past the Alpha slot stage. I mean the issue is called Incarnates....so I am assuming we will get access to the Omega slots, but I'd feel a lot better if that was actually said. I really love to see more info on what each one does. What's up Devs?
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You can see more info here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=254147
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That would be true, if the Incarnate powers only functioned at all in Incarnate trials. Indications are though, that the pets and AoE and buffs will work in any mission, as long as you're currently fighting at level fifty. Are you seriously trying to claim that even just the Alpha boost has no value to a solo player doing level 50 missions?
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I don't understand why you want a solo option for a system whose only use is for team content. If you don't do the new trials, you won't unlock later Incarnate slots. Because of this, you will be at a disadvantage on these new trials. But since you're not doing the new trials, it doesn't matter.
You lose literally nothing here. Except, I guess, new content, but them's the breaks. The devs can't satisfy everyone every Issue. |
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Don't all Incarnate abilities work (well, apparently not level shifts, I've picked that much up) as long as you're not exemplared below level 50, regardless of what you're doing?|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I don't understand why you want a solo option for a system whose only use is for team content. If you don't do the new trials, you won't unlock later Incarnate slots. Because of this, you will be at a disadvantage on these new trials. But since you're not doing the new trials, it doesn't matter.
You lose literally nothing here. Except, I guess, new content, but them's the breaks. The devs can't satisfy everyone every Issue. |
I suppose I could reconfigure my complaints into "Hey, I want something to do on my level 50s that isn't a raid" if I've been somehow misinformed.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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This is the exact sort of mindset that caused me to opt for this MMO over the competition. Bringing this into this game is not an improvement.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
You're perfectly capable of doing the things required to obtain Incarnate. It's only your own fault that you don't "feel like it," yet still want the rewards anyway.
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i just hope that there is no more currencies as another currency to aquire the slots is dumb already.
I kinda just glanced threw the conversation here so correct me if I'm wrong but it kinda sounds there's two entirely different conversations going on as a single argument.
On one side of the conversation someone is saying "I don't want to do Incarnate related content because it's basically requiring me to do existing TFs and Raids not all of which even give me the Incarnate benefits."
On the other side of the conversation someone is saying "So you want the rewards but you don't want to do any of the work to get them."
To me it doesn't sound like the second half of that conversation is really the problem here and they're in a whole different subject. It sounds like the complaint is "How is being an incarnate going to matter if A. My incarnate abilities only work at 50 and B. Not everything I'm doing as an incarnate is level 50."
Now I would agree that if someone was merely complaining that they wanted rewards for doing nothing (Gives evil look to power levelers and leeches) then they really have no right to complain just because they're too lazy to actually do anything themselves.
But the complaint being "Why am I getting rewards I can't even use" is perfectly valid... in a way... If you've been around long enough you should be aware that Accolade powers use to be restricted to the level you earned the accolade in the first place. My first character wasn't even aware accolades existed until after he was already 50 so this resulted in me loosing my accolades every time I exemplared down. It was like, why did I spend all that time earning these things if I can't use them? It kinda makes the effort to get the rewards rather pointless if you can't use them.
That being said, no one is forcing anyone to participate in content that isn't level 50 so if this is the issue you could just limit yourself to level 50 content and if non is available use that time to work on your alts. Don't wanna do Strike Targets unless they're level 50, fine don't, but don't complain about new content being added that IS level 50.
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You're in luck then. According to the screen shots from the sneak peak, the new Incarnate slots need three new currencies. Incarnate Threads, and two kinds of "incarnate Merits." There might also be a form of "Incarnate XP" required to even unlock the slots in the first place, but I'm not certain about this (and honestly no longer care.)
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Originally Posted by Terror1
i just hope that there is no more currencies as another currency to aquire the slots is dumb already.
