How you would balance the Market?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-25 18:30 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
Market/Invention idea|
Originally Posted by Yorukira
Today I was doing my typical shopping through the market, getting the Purple IO and the salvage need. Also selling IO and recipe to sustain my 5 toon with over a 1billion builds(And to believe that is cheap)
The best way to describe the market would be Pure Chaos. Then it hit me, may this is the only way it can be when players don't know the basic of economy. There is no way to fix it. But how would you balance the market to eliminate inflation and many other situation it have? Giving more supply/inf will not help since it will only keep inflation going. |
- Make all recipes work at all levels and scale with said level.
- Make all recipes drop at all levels, except purples.
- Either merge all salvage level tiers and update the recipes to reflect that or just have all salvage drop at all levels.
That should fix the screwed up mid level range supply issue. It would also let sets continue to work regardless of level and still not invalidate having a purple recipe as they have far higher bonuses then any normal set recipe out there. It would also balance out the amount of salvage on the market.
Just because you can add a system to an existing system doesn't mean that you must make it as complex as possible for it to be good. KISS has merit.
As for ingame Money Sinks....
More Buyable temp powers:
- Temp Costumes (last 1 hour of game time)
- Temp Powers (like rez self, rez other, team teleport, snowballs) balance with low charges and higher costs. eg. team teleport 5 uses 500k inf or something
- Temp Auras
- Ingame buyable costume/weapon unlocks with inf
- Ingame buyable emote unlocks with inf
- better inf to prestige conversion to promote burning inf into prestige
- more base functionality to spend inf/prestige on
Whatever would be done has to be "fun". That is paramount to a good game.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Quote:
Yeah, I still support the inf-for-shift idea.
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I guess we get to define our own problems and then solve them.
Too much inf! Not enough midlevel recipes! For 10 million inf you can change a recipe to any level in the same "band" (1-25, 26-40, 41-50) and for 10 million inf you can change from the bottom of one band to the top of another or vice versa (25 to 26, 41 to 40, whatever). So for 30 million you can turn a LoTG level 50 into a LoTG level 26: 50-41, 41-40, 40-26. For another 10 million you can turn it into a level 25. Some people would pay the extra. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
the inf. for shifting idea is cool. I'd also support dev seeding of items on the market. Why ? Because it would take out 100% of a transaction instead of just 10%. If you've got 100% of some transactions leaving the population and randomly inserted dev seeding, we should see greater price fluctuations and eventually some lower prices.
Yes I'm aware this would be an increase in supply, no simply increasing drop rates is not a better idea. Increasing drop rates does not remove 100% of the influence spent on acquisition.
Another idea is to offer a setting that generates lower influence earnings but greater chances for drops. Alternately there could be a temp power at a fixed price that increases drops while its active.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Quote:
Prestige / inf conversions should've been a good way to burn inf ... but, at the end of the day, bases blow chunks. And then, once they're built, they're almost free to operate. I can pay off the rent for a blinged out base with what ... a couple TFs? It might, ultimately, be better to nuke prestige and have everything paid for straight-up with inf.|
Originally Posted by Djeannie
Other Money Sinks
Whatever would be done has to be "fun". That is paramount to a good game. |
Enough critiquing.
To your list, I'd add early access to new primary / secondary sets -- akin to how the devs gave out access to demons and DP with pre-orders of GR. To add extra enticement, attach a badge to the transaction.
The hardcore solution to the inflationary system we currently have, IME, would be to cap how much inf is in the game. But I'm not sure how people would react to AV defeats being worth 10 inf one minute and full value the next depending on how active the market and the hospital vendors are.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but this is the best suggestion I've seen so far. Has a lot of moxie. |
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
I would make Friday part of the weekend and give every new baby chocolate eclairs.
|
Djeannie's is also awesome.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
I will be the Chosen One of the Market and bring balance to it.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
No, as long as they're sufficiently desireable money sinks, they will remove enough money from the game. It's fine if some people want to hoard money and be stupidly rich, that won't ncessarily create inflation.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
Money sinks by themselves won't do it. In order to to prevent long-term price changes, they need to be compulsory money sinks. Otherwise, players can accumulate money without bound, leading to inflation.
|
The other obvious thing they could do would be to declare that some tabloid did a huge expose on "supervillains and superheroes: why they're not very important", resulting in the whole market being reset (like they did for the merge) and every inf total over 1M inf being divided by 10.
