Accuracy WAS Nerfed
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 24:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Honestly, I don't remember what the thread was originally about anymore. I was just waiting for an opportunity to tell my Castle story again.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started posting not knowing what it was, and it keeps on going just because...
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If anyone has any animation related questions, I can tell a completely irrelevant story about how I proved BaB was wrong about frame counting.
Its a shame I don't really have any dirt on our current overlord. Blackmailing Castle and BaB into doing my bidding was fun and all, but that's peanuts compared to trying to get War Witch to grant me Infinite Freem. People used to say that the devs should grant me a red name, or a job, or some other small reward like that in appreciation for what I do, and I would always say there was no need: I was just glad to help. I don't need to be specifically rewarded for helping a game I love to play and have enjoyed for years.
Well screw that. I want my Infinite Freem toggle. Just tell me who I have to kill.
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So what relation does animation have to frame count, anyway?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If anyone has any animation related questions, I can tell a completely irrelevant story about how I proved BaB was wrong about frame counting.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Dirt on War Witch?
Well, it's not much, but...
A couple of years ago, over here in the EU, we had the Omega Sektor player meet, which was an utterly brilliant fun weekend - The (old) EU community team, War Witch and that guy we now call Noble Savage, 50+ European CoH players and VERY LITTLE SLEEP.
Now, this was when War Witch was "she in charge of zones", and it happened to coincide with a problem that some people might remember - The Supatroll Spawning problem.
(To the uninitiated, this was a problem where Supatrolls in Skyway City failed to despawn properly, so it wasn't even remotely unusual to see over 200 of them in one place.)
So my good buddy FFM collars "She in charge of zones", and drags her over to where I'm on my main, flying around Skyway, and we ask one simple question.
"Is THIS meant to happen?"
Cue a tight crowd of 80 Supatrolls coming into view.
"Umm... No... That... that's... yeah, that looks like a scripting problem... no, it's NOT meant to do that. Wow. Umm... Wow."
"Anyone for the Dee Jay badge? Get it while you still can."
I think that bug lasted maybe one patch more before it got fixed on the live build.
That's the only time I know of that She Who Must Be Obeyed has had player assistance on fixing something in her bailiwick.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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I once PMed War Witch a detailed description of a set of placement problems for an AE map which was causing some item spawns to happen inside of walls. She thanked me and said she'd add it to her list of things to do. Next patch: map was gone.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
That's the only time I know of that She Who Must Be Obeyed has had player assistance on fixing something in her bailiwick.
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I no longer try to put things on War Witch's list of things to do. War Witch 1, Arcana 0.
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Probably like those who read that shield charge's recharge was reduced in I18, but not that it was in fact reverted after being increased in beta, and insisted in public channels that shield charge was so much better now and it was recharging so much faster.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
After checking, Castle reported to the forums that in fact the change had not made it into the build, and in fact SR had not been buffed at all. Oops. I often wonder how all those people that reported the buff significantly improving the performance of the set in their testing felt after that revelation.
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I still think that helped to reduce the shield charge nerf controversy. There was hardly a flame to be read.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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If it hasn't been said recently, thank you for being there for us.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Most ways to do this are detectable by the people who monitor the numbers in the game. Almost no ways of doing this would be undetectable by me personally.
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Thanks for the info, Arcanaville. This information is just what I was looking for and will help me determine if it is all in my head or if I'm noting a discrepancy of some sort.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Ask and ye shall receive. First of all, paragonwiki has a description of the streakbreaker here.
