How you would balance the Market?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSorrow View Post
Inf != Dollars. At least it isn't to me, I don't know if you think 1 dollar is worth 1 inf, but I certainly don't.

The thing is, I bet many people experience a sort of price shock when they enter the WW for ubah lootz. They see the price tag and think one billion dollars, I see one billion units of play money. Guess which one of us is more shocked by the price? The situation is very similar in many board games, take Monopoly for an example. For most people it's not problematic to spend hundreds of units of play money during a session of that game while they would never do that with real money. This game just adds a few zeroes to the end of those hundred units of play money.




Frankly, I'd call anyone who claimed all those builds were actually completed within the game deluded. I make builds like that all the time, but end up abandoning the character it was planned for or switching the build focus. Sometimes even making a cheaper version of the build because I don't like the character enough.

As for full sets of Kinetic Combat, Numina, etc., you can get those for very little compared to their "market worth" if you're patient. I do TFs and get my R merits and don't roll them all at once, instead I convert them to A merits and roll them 50 at a time that way. It gets me better returns, but takes a bit longer. Often I get rare IOs I need, sometimes I don't, and what I don't need I sell. Patience goes a long way in making builds affordable.

You want rare IOs? Well, you can either have the build at a low cost or right now. You can only pick one of them.
Whatever you want to call it, it still spends the same way. Just because they choose to call the in game money "influence", doesn't mean it's any cheaper then "money", "dollars", "lootz", "denero", "greenbacks", "bread" or any other term used to describe money. In order to spend it, you gotta have it. I don't see the relevance of differenciating it from RL. It's a game but to get stuff, it is not free, so we have to spend what the game gives us as a form of "money".

But youre correct. If someone has the time to do TF after TF and wait months to add up A merits, then they are cheaper. Not everyone wants to spend 6 months for a couple recipes though.

And youre saying noone has builds like they post? I can show you several of my toons with very rares that are complete.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
And youre saying noone has builds like they post? I can show you several of my toons with very rares that are complete.
He said not all of those builds actually exist, not that none of them do. Some of them belong to min-maxers who are willing to earn the inf they need to make those builds happen. I'm sure many more belong to people who consider them a long-term project and are currently works in progress.

Back on-topic: WE know inf isn't dollars, we know higher prices affect both the buyer and the seller, but to your average player who maybe hasn't used the market in a while there is quite a bit of sticker shock. Perception does matter, in a user-driven system.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
I don't see the relevance of differenciating it from RL.
Read again. Maybe you'll catch it this time.


Quote:
And youre saying noone has builds like they post? I can show you several of my toons with very rares that are complete.
Read again. Maybe you'll catch it this time.


- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

In the real world, most of us make a certain range of Dollars (or Euro, or Pounds or Renminbi). Sure, there's a huge range of possible incomes that people make, but, for example, something like 95% of the people in the US make less than $100k per year (according to tax software, anyway). We all have to take that income and spend it on things like food, a place to live, and other "basic necessities".

In the real world we might sit and think whether we can afford to spend $1000, because if we spend it, we may not be able to pay rent, buy food, or fix our car. In CoH, if we spend 10M inf on some set IO, we can't buy... some other set IOs. But set IOs are a luxury. We don't have to have them. Lots of us want them, sure, but we won't die of malnutrition or go to jail if we don't get them, or if we get cheaper, less powerful versions instead.

The cost of "basic necessities" in CoH is very low compared to what I expect the 95% income range is. Our characters don't need homes, or food. They don't have kids to care for, they never need a car. They never get sick, but if they get injured, they not only get free health care, they get teleported and resurrected to perfect health.

When people talk about equating Dollars and Inf, they mean someone looks at a price tag of 1B Inf and thinks, "my God, $1B is more money than many corporations earn in a year - how can I ever earn 1B Inf?" They're talking about translating Dollar sticker shock directly into Inf terms. Yes, Dollars and Inf are both used to buy stuff, but any true exchange rate between them cannot be used to decide what's out of reach for an in-game buyer.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

In another MMO, when I heard people say they "needed" a particular item, I'd always argue with them. What do you mean "need"? Without it you'll die?

1. So what? You'll come back.
2. No, you won't.

We don't have needs. We have whims. For the most part, easily-satisfied whims.


 

Posted

Quote:
Noone wants air bursts, serendipity, and plenty of other sets. They may as well delete them from taking up space. Who actually goes to WW to get them for their builds? Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.
Well, I don't believe YOU exist either.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Many computer RPGs have the same inflated price differences between the lower and higher levels. When you first start out the higher level equipment seems to have impossible prices. Clearly the designers who are setting these numbers are thinking very abstractly.