Quote:
...you mean, like, ED, only for wealth? |
Originally Posted by seebs
The other obvious thing they could do would be to declare that some tabloid did a huge expose on "supervillains and superheroes: why they're not very important", resulting in the whole market being reset (like they did for the merge) and every inf total over 1M inf being divided by 10.
|
Price Caps on all goods in the game is the only thing I'd like to see.
Comic and Hero/Villain Culture
Saturday January 29th, 2005 (12:37 PM) ~ Monday August 9th, 2010
Those Who Lived It Will Remember Long after your Ban Hammer Crumbles and the servers flicker dead.
We Will Remember This One Moment In Time! ~ Shadow Ravenwolf
I agree with what was said earlier in that I would need to know how it is broken.
Having said that, I pay more than I have for things these days, but I also sell items for more than I used to. To me, it balances out just fine. I get so much more salvage than I need, too, that it is never a problem.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Hmm... my knee-jerk reaction is, "You can't fix what ain't broke." But, my devil's-advocate side says, "Increase mid-level drop rates?" With all the end-game content generating so much at the top level without much to offer in the middle, it's gotten pretty dry for options. Sure, we can wait for it to balance out to normal when the new stuff gets played out, but I don't see that happening with all the continued support for end-game content.
Oh, and the inf-for-IO-level-shift sounds good too.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Inflation is a given, where goods are created "for free". I don't consider that a problem of the market. |
Originally Posted by Yorukira
But how would you balance the market to eliminate inflation and many other situation it have?
|
BUT, there are a few things I'd like to see:
1) Move all IOs to divisible by 5 levels. No more level 37 or 49, treat them all like the common IOs: 30,35,40,45, 50, etc. This will pool the existing supply, making competition and comparison easier, not to mention removing a lot of "this hasn't sold in 3 months, so I won't put mine up for sale, so there are none for sale, so no one will waste a slot on a standing bid, so...".
2) More information. What if instead of seeing 5 single bids, you saw both the last 5 different prices, and the 5 most used prices with a count of how many there had been (perhaps within a recent time range). Or any of a number of other systems.
Basically, when I as a casual player hit the market and see Alchemical Silvers selling for 200k each, I _know_ that I can either decide it's worth it, or pop down to the appropriate level range and grind out my own. What I don't know is whether filling a market slot with, say, a 100k bid and waiting until Tuesday is likely to work. I don't know that because I'm not on the market enough to know what's "normal", and the last 5 certainly doesn't give me "normal". So is paying 200k a sign of impatience, or what's to be expected? Those that do a lot at the market know the answer. The casual player doesn't.
Better information on "the norm" would encourage competition because if I play once/week, I might be willing to drop a bid and wait, but I don't want to drop a bid on EVERYTHING interesting, because I have limited market slots and I won't be on again until next week so I can't take advantage of anything that is fulfilled tomorrow.
I understand that "the norm" isn't going to stay stable, but I think more info than we have will reduce the chaos while still allowing people to be impatient and get what they want for a big price. When I'm impatient (and that's often, when I'm on) I don't mind paying extra for convenience. It'd just be nice to know IF I'm paying extra for convenience, or actually getting a good deal. I suspect this lack of knowing what is normal is what causes a lot of people to avoid the Market entirely.
3) Merge redside/blueside
Oh, they did this. And I love it.
Quote:
We have one. It's two billion inf.|
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
Price Caps on all goods in the game is the only thing I'd like to see.
|
What effect do you think a price cap would have on items? Why do you think it would have that effect?
Quote:
I think it would make me rich off market so I support it. |
Originally Posted by seebs
We have one. It's two billion inf.
