Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I cant believe people are complaning about a FREE power pool. You realize that also means you have more power pools to pick from now since fitness is inherent that means more possibilities to customize your character. Been plaing for 28 months and I always hear everyone complain that they can't wait to lvl 20 to get Stamina but hate having to put power selection off because of having to take 2 prerequisites, now the devs give it to us for free and we complain to! I guess you can't please everyone regardless of what you do. Devs this is awesome thanks dont change your mind please!
The complaint is not getting free powers. The complaint is that this game has developed the physics law "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Also stated previously as "unforeseen consequences" that may occur.
I think we are all hoping for the best, but we really won't know until several months after the change is made.
Let's keep our fingers crossed.
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More endurance maybe but people also had HO's fully slotted out at 50% each spec before the nerfs |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I even disagree with the 'lower end' argument. Since you mentioned frankenslotting, let's look at that.
Pre-ED a player could slot a power with 6 SO's. Assuming an attack power slotted with 6 +3 SO's, that'd be a total enhancement value of about 230% in that one power. Frankenslotting with set IO's would give the same player a total enhancement value for that 6 slotted power of anywhere from 260% to over 350% depending on mixture of double, triple & quad aspect IO's used. Granted, the pre-ED player with 1 ACC, 5 DMG is going to hit harder. He's also going to miss more, use more endurance per attack, and attack much slower. Overall, less effective. In any event, I'm not sure comparing pre-ED and post-ED performance levels really has much relevance to the current concern of power creep that I mentioned. The game has changed. Game mechanics are different. We have new powersets, new AT's, new devs. The overall design 'philosophy' seems to be much different than what it was originally. I'm certainly not suggesting that this change is going to "unbalance the game" as one poster mentioned, or anything of the sort. Heck, I'm not even opposed to the change. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with my characters with the build flexibility this is going to allow. I'm just concerned about the direction we seem to be moving in. Inherent fitness is not going to be any kind of tipping point for game balance, but I think it does move us further along that road. At what point does the game become 'too easy'? I think that's a legitimate question to ask, when we have players that can solo Giant Monsters, solo AV's, or solo entire TF's that are designed around a team of 8 players. Heck, a player recently completed the RSF solo, which is arguably just about the hardest end-game content we have. I recently convinced my sister, who is a vet of several other MMO's including the big one, to come over and check out CoH. I was explaining to her some of the differences about CoH's game mechanics and how the right buffs & debuffs could turn a team into a steamroller, how powerful individual characters could be, and how much fun I thought our game was. Her response? "Well that sounds dumb. What's the point in playing a multiplayer game that is that easy?" She played for a couple weeks, got bored and left. To some extent, I can see her point... |
Also Hasten was perma with 6 slots and gave 5% defense so you had your recharge without slotting you did not need global recharge so other than endurance I do not see much and if you farmed HO's you could hit so stupid #'s still
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Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
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I don't think so. I've put hasten on a couple of characters, but only a couple maybe. Fitness, I have on nearly everyone who isn't a mastermind.
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Originally Posted by _23X_
while we are getting free fitness "because everyone uses it" can we get free Hasten as well. I am sure the same everyone that picks fitness also picks hasten.
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ED... ED!!!|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I would be very unhappy if the Devs started balancing the entire game around the Incarnate system. I've played "end game" MMO's before where this was done and it absolutely sucks. In that type of scenario certain builds/classes don't actually work correctly until you are at the cap or very near the cap. Given that CoH has always been about the journey, not the destination, such shenanigans in this game would be guaranteed to chase me away almost instantly.
But I suppose that isn't really relevant to this particular conversation. I just don't like the idea of an "end game" in CoH at all, but we'll see how it goes. |
This is exactly what was done with ED.
They cut everything with the intention of balancing around Io's later... those issues between ED and Io... were some of the worst, darkest, most boring gameplay this game has ever seen.
I played for like 2 months in that year and half or so, the game was so terrible.
We dont need that again.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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What?!|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
ED... ED!!!
This is exactly what was done with ED. They cut everything with the intention of balancing around Io's later... those issues between ED and Io... were some of the worst, darkest, most boring gameplay this game has ever seen. I played for like 2 months in that year and half or so, the game was so terrible. We dont need that again. |
Excuse me, but I was playing around that time too, and I don't think we're talking about the same game at all. Or are you one of the people that actually thought it was perfectly fine for a Tanker to round up literally entire maps and aoe them all down with Burn with absolutely no team support at all?
Also, to my knowledge the Devs have never stated that IO's were the reason behind the GDN or ED. I do recall them stating they felt the game was out of whack and needed adjusting at the time though.
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I think this is more an argument for Hasten not existing, period.
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Originally Posted by _23X_
while we are getting free fitness "because everyone uses it" can we get free Hasten as well. I am sure the same everyone that picks fitness also picks hasten.
also we'll need hasten that much more no so we can burn through all the extra endurance we'll have now. Or is that too much to ask right now ... yeah may need to wait an issue or two. |
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I was playing through that time as well. The Global Defense Adjustment and Enhancement Diversification were both badly needed for the game to be anywhere near balanced. A single hero, no matter what AT they are, should not be able to aggro an entire map at once and survive.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
What?!
Excuse me, but I was playing around that time too, and I don't think we're talking about the same game at all. Or are you one of the people that actually thought it was perfectly fine for a Tanker to round up literally entire maps and aoe them all down with Burn with absolutely no team support at all? Also, to my knowledge the Devs have never stated that IO's were the reason behind the GDN or ED. I do recall them stating they felt the game was out of whack and needed adjusting at the time though. |
Then again, I'm that odd-ball freak blah blah blah.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Not that odd, really. I think a lot of us that have been around that long realize that without the changes in Issues 5 and 6 the game wouldn't have lasted. As you said, the game back then was terribly imbalanced.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I was playing through that time as well. The Global Defense Adjustment and Enhancement Diversification were both badly needed for the game to be anywhere near balanced. A single hero, no matter what AT they are, should not be able to aggro an entire map at once and survive.
Then again, I'm that odd-ball freak blah blah blah. |
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The biggest issue with ED and global reduction was Jack's handling of the issues and his disingenuous approach on the subject.In fact I think Jack's PR side hurt the COV launch the numbers where no where near what the hype that was coming out around initially and it had to do with ED. The word of month PR hurt the game and his bad bedside manner and pandering oh we want you to use more variety of enhancement but this is not a nerf was a terrible PR disaster. |
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I was playing through that time as well. The Global Defense Adjustment and Enhancement Diversification were both badly needed for the game to be anywhere near balanced. A single hero, no matter what AT they are, should not be able to aggro an entire map at once and survive.
Then again, I'm that odd-ball freak blah blah blah. |
Yes the nerfs where needed it was way out of whack and no we are not even close to the stupid stuff people did back then.
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Amen to that. I'll never forget his "Vision" post and all the flames that monstrosity caused.
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
The biggest issue with ED and global reduction was Jack's handling of the issues and his disingenuous approach on the subject.In fact I think Jack's PR side hurt the COV launch the numbers where no where near what the hype that was coming out around initially and it had to do with ED. The word of month PR hurt the game and his bad bedside manner and pandering oh we want you to use more variety of enhancement but this is not a nerf was a terrible PR disaster.
Yes the nerfs where needed it was way out of whack and no we are not even close to the stupid stuff people did back then. |
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I remember Tankers just about died back then so did blasters, everyone was a scrapper/cont/defender|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
What?!
Excuse me, but I was playing around that time too, and I don't think we're talking about the same game at all. Or are you one of the people that actually thought it was perfectly fine for a Tanker to round up literally entire maps and aoe them all down with Burn with absolutely no team support at all? Also, to my knowledge the Devs have never stated that IO's were the reason behind the GDN or ED. I do recall them stating they felt the game was out of whack and needed adjusting at the time though. |
Who wants a tank that couldnt survive an 8 person spawn (they couldnt), or a blaster who did poor damage (they did)
They said very specifically that ED was put in because they couldnt add anything else to the game with the numbers this high and they had something in the works they wanted to do.
At the time it was skills, which later evolved into Io's
and yes the game SUCKED hard between i7 and i9.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Actually I had a blast between those issues. Just goes to show no matter what the Devs do they can't make everyone happy. I'm not ready to cry Doom because of inherent Fitness though. After all we have different folks in charge these days and they seem (to me) to be more concerned with fun factor than a grandiose "vision" of how the game should be played.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
I remember Tankers just about died back then so did blasters, everyone was a scrapper/cont/defender
Who wants a tank that couldnt survive an 8 person spawn (they couldnt), or a blaster who did poor damage (they did) They said very specifically that ED was put in because they couldnt add anything else to the game with the numbers this high and they had something in the works they wanted to do. At the time it was skills, which later evolved into Io's and yes the game SUCKED hard between i7 and i9. |
Something tell the new Fitness won't be as good as the Power Pool Version, if We Still don't get enough Stamina form the new Inherent Power Version, then I rather stick with the Power Pool Version thank you Very Much.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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How fortunate that it has been said that inherent Stamina will not have the values changed.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Something tell the new Fitness won't be as good as the Power Pool Version, if We Still don't get enough Stamina form the new Inherent Power Version, then I rather stick with the Power Pool Version thank you Very Much.
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Don't ruin some potent DOOOM predictions thanks!|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
How fortunate that it has been said that inherent Stamina will not have the values changed.
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/is sorry
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Agreed. Mister Emmert's People skills left a lot to be desired. However, I recall many people complaining that the game was unplayable afterwards. Which, I found to not be true. Considering, I played through those changes on various ATs, and managed quite well. But then (you knew it was coming), I never expected to survive spawns for 8 players while solo either.|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
The biggest issue with ED and global reduction was Jack's handling of the issues and his disingenuous approach on the subject.In fact I think Jack's PR side hurt the COV launch the numbers where no where near what the hype that was coming out around initially and it had to do with ED. The word of month PR hurt the game and his bad bedside manner and pandering oh we want you to use more variety of enhancement but this is not a nerf was a terrible PR disaster.
Yes the nerfs where needed it was way out of whack and no we are not even close to the stupid stuff people did back then. |
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Amen to that. I'll never forget his "Vision" post and all the flames that monstrosity caused.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
this whole post is just proof that the DEVs cant do anything in this game that will make us all happy. they give us a free gift and we say "oh umm, you couldnt get me something better?" sad sad sad
RED CAP DAGGERS: if you want them red side on infinity, send a pm i have the mission to get them for dual blades.
Oh no, it isnt that we are not grateful. Its that everything must be paid for. You wanna feel super? Beat up greys or shell out gobs of money and be extremely patient and lvl 50 and usuing one of the 2 or three toons that can farm.
The devs have proven time and again that they can nerf the crap out of everything they touch. Sure they 'balance' things when they feel like it, but how long does it take between a nerf (see fire armor and invun after ed) and a balance (see fire armor and invun just recent buffs)?
It took the devs how long between ED and the Io system? About a year...all the while 'this is good enough, ED is the greatest not a nerf ever!!!'
These Devs arent the great messiah that people claim. In fact, except for maybe a couple of posters, they dont listen to thier userbase at all.
See Market Merger......oddly enough whatever idiotic meltdown they predicted to happen.....hasnt happened.
See Energy Melee doing less single target damage than any other set.....despite it being a single target set.
Bases
Yeah, and its been suggested that Stamina be inherent. They never commented on it, but Fanbois came out of the woodwork and proclaimed that Stamina isnt needed......
Maybe if the dev team actually listened to thier players instead of thier select fainbois/girl this game would be a lil better and alot different in a good way.
Of course they never listen to us.
Oh, and what's a fainbois? sounds French.
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Whether you like what the Devs had done to the game currently and in the past depends on your playstyle.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Freak
Oh no, it isnt that we are not grateful. Its that everything must be paid for. You wanna feel super? Beat up greys or shell out gobs of money and be extremely patient and lvl 50 and usuing one of the 2 or three toons that can farm.
The devs have proven time and again that they can nerf the crap out of everything they touch. Sure they 'balance' things when they feel like it, but how long does it take between a nerf (see fire armor and invun after ed) and a balance (see fire armor and invun just recent buffs)? It took the devs how long between ED and the Io system? About a year...all the while 'this is good enough, ED is the greatest not a nerf ever!!!' These Devs arent the great messiah that people claim. In fact, except for maybe a couple of posters, they dont listen to thier userbase at all. See Market Merger......oddly enough whatever idiotic meltdown they predicted to happen.....hasnt happened. See Energy Melee doing less single target damage than any other set.....despite it being a single target set. Bases Yeah, and its been suggested that Stamina be inherent. They never commented on it, but Fanbois came out of the woodwork and proclaimed that Stamina isnt needed...... Maybe if the dev team actually listened to thier players instead of thier select fainbois/girl this game would be a lil better and alot different in a good way. |
I guess you're tossing my in the "fanboi" category. I never thought that Stamina was needed. I have many builds without it, and they do just fine.
Whether the game would be different "in a good way" or not is a subjective opinion. I would hazard that your definition of "in a good way" and mine would be vastly different, judging from some of the opinions you have in your post.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Just because you have Stamina at the lower levels doesn't mean everyone's end problems are going to magically disappear.
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Originally Posted by Nicetry
Your position isn't as irrational as some people are trying to make it seem. I get why they are doing it, but it is unwarranted.
Many players (especially in the rpg segment) like to feel that their character starts weak and grows to be very strong over the course of leveling and training. There is nothing wrong with that system and it has proved very very successful for many games. CoX isn't abandoning that design principle, but this is indeed a step away from it and further makes playing a lvl 10 much more similar to playing a level 40 (I purposefully left out both extremes of leveling) than it was before this change. Good or bad it is a change, so that will inherently cause some people to be apprehensive. I think it is a mostly positive change, but I can also understand where other people are coming from that aren't that exited by it. The only people I can't understand are those that are eagerly getting down on their knees over this change. It is hardly something that is worthy of that level of worship unless such people are similarly over-dramatic about all the changes in their lives. |
the game is already ridiculously easy as it is with overpowered heroes mowing down mobs by the trillions. The post 32 game is where CoH really tails off. There's no longer any need to play at optimum with death largely being meaningless.
The biggest problem with this fitness pool inherent is the fact that now leadership will be carried by many more toons resulting in even more to-hit, +dmg and veng parties. My guess is this a response to the large numbers of people playing solo....trying to enjoy the content their rapidly outlevelling lmao.
Imo the leadership pool should become a defender/troller exclusive imo.
The other thing is, can we have some more slots now for the 3 new powers I'm gonna slot?
To answer your original question, yes (tongue in cheek answer).
Apparently according to this thread, you're not the only person.
I too hope for a few more placeable slots.
To address Peacemoon, I hear you, but I think the newer content may address this directly - I foresee tougher opponents coming our way, and possibly more 'epic' content (epic like as in, big/strong, not like for the HEATs/VEATs.)
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