Accuracy WAS Nerfed
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 24:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by DreamsRazor
umm so was there a nerf or not? (ducks)
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There was. To AoE holds. Years ago.
Damn them!
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*snip*|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I think Bad_Dog pretty clearly stated that the cause of his conclusion is that he had been playing, and percieved that he had been missing more often. He posted another thread, previously, and was informed by the forumites that accuracy had not been nerfed. He was given an explanation that at the time seemed to be acceptable.
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I somehow missed that other thread... that's probably a good thing though. So the psychological perception was addressed then previously.
... also... *peers at own post* ... I dropped a sentence somewhere about Mid's UI being confusing. oh well.
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Yup. Lots of links were broken when the forums were updated. We try to fix whatever we find as we come across them. I've updated the links in the article with the ones you provided.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, I didn't realize until now that the links to all three reference articles for the attack mechanics wiki page were broken. Probably because of the forum move.
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Thanks.
The Players' Guide to the Cities
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In all fairness, this is a direct result of the "three minions = one hero" design, which was intended to be the LEAST powerful a hero would be. Most other MMOs design around a one to one philosophy, with boss level monsters REQUIRING a whole team. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This overwhelmingly offense-skewed perspective seems to be unique to City of Heroes, and its ingrained in the culture. Defense seems to be there just to defend against alpha volleys and allow scrappers to solo entire zones. Otherwise, if your defenses are doing anything at all, its probably because you don't have enough AoEs.
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The design is actually a fun one, and obviously very popular. But it has led to time consuming techniqes like Sniper shots and phasing -- and even Assassin Strikes -- becoming less useful in gameplay. Even the tradeoff between offense and defense among Tankers and Defenders is argued due to this. Sure a Tanker is the equivalent of six minions, but it still takes him as long as the Scrapper taking on two groups of three.
And that was a very interesting side tangent, there.
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I know this has been done to death, but it really could not be any more simple. Just multiply the first figure by 0.75 and you get the second figure. The first figure is the accuracy modifier, the second figure is the final hit rate. 120% of 75% is 90%.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Super Strength
Jab - before 100%, now 75% Punch - before 100%, now 75% Haymaker - before 100%, now 75% Hand Clap - before 80%, now 60% Knockout Blow - before 120%, now 90% Taunt - before 100%, now 75% Hurl - before 100%, now 75% Foot Stomp - before 100%, now 75% |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Keep in mind he thought that most players would not notice a 25% reduction in hitting enemies. Including the people who created the programs and formulas he was using. Twenty. Five. Percent. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
I know this has been done to death, but it really could not be any more simple. Just multiply the first figure by 0.75 and you get the second figure. The first figure is the accuracy modifier, the second figure is the final hit rate. 120% of 75% is 90%.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Actually it is true unless you fight +6 or higher enemies. Up through +5 enemies only get an accuracy bonus, not a higher to-hit value. Likewise, higher ranking enemies like bosses or AVs get accuracy bonuses but not to-hit boosts. Since accuracy is applied after defense, that means that 45% defense will reduce any +5 or lesser enemy to a 5% base to-hit chance. Their accuracy bonuses may well increase their final to-hit to 7.5% or even 10% or so, but that's still the absolute lowest chance to hit they can possibly have (since nothing can offset increased accuracy in PvE)... you can have 150% defense and it won't make them miss any more often.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Note this is why the common claim that softcapped defense works against 95% of attacks is not true, unless you only battle even level minions.
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Enemies with to-hit buffs, on the other hand, do require more than 45% defense to floor their chances of hitting you. But since only +6 or higher enemies get increased to-hit from level difference, in general this only matters for enemies with to-hit buffs which are relatively rare.
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No, that's whether or not 45% defense is really the soft-cap. Any defense beyond 45% is still redundant against +4's, because of the first clamp in the to-hit formula. However, that is before accuracy. After accuracy, those to-hit chances become (5*1.4) = 7% for minions, (5*1.4*1.15) = 8.05% for lieutenants, (5*1.4*1.3) = 9.1% for bosses and EBs, and (5*1.4*1.5) = 10.5% for AVs and GMs. Not 5%.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Actually it is true unless you fight +6 or higher enemies. Up through +5 enemies only get an accuracy bonus, not a higher to-hit value. Likewise, higher ranking enemies like bosses or AVs get accuracy bonuses but not to-hit boosts. Since accuracy is applied after defense, that means that 45% defense will reduce any +5 or lesser enemy to a 5% base to-hit chance. Their accuracy bonuses may well increase their final to-hit to 7.5% or even 10% or so, but that's still the absolute lowest chance to hit they can possibly have (since nothing can offset increased accuracy in PvE)... you can have 150% defense and it won't make them miss any more often.