What effect do you think a price cap would have on items? Why do you think it would have that effect? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Probably one of the first things I would do is add a multiplier to the inf exchange formula. For everyone but me, the multiplier would remain 1. But for me, the multiplier would be variable. If I was buying, then the amount of inf I bid would be multiplied by a number greater than 1 with the difference being automagically generated by the server. If I was selling, then the amount of inf I received would also be multiplied by a number greater than 1 with the difference being automagically generated by teh server.
This multiplier could randomly range from say 1.1 to 11.
This would make for a much nicer balance of me vs the rest of the world.
Quote:
Amen, brother. You and every marketeer who wants to make more money than they do now.
|
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
Price Caps on all goods in the game is the only thing I'd like to see.
|
By the way, the "pay to shift" idea is totally not mine. If I gave any other impression, I apologize.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I'd like to see more inf sinks along the lines of the merit to A-merit conversions: totally optional, small enough to not really put anyone out or force anyone to "save up all their inf," worth it to a lot of people.
IO level shifting would be awesome. A set cost to shift the level down, double that to shift the level up. People would probably pay it.
Price caps....price caps could eliminate a lot of your best customers, I think. Sure, some things would sell for more off-market, but the rich and impatient would no longer be able to overpay for items on the market. Just think of how much some of the PvP IOs might sell for if there wasn't a price cap on them. I'm also lazy, so I admit there is a certain amount of self-interest involved in my position on price caps.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Well, WITH the price cap they're 3-3.5 billion, so WITHOUT I'm going to guess 4Bn. The market does tend to skooch prices up due to the Buy It Nao people. (I've been on both sides of that. It's good.)
| Just think of how much some of the PvP IOs might sell for if there wasn't a price cap on them |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
I don't think that's a very accurate way of describing the market. The market has very clear and easy to see patterns which are not at all chaotic. A few of those are:|
Originally Posted by Yorukira
The best way to describe the market would be Pure Chaos.
|
1) Items cost more during weekends and on special events.
2) It is usually cheaper to buy a recipe and salvage than it is to buy the finished enhancement.
3) Prices are inflating as increasing amounts of Inf go into the system.
Every one of these patterns can be used to make money, if that is your goal.
I suspect that what you mean is something closer to “I did not understand why prices fluctuated a lot for some items when I looked at the last five sold.” That’s different. You do realize that some people like a bargain and are willing to wait, while others are in a hurry and pay higher prices, right?
What did you think was chaotic?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Yorukira
Then it hit me, may this is the only way it can be when players don't know the basic of economy. There is no way to fix it.
|
What do you think would happen if the players did know the basics of economics?
Quote:
Sometimes you people just make me fruvous!
|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
I'm sorry, but this is the best suggestion I've seen so far. Has a lot of moxie.
Djeannie's is also awesome. |
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
Actually, I would guess that without a price cap and with some (admittedly) limited transparency in the marketplace, they would quickly settle out somewhere between 2-3bn. I figure that's around the price point that acquisition through A-merits meets the market.
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Well, WITH the price cap they're 3-3.5 billion, so WITHOUT I'm going to guess 4Bn. The market does tend to skooch prices up due to the Buy It Nao people. (I've been on both sides of that. It's good.)
|
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
It takes about 2 months to accumulate enough A-merits to buy a PVP IO.|
Originally Posted by seebs
We have one. It's two billion inf.
What effect do you think a price cap would have on items? Why do you think it would have that effect? |
If I spent that much time, and am capped to 2 bill for it, I wouldn't sell it on the market. 2 months of 5 tips/day is a LOT of work, and I want to be compensated for as much as possible for that effort. That's why a lot of PVP IOs are selling off market using trade or email for the transaction.
An infamy cap just means more things will sell off the market, hence less people putting things for sale in the market. Remember, you are not buying from the game. You are buying from another player. As long as someone else is willing to pay more than you, the sell price will head in that direction.
Quote:
That would just lead to off market trading, just like you see in this forum for the more desired pvp IO's....of course this may be WHY you'd like that cap in place heh.|
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
Price Caps on all goods in the game is the only thing I'd like to see.
|
Oh on my earlier suggestion with just removing IO recipe levels, you'd also need a nominal crafting cost. Perhaps one that increases a bit with each salvage item needed. The devs overcomplicated the Inventions system and it's caused a mess.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Like this.
