How you would balance the Market?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by crayhal View Post
It takes about 2 months to accumulate enough A-merits to buy a PVP IO.
24 days gets you a PvP IO and one A-merit left over. You can get one every two days from tips, and one a day from converting merits, with a single character.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
24 days gets you a PvP IO and one A-merit left over. You can get one every two days from tips, and one a day from converting merits, with a single character.
I didn't include this option because I thought that from a profit standpoint, it reduces the overall profit.
Consider: 24*50 merits = 1200 merits
Assuming 250k inf per merit = 1200 * 250k = 300 mil inf
24*20 mil = 480 mil inf
Assuming the pvp IO sells on the market for cap:
2 bil - 480 mil - 300 mil = 1,220,000,000 or 1.22 bil

If sold out of market:
3 bil - 480 mil - 300 mil = 2,220,000,000 or 2.22 bil

The equivalent of 24 days of doing tips ONLY and exchanging A-merits for LOTG7.5 which sells for around 200 mil:
12 * 200 mil = 2,400,000,000 or 2.4 bil

When going for the Convert R-merits to A-merit route, the PVP IO must sell for at least 3.5 bill or higher.
In this case, I would recommend doing the LOTG7.5s because it could be sold every 2 days and the money could go toward IOs or more marketeering right away.


 

Posted

There are a few things I would do to balance the market.

1. Remove the restrictions of 5 tip missions per day. This would increase supply across the board of recipes/enhancements above 20. It make a big difference mid-level shortages.

2. Successful Master of xx badge runs reward a random purple IO. This would reduce purple costs, and give people a reason to attempt more difficult content. It would also reward players for doing more challenging content as opposed to doing what is best reward/time.

3. Rebalance PvP and create a CTF style game; also reduce the pvp drop rate from 1/60-70 rep valid kills to 1/30 rep valid kills. If you make a balanced, fun pvp game more people will participate. More participation = more supply. Single IOs going for inf cap once a week on the market, and 1.5x inf cap off market is totally unacceptable.

*** This is all my opinion. I'd also like to say that I know absolutely nothing about economics, in fact it was one of my lowest marks in college.

I think the problem lies not in the market itself or the players, but in the rewards system in place in CoH. It is one of the few games that does not adequately reward players for completing the most difficult tasks in the game. Everything being random dropped makes the market the only viable way to completely equip a toon. A-Merits were a good start, but the time frame on getting things is entirely too long and makes it impossible to complete a build a reasonable amount of time (assuming use of purples etc).


 

Posted

People pretty much always do best reward/effort. Increasing the rewards for difficult content won't change that, it'll just leverage it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxunS View Post
I think the problem lies not in the market itself or the players, but in the rewards system in place in CoH. It is one of the few games that does not adequately reward players for completing the most difficult tasks in the game.
I agree with this completely. I've suggested in the past increasing the drop rate for purples on AV's and GM's. I think the suggestion for the 'Master of x' TF's is excellent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
People pretty much always do best reward/effort. Increasing the rewards for difficult content won't change that, it'll just leverage it.
I think LuxunS is counting on that. I certainly am.


 

Posted

Heres a fix... IF random is random, then randomize EVERY drop that drops. Increase the drop rates to compare with AE tickets. That will get more people out of AE and into the game AND supply recipes at various levels where there are currently 0 and stabilize thte market. If nothing is done, then the devs are happy with most sets costing a billion dollars now.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
If nothing is done, then the devs are happy with most sets costing a billion dollars now.
"Most sets" cost a billion dollars?
I find this claim hard to believe. It just doesn't at all jibe with my in-game experience. I think that at least half of the sets cost less than 166,666,667 per enhancement.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Heres a fix... IF random is random, then randomize EVERY drop that drops. Increase the drop rates to compare with AE tickets. That will get more people out of AE and into the game AND supply recipes at various levels where there are currently 0 and stabilize thte market. If nothing is done, then the devs are happy with most sets costing a billion dollars now.


