City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

How you would balance the Market?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-25 18:30 in The Market and Inventions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
I'm not seeing any meaningful differentiation there.
Perhaps you are looking too hard.

 

Posted

@ Uber, when i say people, if you don't fit into that category, then don't assume i mean you. Simple. If i get offended by what someone says theres usually a reason. If not, i ignore it. I didn't say everyone, i said people and/or some people. Gah. And you say lotg got cheaper? I dont see that. Before i19 i bought 25 level 25 7.5 for under 100 mil. The last time i looked they were going for 150-200mil. How did they go down?

@ All_Hell, Theres nothing greedy in trying to buy something. If i go to get me some new nikes and i buy the last pair to use, that's not greedy. If i buy all 4 of the last pairs to let 3 sit in my closet, that's greedy. And i don't play monopoly.

I don't do alot of TFs to get merits. Not everyone has time to do that so we have to rely on other people (aka WW/BM). I work 10 hours a day alot of time then come home to 2 kids to help get homework, baths, snack before wife gets home for dinner. Then we have quality time. Read, watch tv together, or play. Then they go to bed and i get an hour with my wife before i have to go to bed to get up at 430 am. So, please, tell me where i could fit a TF in everyday of the week for merits. I can't so i solo farm/pl a pal or two when i can. Alot of afks in there. Then the weekend comes and i get to TF or farm or whatever. I guess for kids in school, retired, or people without jobs have plenty of time to get merits, A merits or whatever to avoid paying inf.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
@ Uber, when i say people, if you don't fit into that category, then don't assume i mean you. Simple. If i get offended by what someone says theres usually a reason. If not, i ignore it. I didn't say everyone, i said people and/or some people. Gah.
The point is that I'm proof that you can't claim everyone is doing that. I'm not offended, I'm trying to point out that you're making claims you can't possibly back up. Do we know some people use the market like that? Sure - a lot of them post here. But the tone of your entire line of thinking in this thread is that basically everyone is some sort of amoral shiester. I think that's a claim based on a feeling of victimization because you don't like how difficult it is to obtain some things than any clear evidence that it's actually the case.

Quote:
And you say lotg got cheaper? I dont see that. Before i19 i bought 25 level 25 7.5 for under 100 mil. The last time i looked they were going for 150-200mil. How did they go down?
I gave that information in pretty explicit detail in my post.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
The point is that I'm proof that you can't claim everyone is doing that. I'm not offended, I'm trying to point out that you're making claims you can't possibly back up. Do we know some people use the market like that? Sure - a lot of them post here. But the tone of your entire line of thinking in this thread is that basically everyone is some sort of amoral shiester. I think that's a claim based on a feeling of victimization because you don't like how difficult it is to obtain some things than any clear evidence that it's actually the case.

I gave that information in pretty explicit detail in my post.
Show me where i said everyone? 100-200 isn't down, unless im reversed.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
@ All_Hell, Theres nothing greedy in trying to buy something. If i go to get me some new nikes and i buy the last pair to use, that's not greedy. If i buy all 4 of the last pairs to let 3 sit in my closet, that's greedy. And i don't play monopoly.
Because those last four pairs are the last four pairs EVER and there will never be any more. Also, Nikes are the only shoes in existence and everyone must have them. You don't need any other kinds of shoes because Nikes are the best for everyone for every situation. All those other people can't buy a different kind of shoes, or wait for more Nikes to come in. We'll have to go barefoot forever, all because of your greed.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
But i don't like having to deal with other people and if it's the only way we can get stuff, it sucks. IMO, of course.
Why does this not surprise me?

If you really prefer to play a MMORPG or whatever the name is nowadays to a single player game, then you pretty much have to deal with other people.

'Cause I'm pretty sure that at least one of those M's stand for "multi-player".

Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
trying to get a single purple set (6 items) with amerits through just missions would take over half a year of real world time. The time to outfit a toon with just amerits, even without purples is insanely long in a game.
Just pointing out that the *only* time it would take you six months is if you decided to only run one character. Since you can have multiple characters on multiple servers all running tip missions, the time it would take would only depend upon how many characters you want to run per day. So, to get a full set, just six characters all running tips each day for a month. Once they get the purple, just email it to the character who needs it.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
@ All_Hell, Theres nothing greedy in trying to buy something. If i go to get me some new nikes and i buy the last pair to use, that's not greedy. If i buy all 4 of the last pairs to let 3 sit in my closet, that's greedy.
So everyone with more than one pair of shoes is greedy? Perhaps it's a matter of definition.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Show me where i said everyone?
Again, you didn't have to. Your tack in the conversation makes it easy to infer you mean most people. After all, if you didn't, why would any of this matter?

Quote:
100-200 isn't down, unless im reversed.
I'm not sure what the confusion is. I tried to make it clear that I went from selling them for 250M almost all the time and 300M sometimes to selling them for 150M almost all the time and 200M sometimes. 250M to 150M is down.

You're might be talking about the best price you can buy them at, but I'm talking about the best price I could consistently sell them at, crafted.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by all_hell View Post
So everyone with more than one pair of shoes is greedy? Perhaps it's a matter of definition.
I've gone on record as saying that no one needs more than two belts (one black, one brown) but I've proven myself wrong before.

Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

I'd like to ask one thing, eryq. If I only need one Item, but I buy two at a moderate price, then sell the other one to a Random Person at a markup because Random Person has to have it exactly this darn moment, it makes me greedy but not the other person?

I still don't understand how "I want(/need) that right now!" is not greed in a game where nothing is needed.

In fact, I don't understand how wanting to have anything special in this game (badges, set IOs, multiple 50s, etc.) is nothing else but greed. It's like little girls decorating their dolls, only that the goal here is to have the best doll/most dolls around. What's that if it's not greed, because dolls, as far as I know, are not needed for any real purpose but to make you feel good?

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

The way to fix the market: Gimmeh Mo Moneh!

No, seriously, it's not broken.

Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
Couple things here.

  1. Not everyone likes or can do task forces which is the only major supply of merits
  2. not all recipes are for sale with a-merits though most are
  3. trying to get a single purple set (6 items) with amerits through just missions would take over half a year of real world time. The time to outfit a toon with just amerits, even without purples is insanely long in a game.
These things need to be taken into account when talking about the market. It's not as simple as "I'll just go spend 400 merits" or whatever.
The correct thing to do is to use merits to get expensive things and sell them for the influence necessary to buy the things you want. Under that scenario, inflated prices actually operate in the player's favor, because not all items have inflated prices. In one example, and certainly not the most efficient one, a player could earn 35 alignment merits and use them to acquire one of the capped two billion inf IOs, sell it, and outfit an entire character with a multi-billion inf build. I doubt there are many builds that don't slot excessive purples (or some of the very expensive PvPIOs) that crosses the two billion mark.

In just a couple of days you could acquire several hundred million inf and complete a reasonable IO set build. And this is not explicitly because of the inflated influence numbers, but the more subtle point that some things are worth far more to the players than others, which means no matter what the absolute numbers are, its possible to get one thing with merits, and exchange that thing for many other things of lesser value that are still sufficiently powerful to create meaningfully strong builds. Its the difference in value that drives this, not inflation per se. When we allow players to value X as a hundred times more valuable than Y, we open the door to allow some players to expend a lot of effort to get a lot of Xs, and other players to expend a little effort to get one X and use it to get a whole lot of Ys.

And yet, a ten billion inf build is not a hundred times more powerful than a one hundred million inf build. The pursuit of that ultra-expensive but only moderately more powerful build allows other players much easier access to second tier builds.