I must have played a dozen games where you go into the first store and see something like this

Terrible dagger (level 1): 5 copper pieces
Poor dagger (level 5): 10,000 silver pieces
Average Dagger (level 10): 1,000,000,000 jewel-encrusted platinum mega-pieces

CoX is no exception, and I can see why new players would balk at some of the prices they see in the market. It's a good thing that "Inf" is an invisible, intangible non-money thing, or we would need big animated wheelbarrows in the game to cart it around.


 

Posted

I didn't read the whole thread. I think increasing invention salvage storage would help fix the market. Either make stacked invention salvage count as one inventory item, up to a number less than 100, or increase the overall storage size. The rest of the market is fine.


 

Posted

I've got something like five or six billion inf, and I have never once slotted a purple.

(I am, of course, cheating horribly here.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I've got something like five or six billion inf, and I have never once slotted a purple.

(I am, of course, cheating horribly here.)
Not cheating, but im stupid i suppose. Really, answer this for me. Why, really, do you even want billions of dollars to just go buy Salvos, Tempests, Volley Fires, Adrenaline Adjustments, etc? Just to say, ooh, i some inf? I don't get it.

Im in the 10s of billions and still fuss about spending 500mil or more for 1 recipe. I have 2 accounts worth of toons i routinely IO out and farm or do missions with my wife and a few friends. If i were to actually buy stuff at WW, as opposed to what i do, theres no way i would be able to "trick out" one toon the way i like to. Yes, theres ways to do it, but not within the way i play. (niches, flipping, crafting, merit conversions, etc. )


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Why, really, do you even want billions of dollars to just go buy Salvos, Tempests, Volley Fires, Adrenaline Adjustments, etc? Just to say, ooh, i some inf? I don't get it.
I pretty much build all of my characters on rares. Very, very few gets purples and even then they're the cheap purple sets like confuse. I don't really use purples because often they aren't the optimal choice for a certain goal or they don't offer enough of an increase in any stat to be worth the 10x cost of a rare set.

Quote:
Im in the 10s of billions and still fuss about spending 500mil or more for 1 recipe.
Same, that's why I get my Glad Armor uniques through A merits. It's also why I don't use purples. So why do I want to have billions? Because having that much inf enables me to complete just about any build with rares, and also get those elusive purples the very few times I want them. There's also the thing that influence is so easy to come by, I might as well get it. All I need to do is place my bucket next to WW and empty it every day.


- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

I collect inf so that when I populate Basilisk's Gaze, I can get the level 30 quad, so I get some decent bonuses along with my recharge bonus. And so that every character I make can have a kismet +to-hit.


 

Posted

I use mostly the cheap purples too on my trollers and dom. My other toons i like to use 2. The damage and dam/rech, then franken the other 4 slots. That way i can maximize the damage AND get good end recovs.

I mainly get my rech from lotg 7.5s. Two of those are way cheaper than purple sets, and now with inherent fitness, its so much easier to find mule slots for them. That way i can spam the hardest hitting attacks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Not cheating, but im stupid i suppose. Really, answer this for me. Why, really, do you even want billions of dollars to just go buy Salvos, Tempests, Volley Fires, Adrenaline Adjustments, etc? Just to say, ooh, i some inf? I don't get it.
Flexibility. I do use purples and PvPOs in my builds, but even when the builds are done I tend to cart around 1-3B on each character, because then, if I want something for that character that money can buy, I can just plop down a big wad of money and have it.

If I actually do something like that, I only do it because I intend to actually play the character some. (Either I want to experience the new shiny I just bought, or I wanted to play the character anyway and the new shiny is some QoL improvement.) That means I have a chance to earn back the bank roll I spent from that character.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
The "GOOD" sets that people actaully WANT in this game are very expensive. NOT JUST PURPLES....

Go buy a full set of Kin Coms, Numinas, Miracles, LotG, etc. and let me know how little you got it for. The whole set. Go ahead, i'll wait. Noone wants air bursts, serendipity, and plenty of other sets. They may as well delete them from taking up space. Who actually goes to WW to get them for their builds? Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.
I've actually slotted air bursts and serendipity sets. But actually, I've been constructing (meaning actually buying and slotting) money is no object all out builds for I19 recently, so I actually do have some recent perspective on this. Across an entire build, a money is no object build can cost billions. Probably will. But does that mean any one *set* will cost a billion inf? Almost never, except certain few. Not even all purple sets will cost that much.

