Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Linky? I don't remember seeing the Devs say that anywhere.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
No date yet. All we know is that it will NOT be in 2010.
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I haven't seen that either the announcement at PAX say i19 was "Fall 2010"
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Linky? I don't remember seeing the Devs say that anywhere.
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Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
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Hm.... Now I'm wondering if it was the i20 stuff that they said was "not til next year". I can't find anything one way or the other now.
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
I haven't seen that either the announcement at PAX say i19 was "Fall 2010"
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@Roderick
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=237378
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
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you took that out of context. my original post was about an alternative to inherent Stamina by giving a third option. i offered the choice between 24 gimped powers, 21 supercharged powers, or a whole new pool power set that allowed some flexibility between those two. this is what i had previously posted-|
Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
Um...
You just explained why Stamina as a power choice is lousy system design. It's something that enhances every active power a character has by freeing up enhancement slots that would otherwise have to be conservatively dedicated to energy management. Getting it is an absolute no-brainer, even with an cost of three power picks - you get the choice of 24 gimped powers or 21 supercharged ones. Now I hope they look at something to mess with regarding Hasten, though. It's in a similar category. I'd rather see it totally dropped or given an Endurance cost tax than made inherent, though. |
The Training Pool!
Survival Training - +8% Def (All) +10% Res (All), duration 20 seconds, recharge 120 seconds
(making it a click power makes it a decent option for a Tier 1 pool power.)
Fitness Training - (Auto) +25% Regen +15% Recovery
(combine health and stamina into one power rather than making it take 3 power selections. give less of a bonus to make it fit as a Tier 1 pool power.)
Athletic Training - (Auto) +100% Jump +30% RunSpd +10% Regen +5% Recovery
(combine Swift and Hurdle for those who want them and include a mild bonus for regen and recovery for those willing to dedicate a second power toward it. Absolutely optional, but reasonable, Tier 2 pool power.)
Superior Training - (Auto) +15% Regen +20% Recovery +5% Recharge
(progressive bonus keeping with trends of other pool powerset Tier 3 powers. could be made a click power with no overlap, also.)
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More better.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
It never fails to surprise me that people continually keep kicking a gift horse in the jewels.
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Well... my only guess as to why you have a problem with inherent stamina |
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I must say that when I found out about Stamina becoming inherent, rather than being happy about it I was somewhat dismayed. While on some builds it will be very nice for me, I have been working on a number of stamina-less characters and been having fun with it.
I would much rather see a new inherent that, while not full Stamina, gives +end recovery that makes Stamina less of a required power. I had actually thought very early on in CoH that it would be good to have an inherent power choice you make early on that would give you one of the following auto powers (unenhanceable): - End recovery (like 20%) - Regen (like 30%) - Run speed (little less than sprint ~35%) - Jump (like 50%) - Resistance (5-10% maybe?) - Defense (3%) - Damage (10%) - Mez Resistance (not mag resist, but time reduction) - More? |
is that you like bragging on how you " Have several builds without stamina"
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Same issues.|
Originally Posted by DiscoMetalStu
you took that out of context. my original post was about an alternative to inherent Stamina by giving a third option. i offered the choice between 24 gimped powers, 21 supercharged powers, or a whole new pool power set that allowed some flexibility between those two. this is what i had previously posted-
The Training Pool! ... |
Only difference is having a chain of three powers that improve every power you have (and even more aspects of the character) as opposed to a stack of three with the every-power benefit only at the top. Better than current Fitness pool, but still a non-choice if building for effectiveness.
I find myself thinking about something else now, though. IO sets complicate things. Since IO sets seem to almost all include Endurance reducers, to get their full set bonuses one must almost always slot in End reduction anyway. Since Stamina's benefit to all active powers derives partially from less need to slot End reduction over other enhancements, what will the effect be on the popularity of IO sets?
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Close to zero. Just look at the top builds for almost any AT - they include tons of IO sets and Stamina, with very few exceptions. There's nearly always something for your character to do with more endurance, whether it comes from recovering more or spending less.
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Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
Same issues.
Only difference is having a chain of three powers that improve every power you have (and even more aspects of the character) as opposed to a stack of three with the every-power benefit only at the top. Better than current Fitness pool, but still a non-choice if building for effectiveness. I find myself thinking about something else now, though. IO sets complicate things. Since IO sets seem to almost all include Endurance reducers, to get their full set bonuses one must almost always slot in End reduction anyway. Since Stamina's benefit to all active powers derives partially from less need to slot End reduction over other enhancements, what will the effect be on the popularity of IO sets? |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Close to zero. Just look at the top builds for almost any AT - they include tons of IO sets and Stamina, with very few exceptions. There's nearly always something for your character to do with more endurance, whether it comes from recovering more or spending less.
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For me, it isn't the three new powers. It's the ability to select a different power pool. At present, if you have speed pool (hasten) and fitness (stamina) - that just leaves two to pick from. I typically go with invis and tp. But now, I can select an additional power pool - that's where the gravy is. Tough, weave - both are handy for blasters, albeit a bit end heavy. And yes, leadership pool might be nice as well.
Just having the choice will be nice.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
So is the fitness pool being replaced with something new?
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As far as we know right now, no it is not.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
So is the fitness pool being replaced with something new?
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Honestly, I think a great solution would be an inherent auto power that provides very high End recovery, but but that suppresses during combat, much like travel powers and stealth. That way, your character's actual combat effectiveness would not have to be altered, but the boring sitting on your butt doing nothing period between spawns would be minimized. Heck, do the same thing for HP regen, too. In fact, just get rid of Rest and turn IT into said power.
Obviously, this does not address the mechanical flaws of the Fitness pool's design, but it does help solve the problem of constantly sucking wind after every fight.
The problem isn't sucking wind after every fight, but during.
Frequent boards reader, once-in-a-blue moon poster.
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I concur.|
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
Honestly, I think a great solution would be an inherent auto power that provides very high End recovery, but but that suppresses during combat, much like travel powers and stealth. That way, your character's actual combat effectiveness would not have to be altered, but the boring sitting on your butt doing nothing period between spawns would be minimized. Heck, do the same thing for HP regen, too. In fact, just get rid of Rest and turn IT into said power.
Obviously, this does not address the mechanical flaws of the Fitness pool's design, but it does help solve the problem of constantly sucking wind after every fight. |
I'd also suggest that, instead of making the Fitness pool inherent as separate powers, have a single inherent power that does nothing but serve as a container for enhancements to apply directly to the character. Have the effects scale in line with IO set bonuses and be subject to ED. That takes the problem of Stamina and turns it into a feature. The player then has a choice of buffing all their energy efficiency, or accuracy, or regen, or... instead of calling out a single aspect as a power choice.
That would force people to waste slots, though, to get the different benefits (You couldn't just do what some people do now and just throw a heal IO into Health and not bother slotting it anymore--since it'd all be one power)
But, I do believe that's how the Incarnate system is going to work.
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If all someone wanted were the Stamina benefit, then that wouldn't change the amount of slotting that typically happens now. And if the benefits were ranged in the magnitude of set bonuses, then choosing to stick a slot in another power to fit a bigger set would likewise be a viable choice instead of a non-choice. Conversely, it'd be the 'poor man's' shortcut to getting a boost or two that they can't afford (or slot, if they don't have compatible powers) all the relevant full sets for.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
That would force people to waste slots, though, to get the different benefits (You couldn't just do what some people do now and just throw a heal IO into Health and not bother slotting it anymore--since it'd all be one power)
But, I do believe that's how the Incarnate system is going to work. |
I do expect that's how the Incarnate system will work as well, but my understanding is that it will only be available at 50, which doesn't do any good until the end of a character's development lifetime. And I would hope that the selection of benefits from that would be a bit more varied and robust, too.
Again, consolidating fitness would basically just making people have even less slots than they had before Fitness become inherent, as they'd have to put more slots in just to have 1 enhancement for every type (I.E. 1 Health, 1 End Mod, 1 Run Speed, 1 Jump Height)
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Personally I'm not very worried about the overall slot budget. The number of slots is what the number of slots is. Really, the number of powers is what the number of powers is. It's just silly and annoying to only have one good choice in a system predicated on diversity of build choices, which is why I welcome the coming change. I'm fine with inherent fitness, I just think broader tweaks might get an even better result.
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Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Again, consolidating fitness would basically just making people have even less slots than they had before Fitness become inherent, as they'd have to put more slots in just to have 1 enhancement for every type (I.E. 1 Health, 1 End Mod, 1 Run Speed, 1 Jump Height)
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So, you want people to have to spend more slots to get the same benefit they have today, and you consider that a better result?|
Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
Personally I'm not very worried about the overall slot budget. The number of slots is what the number of slots is. Really, the number of powers is what the number of powers is. It's just silly and annoying to only have one good choice in a system predicated on diversity of build choices, which is why I welcome the coming change. I'm fine with inherent fitness, I just think broader tweaks might get an even better result.
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You can't just make a suggestion about how to "improve" the pool and then wave your hand at the fact that your suggestion actually makes the pool harder to use to the same benefit.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If you really thought about why most people choose Stamina for every single character they have, then you'll realize that those people can never have enough +recovery bonuses.
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Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
I find myself thinking about something else now, though. IO sets complicate things. Since IO sets seem to almost all include Endurance reducers, to get their full set bonuses one must almost always slot in End reduction anyway. Since Stamina's benefit to all active powers derives partially from less need to slot End reduction over other enhancements, what will the effect be on the popularity of IO sets?
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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I'm not at all convinced of this. I had a character who was thinking about stamina, but I couldn't really fit it in the build, so I frankenslotted for recovery bonuses. Got about 2/3 of the recovery that stamina (unslotted) would give... and that was plenty. No longer running out of blue.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
If you really thought about why most people choose Stamina for every single character they have, then you'll realize that those people can never have enough +recovery bonuses.
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When in the process, alternative benefits to implement more real choice are involved, yes.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
So, you want people to have to spend more slots to get the same benefit they have today, and you consider that a better result?
You can't just make a suggestion about how to "improve" the pool and then wave your hand at the fact that your suggestion actually makes the pool harder to use to the same benefit. |
I don't believe that the Fitness pool should exist even as inherent powers. Sucking wind between spawns is an issue of boredom, but there are other good, simple solutions for that (like getting rid of Rest's cooldown). If the base energy recovery rate is too low to maintain combat at a decently fun pace for most of the playerbase, it should simply be raised outright. Inherent Fitness still results in a non-choice, just a less onerous one.
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point