Ironically, without the markets at all, you have the situation you mention: having to buy everything with merits. Doing so actually makes it collectively a little harder on everyone, because they lose the ability to trade what they don't want for what they do want: everyone ends up having to expend a little more effort than they might have otherwise. And the players that get squeezed the most are the ones in the middle: the ones that are just outfitting with SOs and common IOs aren't hurt much, and the ultra-rich making multi-billion inf builds will have the resources to work around the problem. The players that want to make moderate builds in the middle would have the most problems doing so with no player-driven economy to allow them to pass unwanted things downward and trade ultra-valuable things upward for leverage in getting what they can afford.

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Posted

First after Mathzilla.

Arcana is right; simply buying "moderately" expensive stuff (selling for 175,000,000) with AMerits and working toward your purples and other desired items is a great way to do things. Heck, I've been doing this for the past few months and have way more Inf now than I'll ever need, considering my "MasterCrab" build already has the five LOTG 7.5s squirreled away and the rest of the build needs pretty affordable stuff, like Enfeebled Operations and Touch of Death and Ribosome Exposures.

Saving up 35 AMerits? *Boggle*. Can't see myself ever doing that, seems too inefficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSorrow View Post

In fact, I don't understand how wanting to have anything special in this game (badges, set IOs, multiple 50s, etc.) is nothing else but greed. It's like little girls decorating their dolls, only that the goal here is to have the best doll/most dolls around. What's that if it's not greed, because dolls, as far as I know, are not needed for any real purpose but to make you feel good?
Just to address this on a tangent; my late father collected Royal Doulton figurines. He was crazy about them. I inherited the lot of them, and being of a somewhat appreciative sort kept them and have added to the collection through astute purchases. I now have several (think two large wooden bookcases with 4 shelves each) of them on display. Some of them are quite rare and could fetch a nice penny, and collectors have asked about them and been rebuffed.

Why? Well, they look pretty for one thing.

Of course, the knowledge I'm making someone bitter and jealous because of porcelain dollies is worth a lot more to me than the few thousand dollars I'd make form a re-sale.

You just can't put a price on some things "irl", unlike in this game.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
Saving up 35 AMerits? *Boggle*. Can't see myself ever doing that, seems too inefficient.
Depends on your priorities.

I've been slowly building up Hero Merits on my main scrapper since they were introduced, and I'm up to about 25 or so now. I don't need to convert them to inf or anything else because I'm not interested in a fully tweaked out build, and I sell any purple drops I get, so most of my 50's are inf capped just from that combined with time and patience.

I'm building up to 30 or so merits so that if I find an alt that I finally decide to properly IO, then should I decide I need a Panacea or Gladiators +def recipe, I can get it without spending absurd amounts of inf, all I'll be spending is my own time.

And yes, I probably could have had 30 merits easily a month or so ago if I'd bought them for reward merits and inf, but I like the feeling that I directly earned each and every one of them.

I like to be self-sufficient on things like that.

Different people play the game with a different emphasis

We now return you to your regularly scheduled market argument...

Warning:

The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.

 

Posted

Canine,

Are you doing 1 Convert per day/1 AM per two days?
I see you're on the Euro servers, are you able to TF it up or solo enough Merits per day to make this efficient?

It's not a bad route I guess if you have the patience for it, I just like having piles of inf to jump into when I get "home" to my base.

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Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes

 

Posted

1) To buy something to use is not greedy. To hoard, is. To buy up everything to mark it up for others, is.

2) eva_, if i go to Champs for some shoes, buy them to wear, that's not greedy. Or maybe if i buy food to eat, im greedy because i want to live, too, hmmmm. ???

3) Uber, again, i didn't say everyone.

4) Yomo, yes i have to deal with it to a point. That doesn't mean i have to like it. I also have the right to state my opinion. Just because it don't go in line with other opinions don't mean i can't talk about it. Maybe i should just post something like, " hey, look, i was able to flip this or buy 3 of these to make a profit". Man, id be so loved 'round here. lol. I don't fit a mold.

But since not of this has to do with the topic, ill offer my idea again to help with the items. Increase the drop rates. Anyone have anything positive to add to help the supply? Thought not.