Here's how it works (including some information not in the article): 1. Zoning resets the streakbreaker. 2. Autohitting powers and effects are ignored by the streakbreaker. They do not count as hits, they do not count as misses ("autohit powers are not included in the system"). 3. The number of misses the system will tolerate before forcing the next attack to hit is based on the worst chance to hit during your current miss streak, including the attack being used. See the table in the Paragonwiki article. 4. The streakbreaker only breaks miss streaks by inducing hits. It does not break hit streaks by inducing misses. It can only help you hit. 5. The streakbreaker affects all entities that are allowed to attack. This includes players and critters. Nothing is exempt from the streakbreaker. 6. The streakbreaker tracks attackers, not powers. 7. AoEs roll one tohit roll per target, starting from the closest target to the center of the AoE (or the origin for cones) and working outward. 8. Damage auras roll tohit rolls, and are often overlooked when observing streakbreaker behavior. 9. Unslotted Brawl is one of the biggest killers of the streakbreaker, since it can have a very low chance to hit the target without accuracy slotting. See rule #3 above. |
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To me, actually this was a logical consequence of the early game. Before ED, before GDN, there was a long span where the best way to build a character was:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is really something that you couldn't predict, which is that for reasons not completely understood (at least by me), CoH players quickly and uncommonly came to believe, on average, three things that are not universally believed in other MMOs:
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Take Hasten
Slot all attacks 1 Acc 5 Dam, or 2 Acc 4 Dam if you wanted to play cautiously.
The winning strategies really were to throw more offense at it, and for a long time. Hasten by itself divided players into two separate tiers, and after that (level-wise) Stamina did the same. Defnsive sets, for ATs that even had them, either made you nigh invulnerable without even trying (often off of a single power, like Invincibility, IH, Granite) or flat out didn't work (anything Defense-based, Darkness' non-stackable shields); either way, tinkering with them was largely fruitless.
This set the tone very, *very* early on. Turning blue bar into orange numbers was not merely the best thing, but the *only* thing (City of Blasters, anyone?). Slots go in attacks, reds go in slots, go, hunt, kill skuls. (Yeah, I'm still bitter about how hard the game was if you didn't jump on board all this, and find a way to cram Fitness & Hasten onto *every* character by 20.) Those echoes are still rebounding even now, the background radiation of the CoX universe.
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Which map was it?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I once PMed War Witch a detailed description of a set of placement problems for an AE map which was causing some item spawns to happen inside of walls. She thanked me and said she'd add it to her list of things to do. Next patch: map was gone.
I no longer try to put things on War Witch's list of things to do. War Witch 1, Arcana 0. |
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It got even worse during the Hami-O days (but before ED and GDN), where everything was 6 slotted for damage at Hami-O levels, giving each power 400% of base damage.|
Originally Posted by WhyNot
To me, actually this was a logical consequence of the early game. Before ED, before GDN, there was a long span where the best way to build a character was:
Take Hasten Slot all attacks 1 Acc 5 Dam, or 2 Acc 4 Dam if you wanted to play cautiously. |
Even without -regen you could just blast through enemies with that level of ridiculous damage.
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The Crey Hero Lab map, and it was eventually put back.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
Which map was it?
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What does that mean?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The streakbreaker tracks attackers, not powers.
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Each individual entity has its own streakbreaker, each power does not, or both?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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The game manual actually says, "Special thanks to Arcanaville" in it. And it should.
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Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
If it hasn't been said recently, thank you for being there for us.
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There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Basically what it means is that it is possible to perform an Assassin Strike ten times in a row, and miss every single time, IF you are using other attacks between the Assassin Strikes. The streakbreaker does not consider uses of the same attack as "consecutive" unless they are actually used consecutively. |
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
What does that mean?
Each individual entity has its own streakbreaker, each power does not, or both? |
This is likely one of the main things that causes people to believe Accuracy has been nerfed. Their overall hit rate is well over 95%, they hit with every other single attack they use, but because of some random bad luck a particular attack misses every time. This is usually noticed because accuracy is very important at that moment, they're trying to mez a foe to provide damage mitigation, or they need a heal and their drain misses. The streakbreaker just tries to keep you from missing too many times in a row, it can't do anything about missing at the worst possible time.
My guess is that each individual entity has its own streakbreaker. You can't have all your "free hits" going to your allies or your foes, for instance.