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The complaint really has very little to do with <50 content. The complaint has to do with the incarnate system requiring participation in raids to progress in any reasonable timeframe. If you solo or prefer smaller groups the options are A. to suck it up and play the raids you don't like; B. grind for an obscene amount of shards to convert into threads; or C. ignore the Incarnate system entirely.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I kinda just glanced threw the conversation here so correct me if I'm wrong but it kinda sounds there's two entirely different conversations going on as a single argument.
On one side of the conversation someone is saying "I don't want to do Incarnate related content because it's basically requiring me to do existing TFs and Raids not all of which even give me the Incarnate benefits." On the other side of the conversation someone is saying "So you want the rewards but you don't want to do any of the work to get them." To me it doesn't sound like the second half of that conversation is really the problem here and they're in a whole different subject. It sounds like the complaint is "How is being an incarnate going to matter if A. My incarnate abilities only work at 50 and B. Not everything I'm doing as an incarnate is level 50." Now I would agree that if someone was merely complaining that they wanted rewards for doing nothing (Gives evil look to power levelers and leeches) then they really have no right to complain just because they're too lazy to actually do anything themselves. But the complaint being "Why am I getting rewards I can't even use" is perfectly valid... in a way... If you've been around long enough you should be aware that Accolade powers use to be restricted to the level you earned the accolade in the first place. My first character wasn't even aware accolades existed until after he was already 50 so this resulted in me loosing my accolades every time I exemplared down. It was like, why did I spend all that time earning these things if I can't use them? It kinda makes the effort to get the rewards rather pointless if you can't use them. That being said, no one is forcing anyone to participate in content that isn't level 50 so if this is the issue you could just limit yourself to level 50 content and if non is available use that time to work on your alts. Don't wanna do Strike Targets unless they're level 50, fine don't, but don't complain about new content being added that IS level 50. |
The talk about content below level 50 comes up as an alternative to then Incarnate system for soloist. The argument is that if you don't want to do the raids you still have access to the same old content you've been playing for the past 7 years.
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I don't think it's really a matter of "I don't like raids" as it is "My computer can't handle raids".|
Originally Posted by Bossa_Nova
The complaint really has very little to do with <50 content. The complaint has to do with the incarnate system requiring participation in raids to progress in any reasonable timeframe. If you solo or prefer smaller groups the options are A. to suck it up and play the raids you don't like; B. grind for an obscene amount of shards to convert into threads; or C. ignore the Incarnate system entirely.
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Personally I can handle raids IF I turn my graphics down to the minimum settings however I can run Ultra Mode for anything else in the game. However I didn't always have such a great computer so I know what it's like to play the minimum graphics and still lag so bad that I can't move. This would leave allot of people out of the raids who can't afford to upgrade their computers to handle the lag. My current computer I only got last Christmas, the first 5-6 years of game play was painfully difficult to do raids with.
I was actually having an in game conversation about this with one of my global friends who doesn't like the idea of a 48 player raid team because her computer can't handle the lag that would cause.
That being said if you're still doing 8 player TFs which doesn't cause any more lag than just doing normal missions there shouldn't really be an issue. And the weekly strike targets seem to all be TFs not raids so you could just do that.
If lag is not the issue well then, people are just lazy and really shouldn't complain just because they don't like one aspect of the game that they really don't have to do.
I'm not complaining that I had to respec all my level 45-50 characters for Inherent Fitness, I'm just admittedly being lazy and not wanting to do it. :P I actually spent an entire day just doing respecs and still have more respecs to do. Two of my characters needed respecs anyway and I've just stopped playing them for a while till I feel like doing it and the other two are heroes I'm currently working on switching to Villains and unlocking Patrons before I use their respecs.
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Yes, because it's lazy to not want to do things you don't find fun in a video game. |
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
If lag is not the issue well then, people are just lazy
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That's exactly the problem. Thanks so much for figuring it out.
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No, it's a matter of "I don't like raids," or "I prefer to solo/duo/play in small groups." I don't remember lag even being mentioned in this thread. |
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I don't think it's really a matter of "I don't like raids" as it is "My computer can't handle raids".