Oh, and last night i ran on a team of 8 for 2 demon farms. Got 2..... 2! Inv recipes. A temp stun grenade and a perplex confuse. Hundreds of baddies killed = 2 recipes. Sounds sucky to me still....

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Uber, again, i didn't say everyone.
With that out of the way, you're completely missing the point of what I'm saying and why I'm replying. You aren't offending me at all, and I am not complaining that you somehow painted me with an overly broad brush.

One of the core complaints I'm taking from your posts is that the markets are driven by greed, and that this is at the core of the price escalation. Greedy people want more money/goods, so they intentionally and explicitly do things that inflate the prices of market goods.

My whole and only point is that, by virtue of my own example to the contrary, I'm proof that this is not clearly at the root cause of price escalation. I'm using that to question that whole tone in your replies - that one of the founding problems with the market is this one of "marketeer" greed. Does it exist and contribute? I think it does, and if that's all you're saying, then I think you're right, and I'm mistakenly arguing over nothing. If you really do think it's at the core of the "problems" with the market, then no, I disagree.

I know without a doubt that I do things that help raise market prices implicitly, even if I do so in a small way. Biggest, simplest example? I continue to pay more and more to have things like purples. I help empower other people to ask us to pay more for rare goods, because I go ahead and pay more when they do so. I think lots of other people are like me. I think that is why prices keep going up. The "greedy" people are just along for the ride, paddling the boat faster down the whitewater cascade of inf we're all rushing down.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
1) To buy something to use is not greedy. To hoard, is. To buy up everything to mark it up for others, is. I may need to get a dictionary for the uneducated.
I'm not really interested in what you think, I'm more interested in why you think what you think, so I'll repeat my question. How is wanting anything special (= better than SOs) to make your character better than others or what the game requires you to be not greedy? What's the great distinction between having a lot of inf and expensive sets?

It's a bit funny when you actively skip awkward questions, as well as rationalizing buying items not being greedy because they're for use. Uh, it's not greedy because that's how you'd like the world to work? Well, welcome to reality, it doesn't always work like you'd like it to do.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Actually, I think it would be intriguing to see the dictionary definition that would allegedly apply here.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine View Post
I'm building up to 30 or so merits so that if I find an alt that I finally decide to properly IO, then should I decide I need a Panacea or Gladiators +def recipe, I can get it without spending absurd amounts of inf, all I'll be spending is my own time.
As I'm fond of pointing out, real time > play monies.

Not saying your way of doing things is wrong- it's your time, not mine...as long as you're enjoying yourself everybody wins.

But it's vastly inefficient.

I don't understand why people get hung up on not paying 'ridiculous' prices, when you can earn tremendous sums by mixing a bit of know-how with a tiny investment of time. A billion is just a number in this game, it doesn't have any intrinsic value, you can rack up as many as you like.

I have no idea how many hours of play 35 a-merits represent, but I wager there are any number of approaches that would earn the same payoff for a much smaller time investment.

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

I went out of my way to procure a dictionary definition for greed, from www.thesaurus.com

greed (ɡriːd)

— n
1. excessive consumption of or desire for food; gluttony
2. excessive desire, as for wealth or power

Bold mine. Desire for high level IOs represent excessive desire for power, the game is balanced around SOs so anything past that is excessive. Marketeering activities represent desire for wealth.

Now, eryq, because I was so kind as to produce this piece of information, maybe you could produce the next bit. What exactly is the difference in the greed attribute of wanting to 1) have a lot of inf and 2) have expensive set IOs? Is it just that you don't like people who have a lot of inf through any other means than "honest work" like farming?

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
Are you doing 1 Convert per day/1 AM per two days?
I see you're on the Euro servers, are you able to TF it up or solo enough Merits per day to make this efficient?
Oh I *could* convert merits/inf. I'm just running Tips/Morality missions at between 2-5 per day, depending on how long I'm online and how many I feel like running. Like I said, I'm up to 25 Hero Merits now, I've spent one on a random roll to test my luck and the rest are just what I've accrued since GR went live. I'm in no hurry

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
1) To buy something to use is not greedy. To hoard, is. To buy up everything to mark it up for others, is. I may need to get a dictionary for the uneducated.
Hurrah! Insults!