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It means that just because you missed with Headsplitter once, your next attack, say Slice, is guaranteed to hit, rather than your next Headsplitter.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
What does that mean?
Each individual entity has its own streakbreaker, each power does not, or both? |
Assuming 90+% chance to hit on all attacks, of course.
It also means that if your Slice misses, and your next attack is Headsplitter, the Headsplitter will be forced to hit.
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I'd say it has more to do with buff/debuff powers being, on average, two digits of effectiveness out-of-the-box.|
Originally Posted by WhyNot
To me, actually this was a logical consequence of the early game. Before ED, before GDN, there was a long span where the best way to build a character was:
Take Hasten Slot all attacks 1 Acc 5 Dam, or 2 Acc 4 Dam if you wanted to play cautiously. The winning strategies really were to throw more offense at it, and for a long time. Hasten by itself divided players into two separate tiers, and after that (level-wise) Stamina did the same. Defnsive sets, for ATs that even had them, either made you nigh invulnerable without even trying (often off of a single power, like Invincibility, IH, Granite) or flat out didn't work (anything Defense-based, Darkness' non-stackable shields); either way, tinkering with them was largely fruitless. This set the tone very, *very* early on. Turning blue bar into orange numbers was not merely the best thing, but the *only* thing (City of Blasters, anyone?). Slots go in attacks, reds go in slots, go, hunt, kill skuls. (Yeah, I'm still bitter about how hard the game was if you didn't jump on board all this, and find a way to cram Fitness & Hasten onto *every* character by 20.) Those echoes are still rebounding even now, the background radiation of the CoX universe. |
In the classical design of MMOs, having a single target 15% damage debuff at level [insert individual game's cap] was akin to being a god of support classes, even if the skill had a downtime to uptime ratio of 20:1.
'Round here? That's a level 1 Kinetics Defender with Power Siphon. And it stacks easily on each casting for -25% damage at a time while also granting +25% damage to the surrounding team. Hell, a level 12 Force Field Defender can grant the entire team 25% defense to virtually everything without any extraordinary effort and zero investment on their part.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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Each entity ("attacker") has it's own miss counter and worst miss percentage, and therefore essentially their own streakbreaker. All attacks used by that attacker count towards the same counters. That's why using a very bad accuracy attack in the middle of an otherwise good chain of attacks can hurt a little, because it can effectively turn off the streakbreaker until that particular misss streak is broken.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Basically what it means is that it is possible to perform an Assassin Strike ten times in a row, and miss every single time, IF you are using other attacks between the Assassin Strikes. The streakbreaker does not consider uses of the same attack as "consecutive" unless they are actually used consecutively.
This is likely one of the main things that causes people to believe Accuracy has been nerfed. Their overall hit rate is well over 95%, they hit with every other single attack they use, but because of some random bad luck a particular attack misses every time. This is usually noticed because accuracy is very important at that moment, they're trying to mez a foe to provide damage mitigation, or they need a heal and their drain misses. The streakbreaker just tries to keep you from missing too many times in a row, it can't do anything about missing at the worst possible time. My guess is that each individual entity has its own streakbreaker. You can't have all your "free hits" going to your allies or your foes, for instance. |
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Quote:
Arcana, I hate to ask this now because I can't get on my computer and get screenshots, but I've been getting weird results with the Melee Purple Proc. I monitored my to hit channel, and noticed that when i activated my Dark dwarf smite, it rolls two to hit checks, one at my normal to hit (95%) which can change with debuffs and one at a constant 10% which doesnt change. I noticed it doesn't roll any other "extra" to hit checks with other ptocs. I just gotta know, do you think this could be affecting my steakbreaker?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Each entity ("attacker") has it's own miss counter and worst miss percentage, and therefore essentially their own streakbreaker. All attacks used by that attacker count towards the same counters. That's why using a very bad accuracy attack in the middle of an otherwise good chain of attacks can hurt a little, because it can effectively turn off the streakbreaker until that particular misss streak is broken.
