Accuracy WAS Nerfed
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 24:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
oy.
So, OP, you have two options:
1. You are misunderstanding the data you're seeing.
2. There's a conspiracy between the devs and the rest of the playerbase to hide an accuracy nerf. Nobody will admit to anything, except *you.*
Which, logically, is more likely?
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Well, of COURSE the conspiracy between the devs and the rest of the playerbase. We've ALL known accuracy was nerfed for YEARS. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Which, logically, is more likely?
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Oh, and by the way, the forum logged me out while I was trying to post this, which of course is further evidence of the conspiracy.
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Thus my first post in the thread after reading the first page explaining everything and the replies to those posts. Besides, given the OP's forum handle, it had to be done. It was a moral imperative!|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
This reminds me of something my old boss said...
"Never try and teach a pig to ice skate. you only do two things. Waste your time and annoy the pig... " |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
oy.
So, OP, you have two options: 1. You are misunderstanding the data you're seeing. 2. There's a conspiracy between the devs and the rest of the playerbase to hide an accuracy nerf. Nobody will admit to anything, except *you.* Which, logically, is more likely? |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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You forgot an option:|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
oy.
So, OP, you have two options: 1. You are misunderstanding the data you're seeing. 2. There's a conspiracy between the devs and the rest of the playerbase to hide an accuracy nerf. Nobody will admit to anything, except *you.* Which, logically, is more likely? |
- 3. Nemesis Plot
I do have a question to pose to the original poster, Bad-Dog:
- Where did you get the idea that global accuracy had been changed to begin with?
From my point of view, if we, as the player base, can figure out where you got the idea to begin with, then perhaps steps can be taken to ensure that no other players make the same error:
- Was it something in the Wiki that is mistyped?
- Was it confusion in the MIDS user-interface?
- Was it something that is said in the patch notes?
- Was it something that somebody posted in the forums?
- Was it perceived behavior from how you feel like you are hitting in the game?
- Was it something somebody said in game?
22 "wrong" up to here
keep it coming
THERE WAS NO NERF TO ACCURACY! .... or was I to late for that? 
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Okay I have neither the time or the inclination to address everyone with dozens of comments all directed at me so let's reply to the generic overall point you all are making.
Side note: I'd appreciate it if we can cease the condescention. If we want to make this a school yard scrap, fine, I can be just as nasty. I didn't insult any of you, so let's keep this civilized. People are pointing out (Player Base Acc) .75 * (Power Acc) 1.0 = .75 ToHit I had stated using original power accuracy numbers then comparing them to MIDS "accuracy" we get 1.0 - .25 = .75 Accuracy After seeing that screenshot, from gameboy1234, I assume that when Mids says "Accuracy" for an unslotted power they really mean "ToHit". If that's the case then A) Mids has an error because a powers Accuracy and your chance ToHit are not the same things to players and then B) they math that some of you are pointing out works like you say it does. So, baring any contradictory evidence, I will concede for the moment that one of the variables I am using is suspect. And let's move that to a non-issue for the moment. I'm not saying the result is wrong, it simply means my source of one of the variables is incorrect. But I will clarify this in a sec. Accuracy reduction is not a myth. And I will be the first to acknowledge my own in-game testing seems to point that the "math" being presented works out correctly. The point of what I posted is that we noticebaly began missing suddenly, like 3, 4 and 5 times in a row and now requiring 2 accuracy enhancements or a higher level IO to compensate for it. I have been here since CoH Beta and this was never the case. Sure, there was always reasons to slot extra accuracy but not because you are missing consistently with a power of 100% and an Accuracy SO. Back to the math that some of you are throwing around. I said there was a 25% reduction in accuracy because I compared old values to Mids values. You guys are saying that same 25% accuracy reduction is because of a players default accuracy. Your formula and my formula may be different but we are both talking about the exact same number, a -25% accuracy to powers. The 75% player base accuracy you all brought up. This was not in my calculation since I only used the previous power numbers I had available and Mids. But since you rolled this out, let's play with it. 100% is the same as 1.0. 1 is one, and one is a whole. If I have a pie its "one" pie. If I cut it in quarters and give my girlfriend a slice, I lost 25% and still have 3/4's or 75% of a pie. Jab has an accuracy of 100% since it is intended to hit as often as most other things. A player base of 100% would mean it was intended to hit as often as anything else. A player base accuracy of 75% makes no sense at all unless it had previously been 100%, otherwise the number behind the ".75" would be 100%. For example, if everytime I baked a pie it was 7.5 ounces, I would say 7.5 ounces is a whole pie or 100%, not 75% because I could make them 10 ounces. If I am making 10 ounce pies and started making them 7.5 ounce pies, you would say I reduced my pies 25%. What you guys aren't seeing is that we are both acknowledging a negative reduction to a power while trying to say -25% is no reduction in accuracy. That's silly. The point of my post remains unchanged. Powers are -25%. Apparently, you all would rather try to convince me there is no -25% than believe that something like this could have been slipped by us. |
Base tohit for players attacking even con critters has always been 75%. Its specifically designed into the purple patch - both versions of it actually - which means not only has it been 75% since release, the devs have been *saying* its 75% since practically release. No attempt to hide that fact at all. This is something we all knew in June of 2004 if not earlier.
