Accuracy WAS Nerfed
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 24:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Phase Shift is a toggle. >.>|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I doubt that will help Black Hole and its cousins much. Although, while typing that post above, it occurred to me that the *ultimate* in situational usage intangibles that would *never* be questioned when used is this one:
1. Toggle. 2. 15' radius PBAoE. 3. Usable while dead. As a toggle and PBAoE, it you could turn it off and on, like Choking Cloud. You could maneuver around and only affect the targets you wanted to. And if you could use it while dead, you could theoretically intangible away all the critters around you when the team wiped, allowing them to rez in perfect safety. It would be like an inverse Soul Transfer. Few people would take it still, but no one would complain about it anymore. At worst, team mates would tell you to turn it off if you were using it while everyone was still alive. Although to be honest, a controllable toggle foe intangible might actually be too powerful. |
A similar mechanic to prevent it from extending past 30 seconds and either an effect similar to NoPhase or just a long and/or fixed recharge would limit the power.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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He is man enough to walk away from this thread rather than continue in it. I can't be bothered to read the entire thread but it is clear from what I am quoting and have read that one or two people are breaking the EULA.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
He realized he was wrong, isn't a man enough to admit that, but smart enough not to go on with his rant.
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I find this post provocative.
Don't do ego on the internet. It just wrong. I give in to it now and then but I know its wrong thats partly why I have my sig.
LOVE THE DOGGY PICS PEOPLE PUT IN! ICED GEMS ALL ROUND!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I remember making a suggestion like that, with the idea that Fire had 9 powers, but only 4 (Healing Flames, Fire Shield, Blazing Aura, and Plasma Shield, just in case you were wondering which four) of them were essential to the job of tanking. I thought all tanking defensive sets should be similar. I don't remember many of the powers I wanted added to the different sets, once the existing powers were consolidated, but I thought it would be nice to have a pet wisp in Invulnerability, just something like the veteran combat pet, but a little harder to kill.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If players could make full attack chains with fewer attacks, and enable the core protections of their defensive sets with fewer powers (for those with defenses) there would be less antagonism towards situational powers, I think.
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Wait wait wait...
what? Accuracy was Nerfed??????
<--figured I would just post without reading any other posts-->
makes life more fun
Virtue Server Forever !
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@Blue Lava
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I'm not one to encourage flaming, and I've been uncomfortable about some of the responses in this thread, as I tend to be with most that have been like this. But IMHO the OP came here looking for a conspiracy, and addressed all opposition as proof of that consipiracy. I honestly don't find that position either mature or positive. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
He is man enough to walk away from this thread rather than continue in it. I can't be bothered to read the entire thread but it is clear from what I am quoting and have read that one or two people are breaking the EULA.
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I feel I have avoided getting into the flaming myself, and twice attempted to explain the mechanics even after the OP insisted on ignoring the first attempt. If he truly is contrite over having made an honest mistake, even if he doesn't want to post here to admit to it, I am hopeful that one of my posts helped him change his mind.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that a great deal of what is going on currently in this thread is momentum. It's turned into doggy pics, and a discussion of mechanics in general by folks who enjoy discussing that sort of thing.
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That depends though. I think all nine powers in Fiery Aura to be very essential to your job as a Fire Tanker (even more so if you're a Scrapper or Brute).
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
...with the idea that Fire had 9 powers, but only 4 (Healing Flames, Fire Shield, Blazing Aura, and Plasma Shield, just in case you were wondering which four) of them were essential to the job of tanking...
Blazing Aura helps attract foes to you. Temperature Protection offers you more protection. Fiery Embrace and Burn both help you defeat more foes, and in turn, dead foes can't harm your team mates! And finally, Rise of the Phoenix also helps you in your "tanking" as it allows you to come back for a second round when your teammates are falling apart so you can take some heat of them.
I don't see how any of those powers are NOT essential to "tanking". Unless maybe you think "tanking" is strictly limited to standing in one place and acting as a bullet sponge?!