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| If lag is not the issue well then, people are just lazy and really shouldn't complain just because they don't like one aspect of the game that they really don't have to do. |
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| I'm not complaining that I had to respec all my level 45-50 characters for Inherent Fitness, I'm just admittedly being lazy and not wanting to do it. :P I actually spent an entire day just doing respecs and still have more respecs to do. Two of my characters needed respecs anyway and I've just stopped playing them for a while till I feel like doing it and the other two are heroes I'm currently working on switching to Villains and unlocking Patrons before I use their respecs. |
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If the only way we will be able to fight on Cole's side is in AE, then that is a horrible failure on the part of Paragon Studios.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Somehow, I think the only way we will be able to is in AE.
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Haha epic sarcasm is epic
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Yes, because it's lazy to not want to do things you don't find fun in a video game.
That's exactly the problem. Thanks so much for figuring it out. |
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
my main trouble with the I Fitness is that i can not find 3 more powers that I think fit into the char concept. And they must be somewhat useful with only 1 slot. as for the trials, i have a fairly powerful computer, and right now I get slide shows sometimes. now we are going to add up to 48 in a trial. even more slide shows,now i could turnoff ultra mode,but why should I?( cpu i7 with 12 gigs ram,nvidia 470gtx, and win7 enterprise 64 bit) and now one of the slots
will add a "pet",and what about MM? with 6 pets per?
now add in the "possibility" of cross-server teaming(my own tin foil hat thought) now it is City of Lag.
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
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There are new types of merrit in I20 for the 2 raids |
Originally Posted by Terror1
i just hope that there is no more currencies as another currency to aquire the slots is dumb already.
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
If the only way we will be able to fight on Cole's side is in AE, then that is a horrible failure on the part of Paragon Studios.
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The scale of Tyrant's evil gives them the chance to create evil content way worse than anything done in CoV, because with the multiverse being threatened, there could be arcs or TFs where villains really could conquer or destroy an entire world for Tyrant without running into the problem of always being foiled like every plot against Primal Earth has to fail.
By making the loyalists attack other dimensions, that gives the devs the ability to make "throw away" worlds where villainous plans can succeed, and be "permanent".
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Did you also want to join the Nemesis army?
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
If the only way we will be able to fight on Cole's side is in AE, then that is a horrible failure on the part of Paragon Studios.
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Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Well, we are working with the Menders |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Did you also want to join the Nemesis army?
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As for letting Villains serve Tyrant, the devs do seem to be going out of their way to set up some kind of Incarnate conflict by making the Well takes sides, and then introducing Prometheus as an opponent of the Well.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Thus far, I have been very pleased with the pace of the release of new content, especially the Incarnate stuff. I would much rather have a steady progression, to let the character's own story unfold within the Incarnate arc, rather than be instantly powerful. For me, becoming instantly powerful does not seem fun at all. I would rather take my time with a team,have fun, rp the content(when with rp group 
, and just have a good time. These issues have been alot of fun, as I LOVE a Challenge(was on an Apex with my DP/Kin/Pow Mastery Musculature Radial lvl shifted Corruptor with 7 Tanks/Scrappers/Stalkers...talk about challenging! XD), I eagerly await the issues to be released this year!
Haven't seen the new issue sneak peek, but I did see something about a Ship City? Very cool
See you all in game!
@Ik's Last Stand, Virtue
Ik-Thazai(D3 Defender), Hasdrabul Skaras(DB/DA Stalker), Takaroa(Rad/En/Blaze Blaster), Resplendent Crane(KM/Nin Stalker), Carthago(DP/Kin/Power Corruptor),
"When war turns whole populations into sleepwalkers, outlaws don't join forces with alarm clocks. Outlaws, like poets, rearrange the nightmare." -Tom Robbins
Ian: Perhaps to encourage teaming so players do not leave because they "could not find a team."