I can only assume you actually mean "Most sets with excellent Set Bonuses which I happen to want" because most sets don't come anywhere near costing a billion.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
People pretty much always do best reward/effort. Increasing the rewards for difficult content won't change that, it'll just leverage it.
Which they've decided to do with these new weekly task force targets where you get double the rewards once per character for said task force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Heres a fix... IF random is random, then randomize EVERY drop that drops. Increase the drop rates to compare with AE tickets. That will get more people out of AE and into the game AND supply recipes at various levels where there are currently 0 and stabilize thte market. If nothing is done, then the devs are happy with most sets costing a billion dollars now.
I think the reason you don't see mid level sets as often is people race to L50 and now that there is more L50 content coming that is ONLY level 50, that's just going to get worse. Levels in sets imo is the real problem here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post


I can only assume you actually mean "Most sets with excellent Set Bonuses which I happen to want" because most sets don't come anywhere near costing a billion.
That too can be a problem. There are so many sets that are pure crap or mostly crap that people just don't slot them. Going through and removing junk like debt protection from a set and adding in stuff people desire more (rech, def, dmg boost etc..) would help these weak sets get used.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
That too can be a problem. There are so many sets that are pure crap or mostly crap that people just don't slot them. Going through and removing junk like debt protection from a set and adding in stuff people desire more (rech, def, dmg boost etc..) would help these weak sets get used.
If sets were easier to acquire and craft at lower levels, or if we had to spend more time at lower levels then the debt protection would be more useful.
But finding and crafting lower level recipes can be a real pita. And why bother with a pita @ lvl 25 when you'll be 50 by the end of the week?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_G View Post

What did you think was chaotic?

I agree with you on the “no way to fix it.”

What do you think would happen if the players did know the basics of economics?
I wasn't specific enough.

This is the way I see it.
This game have X amount of player. Everyone of then get the same amount of Y drops while playing. So supply and demand shouldn't be so outrageous to the point player are going to buy Inf with real money to pay 5bill for a whole set.The market isn't "broken" is more like the players break it.Taking me to the point of knowing the basic of economics

If players knew the basic of economics I think this inflation wouldn't be.They would use the game to generate money. For that you will need drops, but you will sell or created those you want. Making ppl less depending in the market to get what the want, lowering demand and increase supply. It become a full cycle "balancing" the market. This is my opinion.

But actually everyone is just there in the market throwing their money b/c they want it "NAO!" That is the chaotic part for me.

I have taken advantage of this anyway when I get a lucky drop


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
Which they've decided to do with these new weekly task force targets where you get double the rewards once per character for said task force.

I think the reason you don't see mid level sets as often is people race to L50 and now that there is more L50 content coming that is ONLY level 50, that's just going to get worse. Levels in sets imo is the real problem here.
Quote:
I can only assume you actually mean "Most sets with excellent Set Bonuses which I happen to want" because most sets don't come anywhere near costing a billion.
That too can be a problem. There are so many sets that are pure crap or mostly crap that people just don't slot them. Going through and removing junk like debt protection from a set and adding in stuff people desire more (rech, def, dmg boost etc..) would help these weak sets get used.
This is the last thing I want to happen to be honest. Why would I want the sets I use as my bread-and-butter 1-50 slotting for any of the alts I make to suddenly go up in demand?

The whole attraction of them is how darn cheap they are, because everyone is off chasing things like Positrons Blast and Kinetic Combat and leaving Air Burst and Focused Smite easily and cheaply picked up by me.

Quote:
But finding and crafting lower level recipes can be a real pita. And why bother with a pita @ lvl 25 when you'll be 50 by the end of the week?
Not everyone levels at a frenetic pace like that (30 to 50 in a week? I wish, I've a total of 2 50s from 5 years play)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by all_hell View Post
"Most sets" cost a billion dollars?
I find this claim hard to believe. It just doesn't at all jibe with my in-game experience. I think that at least half of the sets cost less than 166,666,667 per enhancement.
Considering the source of the claim I wouldn't believe it even if I didn't know it to be absurdly false.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2
most sets costing a billion dollars
Dollars? I doubt that.

Part of the "big price tag" problem is that people think in dollars (or any other currency) instead of influence. 100 million influence is a relatively small sum of currency whereas 100 million dollars or euros is way more than most families can earn in a lifetime.

Think in influence: how much one influence is worth, what your basic salary (1mil/hour) can get you, how much influence you need for a really good build compared to baseline (hint: not very much).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSorrow View Post
Dollars? I doubt that.