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This makes a lot of sense. Of course it also means that no amount of testing, anecdotal evidence, or explanations by other players, Developers, or any human agency is likely to change his mind. He KNOWS that accuracy has changed and his faith in that knowledge is effectively stronger than any evidence to the contrary. Anything he sees as affirming this faith is true and anything that runs counter is wrong or irrelevant. That pretty much ends any possibility of agreement since basic mathematical facts aren't subject to revision or compromise. No matter how strongly someone believes 1+2=4 everyone else still gets 3 as the answer when they do it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What I was saying, and it seems it was worth saying because I'm now repeating, was that after careful consideration the OP really isn't interested in anyone correcting his understanding of game mechanics, as you were pointing out in your post; he is convinced that accuracy was nerfed, and that if his understanding of the mechanics is at fault, all it means is that the problem lies elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant when he said:
"Accuracy reduction is not a myth. And I will be the first to acknowledge my own in-game testing seems to point that the "math" being presented works out correctly. The point of what I posted is that we noticebaly began missing suddenly, like 3, 4 and 5 times in a row and now requiring 2 accuracy enhancements or a higher level IO to compensate for it. I have been here since CoH Beta and this was never the case." So when you said: "B_D, please, you were mistaken. It's totally forgivable that you got this stuff mixed up. It's not rocket science, but it is kind of complicated. There was no nerf. You've got some of the people most knowledgeable about game's hit-chance mechanics that exist in the player community responding to you in this thread. They're correct here. Think about it. If Mid's contained information showing the kind of discrepancy you're describing, and if the makers of Mid's really trusted their powers info enough to believe that discrepancy was valid, do you really think the makers of Mid's wouldn't have come to the forums posting about it? Or that someone using Mid's wouldn't have noticed by now?" I don't think it matters to the OP. Either our information proves accuracy was nerfed, or our information is wrong. Either way, I don't think our corrections are meaningful to the OP. I'm not even sure the OP is reading my posts at all. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I know that in general rez powers are seen as bad for Tankers, since if you die in the first place, you've done a bad job of tanking. |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
And finally, Rise of the Phoenix also helps you in your "tanking" as it allows you to come back for a second round when your teammates are falling apart so you can take some heat of them.
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OTOH, Fire Aura was designed from the onset to be less defensive than other sets, and thus dying is more likely. More importantly, the damage and stun, not present in a lot of other rez powers, allows you to regain some of your aggro, and buy you time to gain back the rest.
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I disagree. But that's just my play style speaking. I believe "active defense" is practically more effective than "passive defense". Rise of the Phoenix is more than effective for when things go wrong, as it not only brings you back up, but it also wipes the floor of any left over enemies that may be harassing your team mates.
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I know that in general rez powers are seen as bad for Tankers, since if you die in the first place, you've done a bad job of tanking.
It also has an epic animation! xD
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Previously, Temperature Protection was rather useless. It was quite skippable. Then the devs added in slow/recharge protection - to me it's much more important now, especially with Fire's relationship with Healing Flames (and to a lesser extent, Consume.) |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"] Temperature Protection offers you more protection.
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| And finally, Rise of the Phoenix also helps you in your "tanking" as it allows you to come back for a second round when your teammates are falling apart so you can take some heat of them. |
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I have no objection to your comment replying to me as it is an opinion.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I know that in general rez powers are seen as bad for Tankers, since if you die in the first place, you've done a bad job of tanking.
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I have a Phoenix concept tanker. I'll RotP for any mad insane reason I can think off. It doesn't have to effect the tanking duty at all. Now I have other Tankers without a self res and it is a concept choice to have one with one. Being tired of the false belief in immortality (ok phoenix concepts are but you know what I mean) it's nice to have a character without ego that runs in toggles off and resses with a comment like "*sings* Ooops I did it again!".
I've tried being the min/maxxer who knew all the figures and tanks anything. I done that. Passed that phase now and found out that ingame, love and fun is all we need.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Not sure if the author here intended for the story to be cross posted to other forums, this was a "commissioned" bio for another player, but it's always been a memorable description of Rise of the Phoenix to me. link|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I disagree. But that's just my play style speaking. I believe "active defense" is practically more effective than "passive defense". Rise of the Phoenix is more than effective for when things go wrong, as it not only brings you back up, but it also wipes the floor of any left over enemies that may be harassing your team mates. It also has an epic animation! xD |
Soul Transfer can be just as useful, it has a disorient, and draining your enemies souls out of them is just to get their aggro.
Resurgence, not so much, although WP in general isn't quite as good at holding aggro anyway.
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Just to make sure I was clear, that was NOT a belief that I share. I was saying that it was SEEN that way, which is why it tended to be unpopular in the past. That doesn't mean it was right to be unpopular. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
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Honestly, I have an Invulnerability Tanker now that blows up at the slightest provocation. She's an android, and her body is just a shell, her "true self" is an AI. So I use the power Self Destruction, often just as Unstoppable is about to expire. Instead of having to struggle through an Unstoppable crash, I get to explode, use an Awaken, and get right back into the fight. Assuming anything's still standing.
Not exactly the same thing as Rise of the Phoenix, but you know, if she HAD Rise of the Phoenix, it would be even better than using an Awaken.