Enemies with to-hit buffs, on the other hand, do require more than 45% defense to floor their chances of hitting you. But since only +6 or higher enemies get increased to-hit from level difference, in general this only matters for enemies with to-hit buffs which are relatively rare. |
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It seems remarkably pedantic to point that out. I wasn't making any comment about Bad_Dog's claims and whether or not they (or the responses to them) depended on hit-chance mechanics. I said only that the people responding were intimately familiar with those mechanics, which is relevant because it is the context which gives them the familiarity with the 75% base value for hitting even-level foes. You have the pedigree to have come about that value before the rest of the mechanics were understood (given that you educated most of us in them), but that doesn't invalidate the relationship most people have in knowing that value in the context of the larger hit mechanics ruleset.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It has nothing to do with mechanics.
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Really, was a response in the form of a correction needed there?
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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
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Actually, the Devs nerfed the random number generator with a quantum debuff -- your rolls are worse unless you observe them carefully.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Actually it is true unless you fight +6 or higher enemies. Up through +5 enemies only get an accuracy bonus, not a higher to-hit value. Likewise, higher ranking enemies like bosses or AVs get accuracy bonuses but not to-hit boosts. Since accuracy is applied after defense, that means that 45% defense will reduce any +5 or lesser enemy to a 5% base to-hit chance. Their accuracy bonuses may well increase their final to-hit to 7.5% or even 10% or so, but that's still the absolute lowest chance to hit they can possibly have (since nothing can offset increased accuracy in PvE)... you can have 150% defense and it won't make them miss any more often.
Enemies with to-hit buffs, on the other hand, do require more than 45% defense to floor their chances of hitting you. But since only +6 or higher enemies get increased to-hit from level difference, in general this only matters for enemies with to-hit buffs which are relatively rare. |
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
No, that's whether or not 45% defense is really the soft-cap. Any defense beyond 45% is still redundant against +4's, because of the first clamp in the to-hit formula. However, that is before accuracy. After accuracy, those to-hit chances become (5*1.4) = 7% for minions, (5*1.4*1.15) = 8.05% for lieutenants, (5*1.4*1.3) = 9.1% for bosses and EBs, and (5*1.4*1.5) = 10.5% for AVs and GMs. Not 5%.
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Except as a cushion for tohit buffs and -def, 45% defense is the soft cap for most game play.
Dirges
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Well, Arcana HAS repeatedly insisted that she 'fixes' people's hitrates by having them turn on logging or install herostats...|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Actually, the Devs nerfed the random number generator with a quantum debuff -- your rolls are worse unless you observe them carefully.
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... maybe there's something she hasn't told us.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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It was SO hard to pick just ONE part of this to sig. >: D
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fairness to geko, there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with what he said. The problem is really something that you couldn't predict, which is that for reasons not completely understood (at least by me), CoH players quickly and uncommonly came to believe, on average, three things that are not universally believed in other MMOs:
1. If you are facing too many things, its because you just aren't killing them fast enough. 2. If you aren't killing them fast enough, its your fault for not dealing enough damage. 3. If there isn't enough damage to kill everything faster than they can kill you, its the devs fault for not making enough damage available, because they hate us and have no idea that the point to a superhero genre game is to be massively overpowered relative to the game environment. This overwhelmingly offense-skewed perspective seems to be unique to City of Heroes, and its ingrained in the culture. Defense seems to be there just to defend against alpha volleys and allow scrappers to solo entire zones. Otherwise, if your defenses are doing anything at all, its probably because you don't have enough AoEs. I do not fault the devs for not seeing that one coming. I will fault any dev team in the future for not preventing it from happening ever again, because for all the good things in this game that happened by chance, that one cost us more than most players will ever know, but any dev team with a brain should know. Granted, the mechanics of Black Hole were problematic, but geko's statement itself is not totally off the wall weird. The devs saw a thirty second break as being a defefnsive advantage; the players saw it as an offensive disadvantage. |
@Roderick
I just glanced back in the thread and blinked at this.
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... Soloing content meant for groups of 20 or more?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It's also partly because it is really, really easy to mezz groups of enemies in this game with Holds and Stuns. IMO if we get a City of Heroes 2 the model for AoE mezzes should come from Ice and Electric Control rather than the hardline sets. I'll say nothing about the Control set with the immune-to-everything pets that has been soloing content meant for groups of 20 or more.
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Um, let's see. Mothership raid? No.. Hamidon? no.. Cathedral of Pain? No..
Unless you're talking about GMs, I can't fathom what you're referring to, and ... I'm sorry, but GMs are 'a beefy target' not 'content'.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Woah, accuracy was nerfed?
I'm quitting.
<.<
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Unless you're talking about GMs, I can't fathom what you're referring to, and ... I'm sorry, but GMs are 'a beefy target' not 'content'.
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Ok.
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Originally Posted by Largo
Best thread of the weekend..hands down.
And its only Saturday. |
This thread
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This is just what I was saying, which you quoted, so I guess you misunderstood?| Their accuracy bonuses may well increase their final to-hit to 7.5% or even 10% or so, but that's still the absolute lowest chance to hit they can possibly have (since nothing can offset increased accuracy in PvE) |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fairness to geko, there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with what he said.
... Granted, the mechanics of Black Hole were problematic, but geko's statement itself is not totally off the wall weird. The devs saw a thirty second break as being a defefnsive advantage; the players saw it as an offensive disadvantage. |
The offensive mindset is not what I was getting at.
The thing that I read as remarkable in his statement is that it was pure theory. It sounded like he had never tried to use the power, because in practice, it does anything but remove enemies from action for 30 seconds. In a large mob it can make some dark miasma defensive powers unusable while a few enemies that were not phased attack you with impunity, hidden behind the invincible ones.
It reminded me of some other dev in some other game, who had a habit of explaining decisions with similarly simplistic theorycraft. His most recent power review had to be rolled back because it was so universally panned, and was reintroduced later by another dev, complete with most of the best requested ideas.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
The thing that I read as remarkable in his statement is that it was pure theory. It sounded like he had never tried to use the power, because in practice, it does anything but remove enemies from action for 30 seconds. In a large mob it can make some dark miasma defensive powers unusable while a few enemies that were not phased attack you with impunity, hidden behind the invincible ones.
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I'm confused by this. Ranged powers pass straight through enemies between you and the target, phased or not. Enemies can't be "hidden behind invincible ones." Do you mean that they are hard to see and click?
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I think they're referring to being unable to reliably target the unphased and only the unphased enemies for Single Target attack powers. AoE's have less of an issue in that regard.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm confused by this. Ranged powers pass straight through enemies between you and the target, phased or not. Enemies can't be "hidden behind invincible ones." Do you mean that they are hard to see and click?
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If you're wasting attacks on phased opponents because you can't tell that they're phased, then all the power's really done is extend the fight by 30 seconds and annoy the players throwing attacks that are rewarded with 'UNAFFECTED' damage numbers.
At least, I think that's what was meant.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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If you've got several of the same enemy all bunched up together, and you know all but one of them is phased, how do you get the unphased one?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm confused by this. Ranged powers pass straight through enemies between you and the target, phased or not. Enemies can't be "hidden behind invincible ones." Do you mean that they are hard to see and click?
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Clicking gives no love, you just get whichever one it thinks is on top, and no way of knowing if that's the right one. Tab gives no love, because you still can't tell if that's the right one.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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One of the biggest annoyances of Black Hole is indeed that it's very hard to tell things are phased. Dark <Anything> effects tend to be subtle compared to most other powersets, because its effects are negative light instead of positive. Only the blackest of them stand out clearly.
No one I knew every had an issue with Black Hole anything like that Arcanaville described. My biggest problem with the power was that it just wasn't sufficiently necessary, because existing powers were generally better utility much more of the time. So is the problem with Black Hole, or Dark Miasma's other powers? Choosing powers is about prioritizing opportunity costs, and Black Hole always fell off the bottom of the list of available powers. It's not that it's completely useless, it's that DM's other tools mean you need that utility only excruciatingly rarely.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
umm so was there a nerf or not? (ducks)
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