This is a now slightly out of date (huge, 5mb) composite image of the stuff I was hoarding on my toons. (imageshack is playing up for me, so either I'm having connection issues, or imageshack is)

All of that stuff was MINE in so far as it dropped for me, and *I* decided not to sell it.

Yet that makes me greedy?

Seriously, insulting people is not a good way to get a pleasant reception pretty much anywhere.

:edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
As I'm fond of pointing out, real time > play monies.

Not saying your way of doing things is wrong- it's your time, not mine...as long as you're enjoying yourself everybody wins.

But it's vastly inefficient.

I don't understand why people get hung up on not paying 'ridiculous' prices, when you can earn tremendous sums by mixing a bit of know-how with a tiny investment of time. A billion is just a number in this game, it doesn't have any intrinsic value, you can rack up as many as you like.

I have no idea how many hours of play 35 a-merits represent, but I wager there are any number of approaches that would earn the same payoff for a much smaller time investment.
Oh, I know it's inefficient by a lot of standards. It suits me though <shrug>.

Just remember that I'm the idiot who inf capped two toons just from selling Generic IO's. Time and patience are my preferred routes to getting things <grin> (I've since inf capped about another three or so toons from generic sales, and god knows how many others jsut from selling off my accumulated purple recipes that I was just holding on to and was never going to use).

As to my aversion to paying out large lumps of inf for things? I think it's just a long ingrained habit from the several years playtime in game before I had huge lumps of inf at my disposal. Logically I know I could spend it, but something at the back of my brain screams 'NO!!!! Don't do it!! You might need it later!!!'

Warning:

The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canine View Post
Oh, I know it's inefficient by a lot of standards. It suits me though <shrug>.

Just remember that I'm the idiot who inf capped two toons just from selling Generic IO's. Time and patience are my preferred routes to getting things <grin> (I've since inf capped about another three or so toons from generic sales, and god knows how many others jsut from selling off my accumulated purple recipes that I was just holding on to and was never going to use).
As long as you're having fun it's none of my business. =P
Cheers!

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
1) To buy something to use is not greedy. To hoard, is. To buy up everything to mark it up for others, is.
Buying up everything is extremely difficult when people keep producing more stuff.

Quote:
2) eva_, if i go to Champs for some shoes, buy them to wear, that's not greedy. Or maybe if i buy food to eat, im greedy because i want to live, too, hmmmm. ???
Yep, you're greedy. You made an analogy that didn't make any sense, so I just went with it. Why do you think people hang onto stuff instead of just selling it? To look at how shiny it is? I'm willing to bet the number of people who do that is so small it doesn't make a dent in supply. People hang onto things because THEY EXPECT TO USE THEM. It's called being prepared, as per the motto of boy scouts and paranoid conspiracy theorists. I'm sure you've heard of it. Or are you the kind of guy who goes to the grocery store and only buys tonight's dinner, because you don't want to be greedy and buy more food than you need right now?

Quote:
Oh, and last night i ran on a team of 8 for 2 demon farms. Got 2..... 2! Inv recipes. A temp stun grenade and a perplex confuse. Hundreds of baddies killed = 2 recipes. Sounds sucky to me still....
Don't farm with a team of 8 then. Drop rates suck on teams, always have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
I don't understand why people get hung up on not paying 'ridiculous' prices, when you can earn tremendous sums by mixing a bit of know-how with a tiny investment of time. A billion is just a number in this game, it doesn't have any intrinsic value, you can rack up as many as you like.

I have no idea how many hours of play 35 a-merits represent, but I wager there are any number of approaches that would earn the same payoff for a much smaller time investment.
I did it once, and I'm not doing it again. It wasn't the cost so much as the lack of availability that prompted me to do it, but in the end it wasn't worth it. It started becoming a chore.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World