Take my Ill/Rad. She slots a lot of "popular" stuff and purples. Its not complete yet, but she does slot five of the six coercives (all but confuse/end). That cost me about 300 million total: recipes, salvage, crafting. The whole set would have cost less than 400. She slots four of the Bazilisks, the entire set would have cost just a couple hundred. Half of it for one enhancement in the set (acc/end/rech/hold). My complete set of Gaussians cost less than a hundred million. That's not an unpopular set. She also slots Unbreakable constraint, which is just about a billion inf set if you try to buy it instantly, but honestly I paid only about 650 for five of the six (I don't slot hold/end).

I also slot glimpse of the abyss which is nowhere near a billion a set, decimation which is also nowhere near, and performance shifter which is nowhere near.

I've never slotted a full set of Miracles before: not sure why I would. But a full set of Miracles seems to be going for about nothing right now: exxcept for the proc the rest of the set will set you back less than twenty million. The proc depends on level: the low one is going for about 160 million-ish. Kinetic Combat is also not a billion if set. It only has five members, but the combined set is around 350 million right now. Numina is also a set where the proc dominates the price of the set. If ever you watned to slot the entire set, you can do that for a couple hundred million *including* the proc.

Not even LotG is an expensive set in total. Defense is right now 50 million-ish. Def/End/Rech 15 million. Def/End 30 mil. +Rech is 100 to 200 million. Everything else is worthless.

Some purple sets cost a billion or more. Some PvP IOs cost a billion or more for one. But its not true that all the "valuable" sets are billion inf sets. Mostly, we're talking about purple offense (melee, range, PBAoE, AoE). Nothing else, not even the most valuable defensive sets, will generally set you back anywhere near a billion inf.


This is the build my Katana/Invuln currently has right now. Its a build that dates back literally to I9, and I never even finished it: you'll notice the slots aren't even all filled. Its still a very strong, viable build. Except for the Lysos, which used to be much cheaper back in the day, you could probably build this with pocket change people have left over after building a multi-billion inf build. You know what's sad? The build actually comes close to soft-capping elemental with just one target in invincibility and I never bothered to even put defense IOs as fillers into the defense powers. Duh.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Katana Kate: Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Legacy Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx(3), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(3), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg(5), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(7), Aegis-ResDam(9), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(9)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(11), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(11)
Level 4: Flashing Steel -- Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(13), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(13), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(15), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Sciroc-Dam%(17)
Level 6: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), Empty(19)
Level 8: Dull Pain -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(19), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mrcl-Heal(21), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(23), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 10: Divine Avalanche -- HO:Lyso(A), HO:Lyso(25), HO:Lyso(25)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 14: Super Speed -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 16: Unyielding -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(29), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(29)
Level 18: The Lotus Drops -- Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(31), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(31), HO:Nucle(33)
Level 20: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(33), RgnTis-Regen+(33)
Level 24: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(34), EndMod-I(34)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), HO:Nucle(36)
Level 28: Invincibility -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37), LkGmblr-Def(37), Empty(37)
Level 30: Sting of the Wasp -- P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx(39), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(39), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg(39), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(42), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(42), HO:Nucle(42)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Empty(43)
Level 38: Unstoppable -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 41: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(46), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(46), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def(48), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Empty(48)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Empty(50), Empty(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 0: LEGACY BUILD



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Flexibility. I do use purples and PvPOs in my builds, but even when the builds are done I tend to cart around 1-3B on each character, because then, if I want something for that character that money can buy, I can just plop down a big wad of money and have it.

If I actually do something like that, I only do it because I intend to actually play the character some. (Either I want to experience the new shiny I just bought, or I wanted to play the character anyway and the new shiny is some QoL improvement.) That means I have a chance to earn back the bank roll I spent from that character.
Thats pretty much what i do. I was referring to the ones that keep loving to say how their toons use alot of the crap recipes but keep talking about how many billions they are trying to achieve. That's when i question their reasons. To me, it don't make sense.


 

Posted

@ Arcan, I know i said a billion per set. It may be a stretch for now. But it wouldnt be hard to argue that with the crazy inflation (supply/demand in CoH) over the last year that the "popular" stuff could be climbing to ever new heights, as it continues to do. I mean really, look at whats happened to those prices. Anything in the low millions has been hitting in the 100mil range. Inflation? That's a pretty steep inflation.

Like i said, i'd like to see an increase in recipe drops in missions and at various levels. So, say, a level 10 recipe could drop from a level 30 or 50 mission. Really, do some research on drop rates. It's easy for me to kill however many baddies in a farm run and not even pick up 3 recipes. Really, 3? Come on. And 2 of them were probably temp powers. lol.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorukira View Post
I wasn't specific enough.