Part of the "big price tag" problem is that people think in dollars (or any other currency) instead of influence. 100 million influence is a relatively small sum of currency whereas 100 million dollars or euros is way more than most families can earn in a lifetime.

Think in influence: how much one influence is worth, what your basic salary (1mil/hour) can get you, how much influence you need for a really good build compared to baseline (hint: not very much).
Equating inf with real money is one aspect where the people who wail about the high prices always go wrong.

Their second error is typically "well I don't have that much inf so the price isn't fair" because they are so self absorbed that if any aspect of the game doesn't cater to their desires it is "broken" or "bad people are keeping me from what I want".

So your point actually needs to be not directed at the person but the playerbase overall. It doesn't matter if I only have 200 inf to rub together if 60% of the playerbase has a billion or more because the majority of the players will be setting prices.

In the how much a 50 can earn thread while the worst of us could solo 1M per hour in just inf that character is still in competition with the 10M per hour earners. They can either adjust their expectations or rail against reality.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorukira View Post
This game have X amount of player. Everyone of then get the same amount of Y drops while playing. So supply and demand shouldn't be so outrageous to the point player are going to buy Inf with real money to pay 5bill for a whole set.The market isn't "broken" is more like the players break it.Taking me to the point of knowing the basic of economics
There's an important factor in setting the price that's not covered in that brief explanation. Supply of money. The specific prices we get are what they are because of three factors - supply of a good (how many are available for sale per unit time), demand for a good (how many people want the good - you have to out bit other people if you want to be served sooner), and how much money do they all have.

There's a huge amount of money available to level 50s in specific, just from playing the game. Someone like me who prefers to play IO'd 50s most of the time is capable of generating 100s of millions of inf per week without even touching traditional farming. People who don't play 50s much don't generate as much money, and so they don't compete as well with people like me unless they turn to other means of earning that money, of which learning to use the market is really the main one. Is this "imbalanced"? I can think of different ways to do it that I think would be ... friendlier.

Quote:
If players knew the basic of economics I think this inflation wouldn't be.They would use the game to generate money. For that you will need drops, but you will sell or created those you want. Making ppl less depending in the market to get what the want, lowering demand and increase supply. It become a full cycle "balancing" the market. This is my opinion.
That's just increasing supply. For better or worse, I suspect the devs don't really want to do that in bulk. Sure, it will lower prices, but what's more important to the devs - prices on the market, or how fast the player base adopts IOs on all characters? I think it's a bit surprising that people feel it should be so much easier to obtain IOs when the devs semi-regularly march out the claim that the game is not balanced assuming people have them. If they increase supply of IOs significantly enough to really drop prices, that assumption goes out the window.

Quote:
But actually everyone is just there in the market throwing their money b/c they want it "NAO!" That is the chaotic part for me.
That gets back to the inf supply bit. People who are doing that are doing it because they either have so much money they know they can afford that, or know that they can break their bank and earn it back in short order. They throw huge amounts of inf around because huge amounts of inf mean nothing to them - they consider it relatively easy to obtain. The biggest "imbalance" is between people like that and people not like that. There's an immense wealth gap created by playstyle preferences. I think it's possible to reduce the number of things that contribute to that, but I think it's impossible to change completely. Even if there was no difference in how much inf per +0 critter a level 1 and a level 50 earned, an IO'd 50 can take on a hell of a lot more critters per unit time than a level 1 at a lot more than +0. But today a 50 earns hundreds of times more even for just one +0 critter.

Edit: The long and short of it is that the devs can change how all this works by changing two things. One is supply, which has strong, fairly direct balance implications. The other is "monetary policy" - how much inf we create, how much inf stays in the system, and how it's distributed among players.


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Posted

I think what many of you forget, is that this is a videogame.

Honestly, I think NOTHING of overspending and dropping stupid amounts of inf.* to get what I want asap because:

  • ITS PLAY MONEY
  • I CAN MAKE MORE FAST
  • I HAVE MULTIPLE BILLIONS OF IT.
There is no one to leave my estate to when I die.
There is no children or spouses to take care off.
There is no social or sexual prestige for attaining large amounts of in game cash.

So I spend is carelessly and willy nilly.


