How you would balance the Market?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-25 18:30 in The Market and Inventions
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I'd be in for the profits, but to be honest, it would hurt item availability EU side so much I don't want it |
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Ah Jim, welcome to the market forum. Actually Rag knows exactly what would happen and how a true blackmarket would spring up. That is exactly why he wants it.
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I can just see huge moneybags and piles of cash exploding out of foes you've defeated and everyone scrabbling around trying to snatch them all up...so heroic! lol
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It's a good thing we're not playing Diablo, or we'd have to leave piles of it all over town.
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This is a really cute post |
Originally Posted by Jim_G
RagManX, I am little surprised you are not familiar with the arguments why this would not work. The two main ones are:
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Yes, there would be. It's called supply vs. demand. If the item is extremely rare and yet extremely desirable, making people sell it for like 200M means that everyone with 200M will try to buy one, but there's no way that everyone with 200M will get one.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
If people just want to make inf for no reason, thats on them, but if items were more affordable for everyone, theyd be no reason to sell off market.
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This is exactly the situation we have with the PvP +defense unique, except the cap is 2B inf. More people have 2B inf and want that proc than there are procs available. You can put up a 2B bid and wait weeks without getting one. I know this, because I did it.
Putting items in a store is not a price cap. Putting items in a fixed price store doesn't just set their price, it increases their supply. I understand you also do want supply of some things to increase, but that's adds a completely different dimension to the discussion - power creep across the broader player base.
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I agree. That's why i keep saying the drop rate sucks. I ran a ton of farms earlier and pl'd 2 toons to almost 30. I got 1 orange on my alt. It was a Respec, but still. 1? And on the farmer, i got 6. A couple were temps even. Random is random, but how many kills would you guess i made on say 10 BM runs for under 10 invention recipes? Was killing +3x8 w/bosses. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yes, there would be. It's called supply vs. demand. If the item is extremely rare and yet extremely desirable, making people sell it for like 200M means that everyone with 200M will try to buy one, but there's no way that everyone with 200M will get one.
This is exactly the situation we have with the PvP +defense unique, except the cap is 2B inf. More people have 2B inf and want that proc than there are procs available. You can put up a 2B bid and wait weeks without getting one. I know this, because I did it. Putting items in a store is not a price cap. Putting items in a fixed price store doesn't just set their price, it increases their supply. I understand you also do want supply of some things to increase, but that's adds a completely different dimension to the discussion - power creep across the broader player base. |
Personally, i'd love to see some stuff in a store. Simple. Price it however you want, but give us a chance to get what we want, when we want it at the level we need it. All this put a bid and wait for weeks if ever (depending on how or what someone wants for it) is really getting old for some peeps. Theres more to this game than making inf. I love to IO toons, it's what i do. But i don't like having to deal with other people and if it's the only way we can get stuff, it sucks. IMO, of course. One reason is because "desirable" in this game hurts just as much as the "rarity".
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The prices are already reasonable. There are reasons why the prices are the way they are.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
But, if there were a cap to some items, it might be a reasonable price.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
If purples had a 200mil cap per, that means they would be semi high, semi low, but more easily obtainable thna 500-700 per. If people just want to make inf for no reason, thats on them, but if items were more affordable for everyone, theyd be no reason to sell off market.
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Even though they ostensibly have "no reason" to do so, people to come to the forums and advertise their wares for over cap.
Is it that they don't realize that there's no reason to do so?
Or is it that they DO have a reason to do so that you don't acknowledge?
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The Crucible functions somewhat like this already iirc.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Personally, i'd love to see some stuff in a store. Simple. Price it however you want, but give us a chance to get what we want, when we want it at the level we need it.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
But i don't like having to deal with other people and if it's the only way we can get stuff, it sucks.
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I would do away with the market 100%. While it's great for making money, it is driven by human greed and, say what you will, running into the very real-life concept can be downright unfun in what is supposed to be a game.
I would instead implement something akin to what Guild Wars has for runes. That is to say, I would set up a few npc's to whom you can sell all that fancy salvage and recipes for realistic prices. And, based on how much gets sold to these vendors, therein lies the price for which you buy/sell.
No longer would there be common salvage selling at 500k with 2000 for sale, and 100 bidding. Purples would remain expensive. It's the best solution to take out the human greed factor and replace it with supply/demand standards.
get rid of merits, tickets, amerits and all other alternative currencies.
also drop weighting.
and add lots more stuff to buy.
that would work, you figure?
=P
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Unlike the desire for ultra-rare items which is entirely an altruistic thing.|
Originally Posted by kinaki
I would do away with the market 100%. While it's great for making money, it is driven by human greed...
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Originally Posted by kinaki
It's the best solution to take out the human greed factor and replace it with supply/demand standards.
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The game can be played and enjoyed with SOs. I know because I have done it and do it.