This is the way I see it.
This game have X amount of player. Everyone of then get the same amount of Y drops while playing. So supply and demand shouldn't be so outrageous to the point player are going to buy Inf with real money to pay 5bill for a whole set.The market isn't "broken" is more like the players break it.Taking me to the point of knowing the basic of economics

If players knew the basic of economics I think this inflation wouldn't be.They would use the game to generate money. For that you will need drops, but you will sell or created those you want. Making ppl less depending in the market to get what the want, lowering demand and increase supply. It become a full cycle "balancing" the market. This is my opinion.

But actually everyone is just there in the market throwing their money b/c they want it "NAO!" That is the chaotic part for me.

I have taken advantage of this anyway when I get a lucky drop
One of the tenants of economic theory is that economic participants aren't required to understand economic theory to act in accordance with economic theory. In any system where the participants act in accordance with what they believe economic theory instructs them to behave, ironically that system will not obey fundamental economic theory.

The markets actually look very much like I would expect, and economic theory would predict, thinly traded, fluctuating demand, unpinned valuation exchanges would behave.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
@ Arcan, I know i said a billion per set. It may be a stretch for now. But it wouldnt be hard to argue that with the crazy inflation (supply/demand in CoH) over the last year that the "popular" stuff could be climbing to ever new heights, as it continues to do. I mean really, look at whats happened to those prices. Anything in the low millions has been hitting in the 100mil range. Inflation? That's a pretty steep inflation.
I wasn't arguing that inflation isn't occurring so much as the contention that all invention sets that are worth having cost a large amount of influence, while all the others are worthless. Actually, that only seems to be sometimes true. In other cases, as I've been updating my builds I've been sometimes dramatically, and sometimes pleasantly, surprised. Take PvPIOs. My MA/SR build eventually slots two partial sets of them. The Def and the +Res bonus ones are really pricy. But the rest of them, not really a problem. In fact a lot of PvPIOs are down right cheap.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf View Post
Price Caps on all goods in the game is the only thing I'd like to see.
This is such an excellent suggestion. Why aren't more people supporting this idea? I, for one, have been asking for years now for exactly this. My suggestion is 100 million, although a few genius others suggest 10M or even 1M as the cap.

RagManX


"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2

The economy is not broken. The players are

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Noone wants air bursts, serendipity, and plenty of other sets. They may as well delete them from taking up space. Who actually goes to WW to get them for their builds? Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.
I realize others have commented on this, but I just wanted to add a minor note. I don't know who is doing it, but I know there are actually quite a few people who buy a fair amount of the "junk" sets, as I have a few characters who have gotten rich just using the less-prized sets as the machination of their wealth building enterprises.

RagManX


"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2

The economy is not broken. The players are

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagManX View Post
This is such an excellent suggestion. Why aren't more people supporting this idea? I, for one, have been asking for years now for exactly this. My suggestion is 100 million, although a few genius others suggest 10M or even 1M as the cap.

RagManX
RagManX, I am little surprised you are not familiar with the arguments why this would not work. The two main ones are:

1) People would just sell everything really valuable outside of Wentworths.
2) Popular items that people sold within Wentworths would quickly get bought up. Then instead of not getting them because they cost too much, you couldn't get them because they weren't available. You are replacing one problem for another, while effectively penalizing the people who put time and effort into making Inf.

People keep trying to invent ways to stop a limited number of rare items from having a high price. Good luck with that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_G View Post
RagManX, I am little surprised you are not familiar with the arguments why this would not work. The two main ones are:

1) People would just sell everything really valuable outside of Wentworths.
2) Popular items that people sold within Wentworths would quickly get bought up. Then instead of not getting them because they cost too much, you couldn't get them because they weren't available. You are replacing one problem for another, while effectively penalizing the people who put time and effort into making Inf.

People keep trying to invent ways to stop a limited number of rare items from having a high price. Good luck with that.
But, if there were a cap to some items, it might be a reasonable price. Therefore there would be no real need to just keep trying to gain inf. Understand? If purples had a 200mil cap per, that means they would be semi high, semi low, but more easily obtainable thna 500-700 per. If people just want to make inf for no reason, thats on them, but if items were more affordable for everyone, theyd be no reason to sell off market.

Id like to see set bundles sold. Like a set of purples for 1bil or 2bil even for all 6 pieces. Maybe a "rare" store. Kinda like A Thomas Kincaid store.