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I promise to log in late tonight and get pics for you, and even try and get some high volume rolls.
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It shouldn't. Its showing the proc's chance to fire, which is not a tohit roll, but does show up in the combat chat. If it affects the streakbreaker, its a bug.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Arcana, I hate to ask this now because I can't get on my computer and get screenshots, but I've been getting weird results with the Melee Purple Proc. I monitored my to hit channel, and noticed that when i activated my Dark dwarf smite, it rolls two to hit checks, one at my normal to hit (95%) which can change with debuffs and one at a constant 10% which doesnt change. I noticed it doesn't roll any other "extra" to hit checks with other ptocs. I just gotta know, do you think this could be affecting my steakbreaker?
I promise to log in late tonight and get pics for you, and even try and get some high volume rolls. |
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Quote:
That 10% roll is the power's chance to stun, and does not affect the streak breaker. Not sure if all "chance to" attacks have a seperate hit roll for the effect or just stuns since I've only noticed it on my MA scrapper, although I don't often pay much attention to my hit chances unless I think something's wrong (and of course, looking always fixes it).
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Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Arcana, I hate to ask this now because I can't get on my computer and get screenshots, but I've been getting weird results with the Melee Purple Proc. I monitored my to hit channel, and noticed that when i activated my Dark dwarf smite, it rolls two to hit checks, one at my normal to hit (95%) which can change with debuffs and one at a constant 10% which doesnt change. I noticed it doesn't roll any other "extra" to hit checks with other ptocs. I just gotta know, do you think this could be affecting my steakbreaker?
I promise to log in late tonight and get pics for you, and even try and get some high volume rolls. |
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
That's really weird. I've had that character for years and never noticed it. I think the proc has a ten percent so i associated it with that, but never saw any other proc doing it. And I don't recall seeing the chance for dissorient rolling to hit, but I don't play with many characters where the power's focus is damage, with a chance to dissorient secondary effect.
I'm still going to play atound with it once I get home, probably use that second build to test the power without the proc.
Update: So I'm home now, and I think Come Undone has it right. It looks like it's matching up with the disorient chance, which makes zero sense to me. Why is the chance to disorient even showing up in the to hit rolls? In either case, it doesn't seem to be affecting the chance to hit for the other attacks, which is good.
I'm still confused to heck, but I'm at least relieved to know my powers and such aren't... broken for me. Horray?
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Some powers are like that. Not sure of the technical details, but it has to do with how the game engine taps into the random roll system to print combat chat. Its not "clean."
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Originally Posted by Mr_Right
It looks like it's matching up with the disorient chance, which makes zero sense to me. Why is the chance to disorient even showing up in the to hit rolls?
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I've heard of scrappers soloing pilons. And there were controllers and defenders soloing giant monsters for ages. I saw a dark/dark defender solo Lucia for example in issue 4, a GM which usually required 3 to 4 teams to beat... with a lot of dying and teleporting back to the fight from the hospital.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
I just glanced back in the thread and blinked at this.
... Soloing content meant for groups of 20 or more? Um, let's see. Mothership raid? No.. Hamidon? no.. Cathedral of Pain? No.. Unless you're talking about GMs, I can't fathom what you're referring to, and ... I'm sorry, but GMs are 'a beefy target' not 'content'. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I'm still of the opinion that those in isolation don't qualify as 'content'.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I've heard of scrappers soloing pilons. And there were controllers and defenders soloing giant monsters for ages. I saw a dark/dark defender solo Lucia for example in issue 4, a GM which usually required 3 to 4 teams to beat... with a lot of dying and teleporting back to the fight from the hospital.
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If a scrapper manages to get all the pylons down and through the mothership, that'd be soloing content.
GMs also not so much, unless it's as part of something larger.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I honestly try not to let it bother me. I wasn't expecting any apology because that's what experience has told me to expect, not because I thought there was anything wrong with the OP. He made a mistake, and as far as I'm concerned that's enough for me.