IO sets are only desired by the greedy.
If the greedy want to make money off one another who am I to stand in their way?
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This is not due to greed on the part of the sellers. This is due to laziness, acquisitiveness and the need for instant gratification on the part of buyers.|
Originally Posted by kinaki
I would do away with the market 100%. While it's great for making money, it is driven by human greed and, say what you will, running into the very real-life concept can be downright unfun in what is supposed to be a game.
. . . No longer would there be common salvage selling at 500k with 2000 for sale, and 100 bidding. |
I just don't get the rancor about this particular point. It's a red herring. If you don't want to pay 500K for common salvage, nothing requires that you do so. You can just run regular missions and salvage drops like mana from heaven. Save it in the bank, your base or in market slots. If that's too slow for you, spend a few minutes in AE, get tickets, roll randomly for the level of salvage you want for 8 tickets a pop.
If players simply boycotted high-cost common salvage and rolled their own instead of paying 500K each, the price would drop to reasonable values within hours. It's really that simple.
But obviously a large number of people don't think 500K is too much, and just pay the man the money to get their overpriced salvage NOW! Think of this as a laziness tax, and not price gouging, and you'll feel much better.
And about buying items from vendors:
There are very few things in the game that can't be bought outright with reward merits, alignment merits or AE tickets. Basically, only Hamidon Origin enhancements and certain inspirations.
Many people are saying they don't really care how much things would cost from vendors, they just want the option to buy stuff at a fixed price. But we already have that option right now (with merit vendors on every street corner and the Crucible and Fort Trident). And people are still complaining.
So, here's the thing: if the devs made everything available at vendors the prices would certainly be much, much higher than what you can get them for on the market. This is based simply on the fact that the merit prices are so high. The 200+ merits that rare recipes sell for would probably take you weeks of running regular missions to accrue.
The problem with the market really seems to be that some people don't like to see other people do something they perceive as wrong, and want to put a stop to this evil. I'm all for stomping out evil, but the only people who are being hurt by overpriced common salvage are those who are too impatient to take a few minutes to get it themselves.
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And it's not actually clear that they're being hurt.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
I'm all for stomping out evil, but the only people who are being hurt by overpriced common salvage are those who are too impatient to take a few minutes to get it themselves.
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It also seems sometimes that all these people do is PL to 50 and then buy stuff. I'm loving the price of mid-level salvage when I'm playing a mid-level character. I love that purples are so expensive when one drops for me. When you play, you get stuff, and you can sell that stuff to impatient lazy people for a lot of inf.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The problem with the market really seems to be that some people don't like to see other people do something they perceive as wrong, and want to put a stop to this evil. I'm all for stomping out evil, but the only people who are being hurt by overpriced common salvage are those who are too impatient to take a few minutes to get it themselves.
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If you don't play, PL to 50 then continue not to play and sit around the market whining that you can't afford to IO out your uber build in a fraction of the time it took you to PL to 50....well you'll get no sympathy from me. You found a way to speed up the process of leveling, you can find a way to speed up the process of acquiring stuff if having it NAO means that much to you.
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I'm sure you didn't actually write what you meant to say, there, but it still made me smile :-)
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Originally Posted by kinaki
It's the best solution to take out the human greed factor and replace it with supply/demand standards.
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As one of the people who was getting 500k for things with 2000 for sale and 500 bidding: I listed over a hundred items at 1 inf each. It is not my fault, in any way, that people were bidding 500k and up.
1) The merit system sucks. So dont toss that out as just a way to say get purples through it. Everyone ive seen refer to purples via merits agree it sucks.
2) The market is ran thru greed as much as laziness or whatever other excuse/reason you can try to blow smoke to cover up. Noone makes the seller list the item at 500mill except the last 1 sold for that (or whatever the "going rate" is. I just sold a steadfast res/def for 40mil inf. I listed it for 2,223. I have no need to list stuff for a higher amount just for the sake to make an extra mill.
2b) Wanting to IO toons has not 1 thing to do with greed. Just like using SO's wouldn't be considered being ungreedy. IOs make the most out of the toons in a way SOs can't. Nothing to do with greed. It's just wanting to make a high performing toon.
3) Speeding to 50 has nothing to do with not affording items. If i play a toon to 50 via missions, theres NO WAY in heck, you can afford to IO it once it hits 50. Not without making inf the same way you would via a PL.
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Well, then I guess your attitude has left you high and dry waiting on the RNG. If you ever change your mind, there are other ways.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
1) The merit system sucks. So dont toss that out as just a way to say get purples through it. Everyone ive seen refer to purples via merits agree it sucks.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
2b) Wanting to IO toons has not 1 thing to do with greed. Just like using SO's wouldn't be considered being ungreedy. IOs make the most out of the toons in a way SOs can't. Nothing to do with greed. It's just wanting to make a high performing toon.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
If i play a toon to 50 via missions, theres NO WAY in heck, you can afford to IO it once it hits 50. Not without making inf the same way you would via a PL.
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This thread and the hundreds of others like it goes nowhere. Any sensible idea gets shot down by the vocal minority who think everything is peaches and cream as they play their AH minigame.
CoX is unique among mmo's in that every single attainable item is known - there are no random attributes [to enhancements]. Along these lines, yes, you can indeed just have everything available from an npc vendor whose prices fluctuate in realtime as varying amounts of supply get sold to it. If you don't like this "middle-man" acting to stabilize the market, then you're likely just out to make a buck at the expense of others.
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"at the expense of others"?|
Originally Posted by kinaki
If you don't like this "middle-man" acting to stabilize the market, then you're likely just out to make a buck at the expense of others.
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There're no victims here.
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You can't get purples through merits. Or did you mean a-merits? Yes, everyone agrees it sucks, especially since you can spend all those a-merits you would have needed for just one purple on something else, sell it, and buy a whole set of purples with the proceeds.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
1) The merit system sucks. So dont toss that out as just a way to say get purples through it. Everyone ive seen refer to purples via merits agree it sucks.
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But again, you have to sell. Do you not sell anything? Is that what the problem is?
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| 2) The market is ran thru greed as much as laziness or whatever other excuse/reason you can try to blow smoke to cover up. Noone makes the seller list the item at 500mill except the last 1 sold for that (or whatever the "going rate" is. I just sold a steadfast res/def for 40mil inf. I listed it for 2,223. I have no need to list stuff for a higher amount just for the sake to make an extra mill. |
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| 3) Speeding to 50 has nothing to do with not affording items. If i play a toon to 50 via missions, theres NO WAY in heck, you can afford to IO it once it hits 50. Not without making inf the same way you would via a PL. |
Or by IO do you mean create a multi-billion inf build with purples and PvP IOs within days of hitting 50? Yeah, the devs don't want you to do that.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
"at the expense of others"?
There're no victims here. |
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Yeah, if you're greedy you might buy something besides purples and then sell them to buy purples.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You can't get purples through merits. Or did you mean a-merits? Yes, everyone agrees it sucks, especially since you can spend all those a-merits you would have needed for just one purple on something else, sell it, and buy a whole set of purples with the proceeds.
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People in this game are constantly lusting after wealth and power. It's sad, sad sad, and immoral.
Libido dominandi indeed.
If only people would just be happy with SOs. Then the market would be fixed.
Instead they lust after power so strongly that they become convinced They need more and more and more power.
They want the Ultimate Power!
And to gain the Ultimate Power you must pay the Ultimate Price. Er...uh...I mean you should only have to pay Costco discount prices to gain the Ultimate Power. Even though there are thousands of people competing for Ultimate Power we shouldn't have to pay like we were competing for Ultimate Power against thousands of others. We should be able pay discount prices like we were buying toilet paper in bulk.
I think that may be the block that some have about the Market--they don't remember that it's a competition for goods.
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Hehehehe, you said economic. =)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One of the tenants of economic theory is that economic participants aren't required to understand economic theory to act in accordance with economic theory. In any system where the participants act in accordance with what they believe economic theory instructs them to behave, ironically that system will not obey fundamental economic theory.
The markets actually look very much like I would expect, and economic theory would predict, thinly traded, fluctuating demand, unpinned valuation exchanges would behave. |
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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Originally Posted by all_hell
Yeah, if you're greedy you might buy something besides purples and then sell them to buy purples.
People in this game are constantly lusting after wealth and power. It's sad, sad sad, and immoral. Libido dominandi indeed. If only people would just be happy with SOs. Then the market would be fixed. Instead they lust after power so strongly that they become convinced They need more and more and more power. They want the Ultimate Power! And to gain the Ultimate Power you must pay the Ultimate Price. Er...uh...I mean you should only have to pay Costco discount prices to gain the Ultimate Power. Even though there are thousands of people competing for Ultimate Power we shouldn't have to pay like we were competing for Ultimate Power against thousands of others. We should be able pay discount prices like we were buying toilet paper in bulk. I think that may be the block that some have about the Market--they don't remember that it's a competition for goods. |
To be honest, I didn't realize that you were not serious until after a few readings. My initial response was going to be something along the lines of "that word: ultimate. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
1) People would just sell everything really valuable outside of Wentworths.
2) Popular items that people sold within Wentworths would quickly get bought up. Then instead of not getting them because they cost too much, you couldn't get them because they weren't available. You are replacing one problem for another, while effectively penalizing the people who put time and effort into making Inf.
People keep trying to invent ways to stop a limited number of rare items from having a high price. Good luck with that.