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For me, the set to look at for inspiration is Dark Armor. Dark Embrance, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, and Dark Regeneration, and you're basically set. You have basically all your resistances, all your status protection, and an extremely powerful heal. You can take Death Shroud if you want the damage, or not. You can take Cloak of Darkness, or not. You can take either of Oppressive Gloom or Cloak of Fear, or neither, or both. But taking both is not quite as good as the sum of both since there is a slight non-synergy between them. And of course there's Soul Transfer, one of the best rezzes in the game if you like rezzes, or very skippable if you don't.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I remember making a suggestion like that, with the idea that Fire had 9 powers, but only 4 (Healing Flames, Fire Shield, Blazing Aura, and Plasma Shield, just in case you were wondering which four) of them were essential to the job of tanking. I thought all tanking defensive sets should be similar. I don't remember many of the powers I wanted added to the different sets, once the existing powers were consolidated, but I thought it would be nice to have a pet wisp in Invulnerability, just something like the veteran combat pet, but a little harder to kill.
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Four "core" powers, and five powers that are simultaneously not necessary, but also not worthless. They are almost the perfect balance between being useful in interesting ways, but also optional depending on the taste of the player. In many ways, I consider Dark Armor to be the most beautifully designed set, and its almost completely by accident.
The worst, by the way, is Super Reflexes, at least in terms of the way the power choices are presented to the player. Setting aside any discussion of how good or bad the set is, Super Reflexes has three toggles that are basically mandatory, and Practiced Brawler. And then it has three defensive passives that are each *doubly* synergistic: they synergize with their respective defensive toggle, and synergize with each other due to the scaling resistances.
By "synergize" I mean the value is more than the sum of the parts. For example, the difference between just having the slotted toggle (~21.6% defense) and having both (~30.4% defense) is the difference between 28.4% of all attacks landing and 19.6% of all attacks landing. That means losing the passive increases incoming damage (through that type) by a whopping 45%. Considering the toggle is numerically more than twice as large as the passive, losing the passive essentially cuts your protection nearly in half.
In a more complex way, the scaling resistances are also only about half as strong in terms of protection when you have two as when you have three. So amazingly, you have six powers (three toggles and three passives) in which ALL of them have the property that losing any one of them costs you significantly more than 1/6th your total protection. That's actually unique among all defensive sets in all of the powers being essentially "necessary."
Seven necessary powers, and two optional ones - Elude and Quickness. And Quickness is actually not so simple: the recharge and movement debuff resistances in Quickness were actually put in there to solve certain balance issues with the set. In particular, the movement debuff is there almost specifically to serve one purpose: to allow SR to run more quickly out of autohitting debuff patches. Its there to prevent Quicksand from eviscerating SR, and to prevent Caltrops from autohitting SR to death right through their defenses.
One of the reasons I wasn't so crazy about the most recent (~I13) buffs to Invuln is that it pushed Invuln closer to having the same problem as SR.
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I don't argue that the other powers aren't useful. They are very useful (though, burn has been at times, more and less useful). But:|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
That depends though. I think all nine powers in Fiery Aura to be very essential to your job as a Fire Tanker (even more so if you're a Scrapper or Brute). Blazing Aura helps attract foes to you. Temperature Protection offers you more protection. Fiery Embrace and Burn both help you defeat more foes, and in turn, dead foes can't harm your team mates! And finally, Rise of the Phoenix also helps you in your "tanking" as it allows you to come back for a second round when your teammates are falling apart so you can take some heat of them. I don't see how any of those powers are NOT essential to "tanking". Unless maybe you think "tanking" is strictly limited to standing in one place and acting as a bullet sponge?! |
Rise of the Phoenix, Temperature Protection, and Combustion are situational. Chances are you don't die every mission. Cold is very rare, slows are slightly less rare. And the +Endurance is nice, but unless you're on an endurance heavy secondary, it's not needed. You're not losing too much if you skip these powers.
Burn and Firey Embrace are damage. You can get them or you can get something from your secondary power pool, it doesn't really matter which. Again, nice, but not necessary. You have other sources of damage.
Speaking personally, I'd love it if half the powers in every powerset were considered optional and not necessary. I don't like having to take 8 of 9 powers in a set before I even start considering what I "want."
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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what's fun about RotP, it does pretty decent damage, so if a mob is locked down, they'll lose a chunk of health/die off instead of being KB'd.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I know that in general rez powers are seen as bad for Tankers, since if you die in the first place, you've done a bad job of tanking.
OTOH, Fire Aura was designed from the onset to be less defensive than other sets, and thus dying is more likely. More importantly, the damage and stun, not present in a lot of other rez powers, allows you to regain some of your aggro, and buy you time to gain back the rest. |
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Dark Armour wasn't a tanker set at the time I was thinking about this. I didn't give a damn about scrappers. I agree, I do particularly like Dark Armour as a design, but it wasn't even something I looked at back then.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For me, the set to look at for inspiration is Dark Armor.
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When I did look at Super Reflexes and was struck by the same thing. I was trying to plan a Super Reflexes scrapper, I couldn't pick a single power to skip from the secondary, so I decided to skip having a travel power. (Which has become so much easier in the past three years.)
I still think it'd be nice if they could combine two of the resist passives into one power and give Invulnerability a revive.
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RotP is awesome. Sometimes I die on purpose or just play very recklessly just so I can use it on my Dom. I'm sure it'd be different on a Tanker, but I plan on doing that on the Scrapper I'll be making soon.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
what's fun about RotP, it does pretty decent damage, so if a mob is locked down, they'll lose a chunk of health/die off instead of being KB'd.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Heh, nope, as a tanker I have been know to look at the situation and decide a big boom with a stun would be good right about now and not healed myself so I could use RotP. (whistles innocently) And I am sticking to that story!
By accepting what is and making the best use of every situation, life can be fulfilled without a constant demand for more.
--Wen Tzu
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When I suggested that, a really long time ago, the specific reason(s) Castle gave for why that could not be done are what I called the powerset rebalancing commandments**, and we know today as the cottage rule (I also recommended strengthening the passives, to levels close to what they are now, and making a change to Dull Pain).|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I still think it'd be nice if they could combine two of the resist passives into one power and give Invulnerability a revive.
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In the same post, I suggested combining Focused Senses and Evasion, and Agile and Lucky, and replacing both Lucky and Evasion with utility powers. My two top candidates were a travel power toggle and a conserve power-like click, although I was also thinking about a scaling power in place of Evasion - which would be necessary today given the Brute version of SR (which did not exist at the time I made the suggestion, because Brutes did not exist at the time I made the suggestion). Today, I would probably recommend more exotic and interesting substitutions.
** They were:
I. Thou shalt not change the order of powers in a powerset unless absolutely necessary
II. Thou shalt not delete an effect from a power unless required by balance mandate
III. Thou shalt not change the mechanics of a power in terms of activation or usage
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I like RotP on my scrapper because even if I die, I can act like that was my plan all along. 
Just to quote that link provided awhile ago, This is the snip-it of how RoTP is described.
"
Hang in there. the captain whispered, transfixed by what he was seeing.
The chief soldier finally made it to the front. Stepping forward, his dead, alien eyes locked with Alumettes as he pulled a two handed sword glittering with power. BRING IT! she shouted, casing her arms wide. With a flare, the ground around her exploded igniting the breach and turning it into a furnace in seconds. Alien screams filled the air as warrior after warrior pitched over, was flash fried, or backed away trying to put out a flames that burned through energy fields, armor, and flesh with equal voracity. The chief soldier strode into the flames unconcerned to tower at nearly twice Alumettes height. With a double handed swing, the blade slammed into Alumettes body and drove her to the ground with a shriek and crump that cracked ground beneath her. As she tried to rise, he lifted the weapon high over his head and brought it down again, slamming it into her head and back and driving her flat. Dazed, stunned, and now uncertain, Alumette again tried to stand.
*First in battle she muttered, blood dropping from her mouth to vaporize in the flames.
First to fall
she whispered shaking as she tried to push her legs under her.
NOOOOO! the captain yelled as he watched the blade rise.
With another downward stroke, the Soldier drove the sword into Alumettes prone body, her arms flailing upward as the impact literally drove her into the earth and doused the flames surrounding her with a soft pop.
We have them all! the SAS Sergeant said. We HAVE to go!
The captain nodded in abject horror. Go
go go go go go Get us OUT of here! The VTOL powered up with a roar as the last of the troops came on board.
The Chief soldier planted a foot on Alumettes back as his troops surrounded him. Pointing to the rising craft, he screeched a command and in unison the aliens raised their rifles.
NEVER FALL! Alumettes voice echoed through the compound heard everywhere and aboard the craft as her fallen body exploded into flames. Twin wings of pure yellow and red fire expanded from her back as she broke free from the ground, her eyes blazing with white hot fury. The captain shielded his face as the warriors surrounding the risen phoenix burst into flames. Lashing a hand forward, the now hovering Alumette seized the Chief Soldier by the throat, and staring into his eyes as the wings of blazing flame enfolded him, she pressed a single finger into his forehead, the touch super-heating his armor and cooking him inside. Letting go, she dropped his corpse to the smoking earth."
Isn't the key to the OP's original issue really this?
"...after a frustrating night of fanning enemies with Shadow Maul..."
It is quite frustrating to miss and be locked into the animation for those who haven't played much with this or Sands of Miss. I know I've felt the dice were loaded against me with this power, low level, before. Even with two ACC TOs at low level, since this is a new ALT for the OP, it can still be frustrating.
I get WHY the claim. But as all have pointed out, it's not supported by data. Plus, any thread that has Arcanaville responding in it can be successfully concluded after her first post, in my opinion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA