Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Only mixed feeling I have about the change, is concern over introducing yet more power creep into a game that already leans toward imbalance at the high end.
Quote:
Did you take Sarcasm 101 in grade school last year or does it come naturally to you? |
Originally Posted by Lillika
Ofcourse not OP, you aren't the only person with completely irrational thoughts.
|
This isn't about complaining because I don't like the fact that I get a free buff on all my characters. This is about the game taking on a different tone that I'm not sure I like. I'm not complaining about it. I've played this game since beta and will continue to do so for some time to come regardless of how it changes. Unlike some, I actually play the game for the challenge it can present, not to see how quickly I can get every toon from 1 to 50. I like strategizing over certain builds to make them work. I like figuring out whether I need certain powers or not (e.g. Stamina).
To me this seems like an "Easy Button" and that's why I have mixed feelings over it.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
Quote:
Your position isn't as irrational as some people are trying to make it seem. I get why they are doing it, but it is unwarranted.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
So we get Stamina at lvl 2 or something? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a "low-bie"?
Having inherent Stamina is cool but can we have Swift/Hurdle open at 6, Health open at 14 and Stamina open at 20? The game is already very easy as it is. I don't want having Stamina below lvl 15. I hope I am not the weird one.... I am excited about more power choices as those choices are going to be Recall Friend and maybe Aid Other on toons that can't heal. Nothing major change! |
Many players (especially in the rpg segment) like to feel that their character starts weak and grows to be very strong over the course of leveling and training. There is nothing wrong with that system and it has proved very very successful for many games.
CoX isn't abandoning that design principle, but this is indeed a step away from it and further makes playing a lvl 10 much more similar to playing a level 40 (I purposefully left out both extremes of leveling) than it was before this change.
Good or bad it is a change, so that will inherently cause some people to be apprehensive. I think it is a mostly positive change, but I can also understand where other people are coming from that aren't that exited by it. The only people I can't understand are those that are eagerly getting down on their knees over this change. It is hardly something that is worthy of that level of worship unless such people are similarly over-dramatic about all the changes in their lives.
Stamina was an albatross. I'm glad to see it moved to inherents, with absolutely no regrets.
Now I'd like to see some new Pool Powers though, to give us more options for branching out. Preferably something that is "laterally powerful" rather than "vertically powerful" like an ability that lets you see enemies on the map if they are within 300 ft, the ability to grab objects from across a room, the ability to create distractions that cause enemies to head toward another part of the room without detecting you, the ability to hold extra inspirations, etc. I think there's a lot of potential left for creating these kinds of things to make us spread out more in our choices.
There's only one thing that might annoy me from inherent stamina:
Seeing temp powers I never use spew onto my trays after I respec some characters.
But that's an issue with the respec system, not the change specifically. Most of my characters are just gonna end up taking more convenience powers, which is nice.
Culex's resistance guide
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
As for one slot powers... self rezzes, passives that get skipped, rezzes, build ups, taunt/confront... there's a lot of powers in sets that provided a benefit at one slot and often get binned just because there's no room to pick it as a power on endurance thirsty ATs.
|
The fitness pool powers will still need a variable amount of slotting for different builds, leaving a resource choice involved. IMO slot juggling is much more flexible and less annoying than wanting to get a neat and/or utility power to help in some situations and/or feel cooler but 'having' to spend the power choice on what amounts to a socket to plug enhancements into basic character attributes.
I wouldn't mind if they started out with zero slots and actually directly are the base character stats they affect, requiring a slot and enhancement to get any effect at all.
I have to fall back on the wise words of a friend of mine; when a thing becomes so commonplace that its absence is a form of aberrant behaviour, and where that aberrant behaviour is unhindered by being given the thing, the thing should be standard.
The developers are making it trickier to make bad characters. I recognise the caution this creates, but it's a very prudent thing to do, in a design sense.
Honest answer?
It was evident IN BETA, back before CoH went live the very first time (we're talking Issue 0 here), that two things elevated a character to a completely seperate, higher performance tier:
1. Taking Hasten and perma-ing it (very easy at the time).
2. Taking Stamina.
In my opinion, this change has been needed from Day 1, from before Day 1, specifically to prevent the formation of divergent and irreconcilable gameplay experiences due to truly separate performance classes. I cannot state this strongly enough.
Note that this originally also meant, prior to respecializing even being possible, that an effective character had to take either five or six pool powers within the first 20 levels (depending on whether Super Speed was the player's desired travel power). Playing through such a large portion of the game with such a small number of in-AT powers was... well, I'll just say there are reasons I feel strongly about this change being right. (Not that I'm bitter, heh.)
Much like the change in Defense And ToHit from being additive/subtractive to being multipliers, this is indeed a major shift but one that has also been a known issue from before Day 1. I am glad it is being addressed, I absolutely consider it necessary, but if one wanted to propose some alternate ways of awarding the powers besides making them fully active at lv. 1, here's a couple of ideas one could discuss:
1. Award them at the levels they would normally be choosable, for the sake of retaining the same flow and feel to character growth.
2. Make the powers do very little or even nothing until and unless they are slotted with an Enhancement by doing something like the following (using Health as an example):
Change Health to have a 60% enhanceable bonus to Regen and a -40% UNenhanceable penalty to Regen. At three SOs, roughly the same maximum value of Regen bonus (near 80%) is achieved. At zero Enhancements, 20% is gained. At one SO in the default slot, the same 40% effectiveness as the unslotted original power is gained.
Exact values resulting in nearly equivalent performance at default single-slotting and max slotting could likely be calculated. Similarly, the enhanceable bonus and unenhanceable penalty could be set to identical values (80% and -80%) to make the powers do literally nothing without slotting. Also, implementation could be very non-trivial despite apparent simplicity; I'm not meaning to imply the devs haven't already thought of this.
This does have the benefit of having the powers gradually ramp up as the player graduates from TO to DO to SO Enhancements, and it could theoretically be combined with awarding the powers at the same levels they currently become available, though the benefit of doing both rather than solely one is likely marginal.
Regardless, the above are presented solely as thought exercises, as I'm also not saying they're particularly good ideas. Instead, let me end by saying I stand by the opinion that making Fitness inherent is and has been needed, BADLY, for a long, long time.
Quote:
They could give them small values at level 1 and slowly increase it until it becomes the 'normal' values they are at level 20. That way, it makes pre-20 (especially pre-DO) levelling slightly easier and you still get that feeling of character growth.|
Originally Posted by WhyNot
1. Award them at the levels they would normally be choosable, for the sake of retaining the same flow and feel to character growth.
2. Make the powers do very little or even nothing until and unless they are slotted with an Enhancement by doing something like the following (using Health as an example): |
I play a lot of melee toons and most, if not all, of them take Stamina at 20. What this change means is that I can take other powers instead of having to save three 'mandatory' slots for the Fitness pool.
I eagerly await this change...
Mainly so I can finally and unabashedly make Move Man, the guy with all four travel power pools. Preferably with all 16 powers from said pools, though I might convince myself to skip the 4th powers.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
This is stated very very succinctly. I am annoyed about having to respec some of my older toons, but I certainly think the benefits will outweigh the cost of doing so.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I have to fall back on the wise words of a friend of mine; when a thing becomes so commonplace that its absence is a form of aberrant behaviour, and where that aberrant behaviour is unhindered by being given the thing, the thing should be standard.
The developers are making it trickier to make bad characters. I recognise the caution this creates, but it's a very prudent thing to do, in a design sense. |
To date- I have only made one character that didn't take fitness pool. My first villain to 50; a MM that I subsequently deleted.
Everytime this or just a stamina related discussion surfaces, there is always some element that appears that seems to say "I'm a better player than you because I don't need to take stamina on any of my toons." Said player is now feeling shafted because that smug superiority and over-inflated sense of self worth will be wiped away the first time he or she rolls a new toon in i19. To that, I say: Get over it!
I don't think a player's skill level can be determined by whether or not they take stamina on their toons. The only thing that is really going to change is that the people who might look down their noses at players that choose the fitness pool will have to look for a new reason to feel superior.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Quote:
I cannot state strongly enough how unhappy I would be if they chose to do this.
|
Originally Posted by WhyNot
1. Award them at the levels they would normally be choosable, for the sake of retaining the same flow and feel to character growth.
|
not sure where I have been, but where did this news come from??
I'm fine with fitness being made inherents, as long as there the slotted values, or allow slotting, overall it would mean I would be able to fit in other stuff in my builds.
Quote:
A good point, a lot of additions to this game have fueled the "power creep". Characters these days are much more powerful then they were before and yes, I do feel the game is getting a little too easy these days. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Only mixed feeling I have about the change, is concern over introducing yet more power creep into a game that already leans toward imbalance at the high end.
|
Having said that, I don't think Stamina in itself is going to be a direct contributer because everyone had it previously anyway.
Indirectly, it will definitly make the low level game much simpler as it facilitates people to pick up better powers earlier on, including ones which are quite the endurance intensive.
Quote:
Do you really think characters are more powerful now than they were in the days before ED and the GDN? Back when you could make hasten permanent on SOs? And health and stamina provided 1.5 times the bonus they do now? And there was no cap on aggro or AoE abilities? I don't think we've even reached those levels yet, let alone surpassed them.
|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
A good point, a lot of additions to this game have fueled the "power creep". Characters these days are much more powerful then they were before and yes, I do feel the game is getting a little too easy these days.
Having said that, I don't think Stamina in itself is going to be a direct contributer because everyone had it previously anyway. Indirectly, it will definitly make the low level game much simpler as it facilitates people to pick up better powers earlier on, including ones which are quite the endurance intensive. |
Have mixed feelings about that too.
It is a great change (especially for new players).
But why so late? I3 should have this 
Quote:
Yes.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Do you really think characters are more powerful now than they were in the days before ED and the GDN?
|
Quote:
| Back when you could make hasten permanent on SOs? |
Quote:
| And health and stamina provided 1.5 times the bonus they do now? |
Health is about 75% regen fully slotted now. So, what would you get pre-ED? 100%? 150%? My fire/shield scrapper runs close to 400% regen with IO's.
Stamina is about 50% recovery. What'd that max out pre-ED? Think it can match current recovery rates with all the +recovery from sets? Nope.
Quote:
| And there was no cap on aggro or AoE abilities? I don't think we've even reached those levels yet, let alone surpassed them. |
I see the concerns about power creep, but I wouldn't worry about it. The devs seem to basically want to bring up the average, while at the same time drawing back the high end, such as what they did to fury (I.E. make it easier to get and sustain, but make it almost impossibly harder to get to 100% Fury)
I think it'lll be like what they did with ED, power people down, but then power them back up with the Incarnate system.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Pitho
There's only one thing that might annoy me from inherent stamina:
Seeing temp powers I never use spew onto my trays after I respec some characters. But that's an issue with the respec system, not the change specifically. Most of my characters are just gonna end up taking more convenience powers, which is nice. |
/cleartray will fix this.
I really want to hear a comment whether or not we will be receiving additional slots.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
I think it's just for the sake of making the game more fun and removing the "grind" levels.
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
So we get Stamina at lvl 2 or something? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a "low-bie"?
Having inherent Stamina is cool but can we have Swift/Hurdle open at 6, Health open at 14 and Stamina open at 20? The game is already very easy as it is. I don't want having Stamina below lvl 15. I hope I am not the weird one.... |
@Joshua.
My $.02:
I don't particularly care for the change.
1. IMO, there simply aren't enough power pools to keep things interesting/varied as it is. Vet rewards already got rid of the prerequisites for travel, and ninja run lets you bypass travel entirely if you want... remove fitness, and what's left to pick from? Are we going to see 'City of Medics'? [Maybe if the App's/Ppp's opened up earlier...]
2. I liked having the option of challenging myself with fitnessless characters - like the electric/electric dominator I'm running now. Part of the fun is the balance in keeping enough mobs in the auras to keep my blue bar up without getting overwhelmed (same with my dark/fire brute).
[Don't get me wrong... I like the 25 minute ITF's on occasion, too. Like I said - *option*.]
3. I get the feeling we'll end up seeing another bout of complaints about the endurance management tools already provided. 'Conserve power sucks - it doesn't *do* anything'. So, what, everything's going to get the energy drain/energize treatment?
<Shrug>
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Quote:
I don't think that word means what you think it means. |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I think it's just for the sake of making the game more fun and removing the "grind" levels.
|
L1-20 are, by far, the shortest in the game.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
It's amazing to me at the amount of people not upset about this.... and Indeed it will make the game a lot easier low level and high level. Most of you people were complaining about the game be too easy as is... I guess some people well always be the devs lap dog. I personally, am happy with stamina as is and was going to remove it from my Dom build anyway , if it needed it, but making stamina inherit is irrelevant to my build, and this is by far a gifted horse. The only way it'd be a gifted horse as if they are putting in more pools to replace it and slots or maybe they are finally going to add some high lvl only power pools.
I'm waiting to see how it's actually going to happen.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)