The change you're trying to convince us that just slipped by us is something we've all known to have been true since the beginning of time. It hasn't changed to be that, it was always like that.
As to your contention that accuracy was recently nerfed in a visible way, regardless of the mechanics surrounding such a nerf, I have a standing offer to analyze any proof of such a problem. Such proof can be collected by any player with zero effort: just turn on chat logging in your game client options and make sure that tohit rolls are being sent to at least one of your chat windows (the global one, say). If you are experiencing miss rates statistically improbable for your circumstances, the chat logs would have a permanent record of that fact.
However, I find that the act of turning on chat logging or loading herostats seems to fix the problem for pretty much everyone that does so. Fancy that. The offer nevertheless stands.
To be honest, I'm almost beginning to wish *one* of these problem reports would turn out to be related to an actual problem. The last time one of them did was a really really long time ago.
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My goodness.
B_D, please, you were mistaken. It's totally forgivable that you got this stuff mixed up. It's not rocket science, but it is kind of complicated. There was no nerf. You've got some of the people most knowledgeable about game's hit-chance mechanics that exist in the player community responding to you in this thread. They're correct here.
Think about it. If Mid's contained information showing the kind of discrepancy you're describing, and if the makers of Mid's really trusted their powers info enough to believe that discrepancy was valid, do you really think the makers of Mid's wouldn't have come to the forums posting about it? Or that someone using Mid's wouldn't have noticed by now?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
They DID disecretly "nerf" us... by adding super sidekicking. Anecdotally, the number of underpowered characters on high level teams has increased. It certainly seems like I have to work much harder now to keep the average PUG from splatting, and not just because the team members do stupid things (they always did that).
Accuracy? No, not really, always been that way.
Keep digging
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I think Bad_Dog pretty clearly stated that the cause of his conclusion is that he had been playing, and percieved that he had been missing more often. He posted another thread, previously, and was informed by the forumites that accuracy had not been nerfed. He was given an explanation that at the time seemed to be acceptable. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
[*]Where did you get the idea that global accuracy had been changed to begin with?
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After playing for a while more, though, he reached the conclusion that there was still something wrong, and went looking for a problem. By his own admission, he admitted that he started with the assumption that he was being intentionally misled, and the problem was being hidden. He looked over ParagonWiki and Mids, and THOUGHT he had found it. But it sounds to me like a self fulfilling prophesy, he went looking for a problem and didn't stop searching until he found it.
My note on all of this is that he said that he reached this conclusion because he was playing a new character. We all know about this issue, when you have been playing high level characters for a long time, and are used to strong SO slotting, returning to low level characters with the base to hit can be jarring. Even with the change to low level base to hit, to address specifically this problem, it can be annoying to "whiff" constantly in the 10-15 levels, when you are losing the level bonus, but haven't yet started slotting satisfactoraly with DOs. Even at 20, DOs can be frustrating if you find yourself having to choose between damage and accuracy.