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


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Posted

If the Devs wanted to get rid of inf. they could put 1 of everything up on the market for 1 influence once a day and toss the inf. That would remove inf and provide recipes in every IO level for the mid level guys. If they see a surplus in an area they could have logic to skip putting 1 in or buy up the excess above some arbitary number at 10 inf above vendor rates.


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Posted

INF/Dollars.... = the same thing in this game. How about being useful and reply with a logical reason to help and not try to be smart, because frankly its not working....


The "GOOD" sets that people actaully WANT in this game are very expensive. NOT JUST PURPLES....

Go buy a full set of Kin Coms, Numinas, Miracles, LotG, etc. and let me know how little you got it for. The whole set. Go ahead, i'll wait. Noone wants air bursts, serendipity, and plenty of other sets. They may as well delete them from taking up space. Who actually goes to WW to get them for their builds? Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.


 

Posted

The sets I use most are Crushing Impact, Thunderstrike, Red Fortune, and Doctored Wounds. I can pick up a set of any of those for under 10 million inf easily. Also, I use Air Burst frequently for frankenslotting. I pay a moderate amount for a moderate increase in performance, and then I save for big-ticket items for another moderate increase in performance.

A billion inf is just a number. Inf has no fixed value on the market. In fact, the less one inf is worth, the easier it becomes to achieve the level of performance that the game was designed for, because NPC vendors never raise their prices for SOs, while you can get more and more inf by selling drops on the market. I remember when it was hard to afford SOs; now I don't even think about it.

My definition of market health has less to do with prices, and more to do with availability. I'm not worried that rare, valuable items cost a lot of inf; I'm worried that rare, niche-value items aren't available at all.


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Posted

When I started my bots/traps, I really wanted rocket boots, because they went with the costume. I looked, and I simply couldn't afford them.

Early on, I took someone's advice to roll for recipes with merits or AE tickets, and I got a random recipe, and went to craft it, and discovered that I couldn't afford the rare salvage part.

But then, back then, I thought it was amazing that one time I got 5000 inf for selling something, I think it was brass.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.
To be fair, there's a whole lot of build pr0n on the forums.


 

Posted

Builds on the forums are extremely frequently builds that have no price ceiling. They are "dream" builds in that sense.

Even for players who have no intention of building such things, those builds are informative. You can go a long way replacing the gold-plated platinum pieces of those builds with, say, copper, and still have a pretty damn effective build.

That said, I see plenty of build requests with stipulations like "no purples" or some other way of saying "don't make it too rich for my blood", and I've never seen a thread with reasonable traffic not comply.


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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
INF/Dollars.... = the same thing in this game. How about being useful and reply with a logical reason to help and not try to be smart, because frankly its not working....
Inf != Dollars. At least it isn't to me, I don't know if you think 1 dollar is worth 1 inf, but I certainly don't.

The thing is, I bet many people experience a sort of price shock when they enter the WW for ubah lootz. They see the price tag and think one billion dollars, I see one billion units of play money. Guess which one of us is more shocked by the price? The situation is very similar in many board games, take Monopoly for an example. For most people it's not problematic to spend hundreds of units of play money during a session of that game while they would never do that with real money. This game just adds a few zeroes to the end of those hundred units of play money.


Quote:
The "GOOD" sets that people actaully WANT in this game are very expensive. NOT JUST PURPLES....

Go buy a full set of Kin Coms, Numinas, Miracles, LotG, etc. and let me know how little you got it for. The whole set. Go ahead, i'll wait. Noone wants air bursts, serendipity, and plenty of other sets. They may as well delete them from taking up space. Who actually goes to WW to get them for their builds? Go ahead and look at the sub forums and find a build posted where people want them in their builds.
Frankly, I'd call anyone who claimed all those builds were actually completed within the game deluded. I make builds like that all the time, but end up abandoning the character it was planned for or switching the build focus. Sometimes even making a cheaper version of the build because I don't like the character enough.

As for full sets of Kinetic Combat, Numina, etc., you can get those for very little compared to their "market worth" if you're patient. I do TFs and get my R merits and don't roll them all at once, instead I convert them to A merits and roll them 50 at a time that way. It gets me better returns, but takes a bit longer. Often I get rare IOs I need, sometimes I don't, and what I don't need I sell. Patience goes a long way in making builds affordable.

You want rare IOs? Well, you can either have the build at a low cost or right now. You can only pick one of them.


- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein