Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Maybe for a veteran that knows exactly what powers what powers to take, what powers to avoid and what mob types to avoid.|
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
L1-20 are, by far, the shortest in the game. |
For a new player? Could easily be a grind.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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If you have to stop to rest after every fight, there's a problem other than lack of stamina - especially with the 3:1 insp conversion.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Unless you consider rate of action in your terminology of grind, because stopping to rest after every fight sure is grindy to me.
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If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Yeah, but with those criteria L40-50 would be even worse.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Maybe for a veteran that knows exactly what powers what powers to take, what powers to avoid and what mob types to avoid.
For a new player? Could easily be a grind. |
"Hey, who are these funny looking cowboys?"
"Where'd my endurance bar go? Why am I stuck in a block of ice?"
"Now I'm *puking*?!?!?!"
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Actually I realized after thinking about it that you won't have to respec if you haven't used your alternate builds. Since nothing changes with the existing character either to benefit or harm. That said the pain of using the alternate build would be having to find enhancements to slot which you wouldn't have a problem with if you repec your primary build. Ah well the fun of choices.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
This is stated very very succinctly. I am annoyed about having to respec some of my older toons, but I certainly think the benefits will outweigh the cost of doing so.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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Yes but while the higher powered characters are more powerful so are the weaker powered characters more powerful. And we are still far short of the power level of the most powerful characters that existed prior to ED and GDN.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Do you really think characters are more powerful now than they were in the days before ED and the GDN? Back when you could make hasten permanent on SOs? And health and stamina provided 1.5 times the bonus they do now? And there was no cap on aggro or AoE abilities? I don't think we've even reached those levels yet, let alone surpassed them.
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Basically ED & GDN narrowed the gap between the least powerful characters and the most powerful characters. The most powerful characters where gutted by these changes while the midpower and lower characters generally didn't see any change in the power of their characters.
Since that time the changes that have come along have acted to boost all characters in power while keeping the gap in power between the least and greatest narrower than it used to be. And this has allowed for nice things to be given to us of which making the fitness pool inherent is just the latest.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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I'm certain the answer to this is no.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I really want to hear a comment whether or not we will be receiving additional slots.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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Don't whine about wanting additional slots. You get three powers for free wha frickity boo hoo you don't have all the slots you might want for all the new powers you get.
If you don't want to waste slots and didn't use fitness... fine! Don't slot fitness.
If you still want an end challenge from characters originally without stamina... don't slot for end redux anymore!
Ooo. I'm sorry such big tactical changes are over so many people's heads.
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So... don't slot sets at all?
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Originally Posted by BenRGamer
If you still want an end challenge from characters originally without stamina... don't slot for end redux anymore!
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If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
As regards to getting stamina, Im kinda looking foreword to it,all thou you can start the power pool as low as lvl 6, and have stamina by lvl 20, for the average player this has become a standerd selection, so freeing up the extra slots would be a benefit
If it where to become inherent i would like to see it made slightly weaker requiring more slots to gain the same lvl as a 3 slotted Stamina (to make it both more challenging and interesting)while leaving open the fitness pool still for thus wishing to choose this (it would make an interesting combo in my opinion) allowing for extra IO bonuses and giving more Choice.
So i would say in short go ahead as long as it's implemented well and not as a straight replacement
Dr Abyss (EB/EB)Blaster(50)
Granny Jo (WP/MA) Tanker (46)
Prince Damion (DA/DM) Tanker (49)
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Luna Gold (Fire,Kinetic) Controller (50)
No, but if you never got stamina, and suddenly you get it for free, why worry about slotting it if you didn't need it in the first place?
Or, if you had it, still slot it. There are plenty of powers that don't need additional slots to be good, like has already been mentioned.
Running out of end because you choose not to take stamina or don't have it yet doesn't make the game challenging, just annoying.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I can understand thematic complaints, plus those coming from a standpoint of making the game "too easy". The former would never bother me for any character, and I don't agree with the latter in the slightest, but I can certainly dig where you're coming from there.
What I don't get, at all, is the "Now we'll be short on slots" argument. Unless you're taking your three new free powers and slotting them, slotting will be exactly the same. There are quite a few powers which need no slotting whatsoever. Even if you have no need for them at all, take them, remove them from your power tray, carry on as usual. Even powers that "only" benefit if slotted can simply be taken then ignored, as they're freebies, and if you WERE going to take them you still would've had to allot slots for them anyway.
I mean, granted, I've seen at least one other poster who seemed to argue that every power ever taken needed at least three slots no matter what. I don't get it...OCD, feng shui, consistency, some idea that all powers must operate at 195% effectiveness even if it's not strictly necessary? Surely these are edge cases.
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The majority of my builds do not have Stamina (nor is it planned for them). Yes, I was dismayed upon hearing that Stamina was going inherent.|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I must say that when I found out about Stamina becoming inherent, rather than being happy about it I was somewhat dismayed. While on some builds it will be very nice for me, I have been working on a number of stamina-less characters and been having fun with it.
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My first thought was, "The whiner-babies won".
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Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I would much rather see a new inherent that, while not full Stamina, gives +end recovery that makes Stamina less of a required power. I had actually thought very early on in CoH that it would be good to have an inherent power choice you make early on that would give you one of the following auto powers (unenhanceable):
- End recovery (like 20%) - Regen (like 30%) - Run speed (little less than sprint ~35%) - Jump (like 50%) - Resistance (5-10% maybe?) - Defense (3%) - Damage (10%) - Mez Resistance (not mag resist, but time reduction) - More? |
For some people, there is no such thing as too much +recovery. If there were 4 power pools that had access to various forms of +recovery, they would take all 4 pools. Why? Because their Endurance bar twitches.
Of course, now they would have a problem with damage, both dealing and mitigation, and would complain about that. In addition to needing more +recovery.
Yes, that is an exaggeration. But, I don't think it's overly exaggerated.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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So make it easier for those that can manage their builds ok without stamina and make the bluebar meaningless to those that take it?|
Originally Posted by Dr Abyss
As regards to getting stamina, Im kinda looking foreword to it,all thou you can start the power pool as low as lvl 6, and have stamina by lvl 20, for the average player this has become a standerd selection, so freeing up the extra slots would be a benefit
If it where to become inherent i would like to see it made slightly weaker requiring more slots to gain the same lvl as a 3 slotted Stamina (to make it both more challenging and interesting)while leaving open the fitness pool still for thus wishing to choose this (it would make an interesting combo in my opinion) allowing for extra IO bonuses and giving more Choice. So i would say in short go ahead as long as it's implemented well and not as a straight replacement |
Um no.
This change will accomplish the first without having to deal with the problems that the second would create.
No mixed feelings here. I really don't understand all the crying about this either.
-But I am doing just fine on my build without stamina.
Fine, as a reward for being able to build a toon without the need for stamina you get to run faster, jump higher, heal faster and recover faster and will only cost you a respec that you will be given for free. If we are lucky, we will get 2 respecs since some of us have 2 builds on each toon. If you are really that against the change, dont respec.
-But my concept does not include hurdle or swift let alone health and stamina.
Ok does your concept explain why you can run forever at over 14 mph (not counting swift or sprint) or explain how you can have a vertical leap higher than any NBA superstar? I don't understand how someone can explain a concept that includes shooting ice from their hands, being able to manipulate electricity and being able to come back from the dead in a massive burning fireball, but they cannot explain why they can heal a little faster or recover energy slightly faster than your average human. If your issue is concept, then you will have to change your concept a little. The other option is don't respec and you will still fit the concept for that toon. For new toons you may have to exert your brain just a little bit more to come up with a concept that includes the fitness pool as an inherent.
-But now I will have 3 more powers that I cannot put slots in. And I dont want them to go to waste.
Option one, dont respec, then you will not have to worry about the stress of having to pick 3 extra powers. Option 2 pick 3 powers and do not put them in your tray.
-But then I would have 3 powers that would just go to waste and I would never use.
So what? Do you still eat that fruitcake your crazy neighbor makes you every Christmas that tastes like a$$? No you toss it in the trash. Honestly if you cannot find 3 powers that you can use even every once in a while that only take up one slot, the problem is you. If you think it is not possible, PM me with your mids build and Ill find 3 powers for you. But if you are really that dead set against taking powers you will probably never use, dont respec.
If the people who were feeling smug about not needing Stamina are whining about "the whiners winning", I don't care, honestly.
Sure, I could make characters that could run without Stamina easily, but why would I do that when I can get much higher levels of performance with the same investment of time/inf in making the build while taking Stamina?
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
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Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I didn't think about this. I suppose tweaked out high-end builds can surpass what people could do in the days before ED and GDN. However, someone who still plays with SOs or uses frankenslotting, or uses a mix of SOs and IOs, or even people who just use cheap set IOs for the enhancement values and not the set bonuses is significantly less powerful.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Yes.
Great. 70% recharge. Awesome. I have a number of characters now who run global recharge rates of close to 180%. That's 2.5 times better than pre-ED perma-hasten. Miracle + Numina + Regen Tissue unique + Perf Shifter % for end. Health is about 75% regen fully slotted now. So, what would you get pre-ED? 100%? 150%? My fire/shield scrapper runs close to 400% regen with IO's. Stamina is about 50% recovery. What'd that max out pre-ED? Think it can match current recovery rates with all the +recovery from sets? Nope. Neither of which have anything to do with the actual power of the characters themselves. |
That's not exactly power creep. It's just widening the gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.
lol. I can't believe there are people complaining about getting improved performance and more build flexibility.
Wwaaa, Im tuffer then joo. I dun neid know stinken sta-men-uh.
Congratulations, you won the game. You're awesome, the bomb, etc. Let's face it, there's nothing wrong with making the game slightly easier. It's already a hundred percent easier than most MMOs out there. This will make it one hundred and one, instead.
Now. If you'll excuse me, I have to go solo an MoLRSF on my petless MM to show just how much more awesomer I am than joo.
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And yet, somehow, they feel like the longest, slowest grind that exists in this game.
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Originally Posted by HacknSlash
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
L1-20 are, by far, the shortest in the game. |
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Well, like someone quoted on here, there are people who would complain if NCsoft paid you to play the game. Some people just aren't happy unless they're whining about something.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
lol. I can't believe there are people complaining about getting improved performance and more build flexibility.
Wwaaa, Im tuffer then joo. I dun neid know stinken sta-men-uh. Congratulations, you won the game. You're awesome, the bomb, etc. Let's face it, there's nothing wrong with making the game slightly easier. It's already a hundred percent easier than most MMOs out there. This will make it one hundred and one, instead. Now. If you'll excuse me, I have to go solo an MoLRSF on my petless MM to show just how much more awesomer I am than joo. |
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Agreed. I'm not happy about this, but I've actually been that kind of person before. Cynicism is contagious.
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Originally Posted by firespray
Well, like someone quoted on here, there are people who would complain if NCsoft paid you to play the game. Some people just aren't happy unless they're whining about something.
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at the low levels I run at default difficulty not because I want to, but because clearing missions takes too long if I have to hang out puffing and panting between spawns.|
Originally Posted by Novawulfe
It's amazing to me at the amount of people not upset about this.... and Indeed it will make the game a lot easier low level and high level.
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with inherent stamina I'll be able to bump up my difficulty much, much sooner than I usually do. So inherent stamina will make my early game more difficult.
At the higher levels replacing a couple of boring prerequisites with other stuff isn't going to appreciably alter game balance given the way any competently built character can steamroll content.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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That last statement is what i don't get about all of this arguing, we have people saying that the extra powers aren't going to do anything because we don't have slots for them and then we have people saying that those 3 powers without slots are going to completely unbalance the game with more power creep.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
at the low levels I run at default difficulty not because I want to, but because clearing missions takes too long if I have to hang out puffing and panting between spawns.
with inherent stamina I'll be able to bump up my difficulty much, much sooner than I usually do. So inherent stamina will make my early game more difficult. At the higher levels replacing a couple of boring prerequisites with other stuff isn't going to appreciably alter game balance given the way any competently built character can steamroll content. |
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Levels 1-20 are like an uphill trudge. They are the proverbial watched pot from which you cannot look away until it comes to a boil. Getting Stamina early will help, but it will still be a bt of an annoying trudge to climb 20 levels to reach a level of power that seems more fitting for a level 1 superhero. Perception is a key ingredient of grind.
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Originally Posted by HacknSlash
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
L1-20 are, by far, the shortest in the game. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
L1-20 are, by far, the shortest in the game.