So I don't think there's anything new here, the OP is just running into the same perception that accuracy has been nerfed that all players get when they start a new character after the release of a new issue. They think that since there is a new issue, and they are missing all the time, that accuracy MUST have been nerfed. It's a perception issue, because missing in a game is in and of itself innately frustrating. You notice all of the times that you miss, and it's human nature to think that that's happening more often than not missing.
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Actually, if you go back to the OP, you can see that he mentions another thread - which I recall as well - where he asked if Accuracy had been nerfed. I think it was in PQ.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
I do have a question to pose to the original poster, Bad-Dog:
From my point of view, if we, as the player base, can figure out where you got the idea to begin with, then perhaps steps can be taken to ensure that no other players make the same error:
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In that thread, several posters came in to go through the numbers and calculations and to advise him that the RNG was just that - random.
It appears that he does not quite understand that it is possible to have a string of "rolls" on a random number generator that lead to a perceptibly long string of "misses". From there, my conjecture is that he started researching and made a classic error - looking at your data only in the light that best supports your "hypothetical" position - which in this case is that the Devs nerfed Accuracy.
OP can correct me (and I'm sure he will) - but I do remember the prior thread on the topic where posters were advising loading Hero Stats and checking combat logs and trying to explain that a random number generator generally generates random numbers.
Edit - Rats! Jade Dragon beat me in posting the exact same thing.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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S'alright. |
Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Edit - Rats! Jade Dragon beat me in posting the exact same thing.
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It has nothing to do with mechanics. The OP sees that the unenhanced chance for a standard attack to hit an even con target is 75%, and he thinks it didn't used to be, so something must have changed some time.. But it always was that, so nothing has changed in that regard. And its never been a secret that it was 75%, because the devs announced that fact many times, including but not limited to discussions of the purple patch.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
My goodness.
B_D, please, you were mistaken. It's totally forgivable that you got this stuff mixed up. It's not rocket science, but it is kind of complicated. There was no nerf. You've got some of the people most knowledgeable about game's hit-chance mechanics that exist in the player community responding to you in this thread. They're correct here. Think about it. If Mid's contained information showing the kind of discrepancy you're describing, and if the makers of Mid's really trusted their powers info enough to believe that discrepancy was valid, do you really think the makers of Mid's wouldn't have come to the forums posting about it? Or that someone using Mid's wouldn't have noticed by now? |
Just for giggles, I dug up some of geko's posts from long ago regarding this topic.
geko mentions base chance to hit is 75% (and as the devs did in the past, he says "accuracy" colloquially, but the point is clear). Also, note geko's sig. - March 2005
geko says chance to hit a target with no defense with n archery attack - 1.16 acc - is 87% (75% * 1.16 = 87%). - November 2005.
Some place somewhere I think I have that really old post of geko explaining the accuracy of Gale, which I think predates both of those posts above, but I think it was purged and I can't find it at the moment. But I know that base 75% chance to hit was something so common knowledge that this is actually the first time I can recall someone even questioning it.
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I know, right!?!|
Originally Posted by Demobot
I leave for a few hours and this thread gets even better.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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So, another new guy with less than five-hundred posts figures they know more about the game than folks like Arcanaville, who have been datamining it for years. Must be Friday.
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Eh, that doesn't really bother me. It does perplex me, however, that the OP seems to be using what is essentially my information in an incorrect manner and ignoring my corrections of those misunderstandings completely. I mean, I'm pretty sure I know what I meant when I wrote the attack mechanics guides and documented the tohit algorithm.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
So, another new guy with less than five-hundred posts figures they know more about the game than folks like Arcanaville, who have been datamining it for years. Must be Friday.
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Also, players have been testing accuracy and tohit formally since a least I3, and informally since at least I1 if not earlier. There's no way that at any time the base chance tohit an even con critter without defense was anything other than about 75%. There's no way it could have been significantly better, and there's no way it could have been significantly worse. So to be honest, I'm really at a loss. This might simply be one of those cases where a player has an intractable belief that something is amiss that cannot be disproved with any factual information. It happens.
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It's ok Arcana - us marketeers have to deal with intractable beliefs far more than you. It was your turn.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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I did my time in the market forums as well. When you start arguing over the definition of terms like "arbitrage" and the way actual economists use the term is not considered credible evidence, you know no good can really come of it.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
It's ok Arcana - us marketeers have to deal with intractable beliefs far more than you. It was your turn.
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To me, the big difference is that when people assert misinformation about the game mechanics, that's a potential source of confusion and being misled: its worth taking the time to correct those, just in case a random forum reader thinks there might be something to it.
On the other hand, I don't really care if someone wants to try to prove to me that, say, temporal arbitrage can exist or not. I don't care if its impossible: I only care if I can do it. If I can, I'm ok with doing the impossible.
My only real concern about the markets is that everything the devs have done to tweak the economy has tended to stifle order flow. That's unhealthy and should be looked at. Other than that, although I'm not really an active marketeer, if its doable, I've probably done it at least once, just to see if I could get away with it. And probably on the first day of trading at I9 launch, too. So unfortunately, I'm probably part of the problem.
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Never mind what the OP said, this is the craziest thing I have read in this topic.|
Originally Posted by geko
Black Hole is not a Controlling power to be used in every encounter. Like most high level power, it is situational and is very powerful when suddenly faced with more foes than you can handle. It is very potent to remove half of your enemies for 30 seconds when used correctly.
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More like a way to hide the enemies that are attacking you behind an impenetrable wall of invincible enemies to prevent you from targeting.
He changed his name to Balseraph didn't he?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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In fairness to geko, there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with what he said. The problem is really something that you couldn't predict, which is that for reasons not completely understood (at least by me), CoH players quickly and uncommonly came to believe, on average, three things that are not universally believed in other MMOs:|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Never mind what the OP said, this is the craziest thing I have read in this topic.
More like a way to hide the enemies that are attacking you behind an impenetrable wall of invincible enemies to prevent you from targeting. He changed his name to Balseraph didn't he? |
1. If you are facing too many things, its because you just aren't killing them fast enough.
2. If you aren't killing them fast enough, its your fault for not dealing enough damage.
3. If there isn't enough damage to kill everything faster than they can kill you, its the devs fault for not making enough damage available, because they hate us and have no idea that the point to a superhero genre game is to be massively overpowered relative to the game environment.
This overwhelmingly offense-skewed perspective seems to be unique to City of Heroes, and its ingrained in the culture. Defense seems to be there just to defend against alpha volleys and allow scrappers to solo entire zones. Otherwise, if your defenses are doing anything at all, its probably because you don't have enough AoEs.
I do not fault the devs for not seeing that one coming. I will fault any dev team in the future for not preventing it from happening ever again, because for all the good things in this game that happened by chance, that one cost us more than most players will ever know, but any dev team with a brain should know.
Granted, the mechanics of Black Hole were problematic, but geko's statement itself is not totally off the wall weird. The devs saw a thirty second break as being a defefnsive advantage; the players saw it as an offensive disadvantage.
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I'm actually questioning its defensive utility. I just used it for the first time last night, and immediately came to the opinion that phase is unpopular because it's unsupported by the interface, in addition to the offensive mindset.
In other words I criticize that he didn't consider the interface and whether it supported the purpose of the power, which definitely does not take enemies out of the action.
The targetable phased enemies act like phantom army, essentially, and they can jump back with no warning to team members who don't know when you used it. It's especially important if you consider that twilight grasp and other dark masma powers require targets to work.
So I just wrote this.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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| This overwhelmingly offense-skewed perspective seems to be unique to City of Heroes, and its ingrained in the culture. |
IMO it's also partly because the capabilities of single heroes have increased to match what was originally created for large teams, with nothing put in place to continue to challenge teams on an enemy-by-enemy basis. If you look at other MMOs you can see the it's somewhat standard practice for teams to face "enhanced" versions of normal enemies. In terms of difficulty I'd say it be a bit like removing Minions altogether, and basically sliding everything up a difficulty notch; Lieut >> Boss >> Elite Boss.
It's also partly because it is really, really easy to mezz groups of enemies in this game with Holds and Stuns. IMO if we get a City of Heroes 2 the model for AoE mezzes should come from Ice and Electric Control rather than the hardline sets. I'll say nothing about the Control set with the immune-to-everything pets that has been soloing content meant for groups of 20 or more.
I leave for a few hours and this thread gets even better.
@Demobot
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