Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This is kind of a dumb reply.
I work 50+ hours a week on all shifts all the time.....
so I am not the most "alert" person in the world lately. 
So NEW toons created recently have an inherent stamina "built in" then???
For how long has this escaped my eyes? LOL 
I created a KM Brute in Praetoria that I have gotten to 14 slowly but I'll be damned if I can tell it has some sorta built in stamina.
Runs thru end like a **** actually.
Actually it runs thru end just like any other toon I have created in the last 4 years. 
So if this is all true......
I could respec any of my dozen or so 50s and see how they would perform WITHOUT the fitness pool then??
Kinda scary to take that chance if I am overall happy with end issues with most of them and such.
I am just a little confused is all.
That KM Brute is the only new toon I have created since GR went live.
Most of my playing time that I have squeezed in has been pre-occupied with side-switching and stuff 
@Patrick Magellen
Infinity & Freedom Servers!
Quote:
It was announced by the Devs that Inherent Fitness WILL BE COMING IN I-19. We don't have it yet.
|
Originally Posted by Magellen
This is kind of a dumb reply.
I work 50+ hours a week on all shifts all the time..... so I am not the most "alert" person in the world lately. So NEW toons created recently have an inherent stamina "built in" then??? For how long has this escaped my eyes? LOL I created a KM Brute in Praetoria that I have gotten to 14 slowly but I'll be damned if I can tell it has some sorta built in stamina. Runs thru end like a **** actually. Actually it runs thru end just like any other toon I have created in the last 4 years. So if this is all true...... I could respec any of my dozen or so 50s and see how they would perform WITHOUT the fitness pool then?? Kinda scary to take that chance if I am overall happy with end issues with most of them and such. I am just a little confused is all. That KM Brute is the only new toon I have created since GR went live. Most of my playing time that I have squeezed in has been pre-occupied with side-switching and stuff |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Cool to hear....
danke mucho
@Patrick Magellen
Infinity & Freedom Servers!
Quote:
Er... balanced? Now? Roll up a Mastermind. |
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I was playing through that time as well. The Global Defense Adjustment and Enhancement Diversification were both badly needed for the game to be anywhere near balanced. A single hero, no matter what AT they are, should not be able to aggro an entire map at once and survive.
Then again, I'm that odd-ball freak blah blah blah. |
Fortunately, CoH is not and hasn't ever been balanced. "Balance" is what gets in the way of superhero simulation (software toy) which is the strong point of CoH.
I'm not playing CoH as a game. If I was I'd be bored out of my Skuls.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Quote:
My only possible response to your post: "Three +1 Minions".
|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I have felt that Stamina never should have been in this game in the first place.
|
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Quote:
So, you're saying that a Mastermind can take the simultaneous aggro of 100+ even level mobs and survive? I'll have to call you a liar for that one.|
Originally Posted by Great_Scott
Er... balanced? Now? Roll up a Mastermind.
|
I have several Masterminds. not even my level 50 can take on an entire map of even level minions and survive. Let alone, the Lts and Bosses.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Great_Scott
My only possible response to your post: "Three +1 Minions".
|
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Quote:
I'm not sure what your (accurate) observation has to do with your earlier post. My quote is the developer's targeted balance goal for this game: 3 +1 minions should be a minor but meaningful challenge for a balanced character.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Doable without Stamina. In fact, +1 bosses are doable without Stamina. Maybe not 3 +1 bosses. I have managed 2 +1 bosses without Stamina. I can't say whether I would have needed Stamina on 3 +1 bosses. My health was more of the determining factor in that situation than my Endurance.
|
So, any character not challenged by 3 +1 minions is literally overpowered. It's highly likely that every single character in the game over level 22 exceeds that standard. Which is one of the many reasons that balance discussions puzzle me. They fixate on one small drop in a big ocean.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Quote:
What does it say about the mindset of an individual who has mixed feelings about what is essentially a buff to endurance recovery, regeneration rate and movement speed at the levels we lovingly refer to the "pre-level 20 grind?"|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I must say that when I found out about Stamina becoming inherent, rather than being happy about it I was somewhat dismayed. While on some builds it will be very nice for me, I have been working on a number of stamina-less characters and been having fun with it.
|
You mention working on a number of stamina-less and having fun...so your mixed feelings come from having a sense of accomplishment taken away from you?
I find this sentiment odd...very odd actually. It's the primary reason I did not place a post until the thread had reached the eleventh page.
So to close my post, we have members of the CoX community who have mixed feelings about characters receiving buffs to endurance recovery, regeneration rate and movement speeds at level 4.
Quote:
This. No sane person can honestly claim endurance isn't an issue in this game, especially during levels 1-22, and it's a flat out PITA for most players, which is supported by the fact almost every build has stamina in it. The fact it's so rare that stamina is skipped proves the fact that endurance usage is excessive in this game, which is why the devs have decided to make this move, and it's a great decision.
|
Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
Well... my only guess as to why you have a problem with inherent stamina
is that you like bragging on how you " Have several builds without stamina" |
my only beef with inherent stamina is we don't have it yet.
As I go through Praetoria- fighting all those higher levels with their holds, and sleeps, and ...Damnage.... I'm looking at this lvl 20 +recovery enh I can't slot. I'm looking at what used to be a bar of blue, which pretty much stays empty. I curse this with all my carrot enthused might.
Sure is a beautiful zone though.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Quote:
Not even close. But then, I'm a newbie at the game, and the character is only 33 or so.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Everyone has their own opinion.
Now that that character doesn't sun out of blue. Are you taking him up against the max difficulty in missions? |
Quote:
| If you do decide to take him (or her/or it) up against the max difficulty in missions, are you going to complain that you run out of blue every fight and want more +recovery to compensate? |
Quote:
|
However, the arguments are really moot, since the Devs have decided to make the Fitness pool inherent. Much to my disappointment. I have felt that Stamina never should have been in this game in the first place. |
Quote:
Masterminds are special, their attacks basically have their own endurance bars.
|
Originally Posted by seebs
Probably not. Note that it's a bots/traps mastermind, so I don't really run out of blue faster on harder fights noticably -- there's just not that much for me to do.
|
Culex's resistance guide
Quote:
It says that I like a challenge and either fitting Stamina into a build or designing a character without adds to the challenge. It also adds to the uniqueness of each individual build. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, but I think you could accomplish essentially the same thing by giving an inherent power that slightly boosts recovery. Then you can get to the level of endurance/recovery you need by:|
Originally Posted by milehigh77
What does it say about the mindset of an individual who has mixed feelings about what is essentially a buff to endurance recovery, regeneration rate and movement speed at the levels we lovingly refer to the "pre-level 20 grind?"
|
1) Getting stamina
2) Choosing a power set with a +rec power
3) Utilizing IO builds
With this change it takes the +rec powers and diminishes their importance. As an example, it's relatively straight forward to have a stamina-less /Regen scrapper. In fact, it's one of the benefits of that set. Inherent Stamina makes that set slightly less appealing. The same is true for Rad/ or /Rad, Elec Control, Kinetics, Cold, etc. that have +rec or endurance "healing" powers against which you could have Stamina-less builds.
Quote:
|
You mention working on a number of stamina-less and having fun...so your mixed feelings come from having a sense of accomplishment taken away from you? I find this sentiment odd...very odd actually. It's the primary reason I did not place a post until the thread had reached the eleventh page. So to close my post, we have members of the CoX community who have mixed feelings about characters receiving buffs to endurance recovery, regeneration rate and movement speeds at level 4. |
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
Quote:
Let me start by saying that Fitness seemed like too much of a buff to me: I would have been happy with just getting an end recovery mechanism for the first 20 levels like Beginner's Luck. I'm not going to argue against getting it, though.|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
It says that I like a challenge and either fitting Stamina into a build or designing a character without adds to the challenge. It also adds to the uniqueness of each individual build. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, but I think you could accomplish essentially the same thing by giving an inherent power that slightly boosts recovery. Then you can get to the level of endurance/recovery you need by:
1) Getting stamina 2) Choosing a power set with a +rec power 3) Utilizing IO builds With this change it takes the +rec powers and diminishes their importance. As an example, it's relatively straight forward to have a stamina-less /Regen scrapper. In fact, it's one of the benefits of that set. Inherent Stamina makes that set slightly less appealing. The same is true for Rad/ or /Rad, Elec Control, Kinetics, Cold, etc. that have +rec or endurance "healing" powers against which you could have Stamina-less builds. It seems we also have people who want an easy button. I'm not one of them. |
I think calling inherent Stamina an easy button is overdoing it, however, and saying Inherent Stamina takes something from powers that buff recovery is a bit much as well. My Willpower and Regen characters don't get Stamina right now, but there are plenty of people that don't want to go without Stamina on those types of builds as it is.
Challenge is entirely subjective as well. You'll have a new baseline of performance to run with now, and you can find new things to challenge yourself with: after Inherent Fitness, I would say fitting in three more powers without more slots is a decent challenge for builds. And of course, you can always up the difficulty of your missions or go for other challenges in the fighting arena.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
And, how does that have anything to do with Stamina? Or whether Stamina should have ever been in the game in the first place?
|
Originally Posted by Great_Scott
I'm not sure what your (accurate) observation has to do with your earlier post. My quote is the developer's targeted balance goal for this game: 3 +1 minions should be a minor but meaningful challenge for a balanced character.
So, any character not challenged by 3 +1 minions is literally overpowered. It's highly likely that every single character in the game over level 22 exceeds that standard. Which is one of the many reasons that balance discussions puzzle me. They fixate on one small drop in a big ocean. |
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Quote:
/\|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Let me start by saying that Fitness seemed like too much of a buff to me:
|
This is the whole point. Not relative level of difficulty, not people wanting an easy button, but that taking Stamina provides such a global buff to character performance and reduction in downtime that to otherwise match it requires tightly-designed builds and/or expensive IO set synergies. That's not good design.
Personally, I would eliminate Stamina altogether, play with the base recovery rate, and eliminate the cooldown on Rest. But taking Stamina out of the power choice structure where it currently resides as the 800-lb gorilla in the room and making it inherent is better, at least.
Quote:
0-100 endurance times:|
Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
/\
This is the whole point. Not relative level of difficulty, not people wanting an easy button, but that taking Stamina provides such a global buff to character performance and reduction in downtime that to otherwise match it requires tightly-designed builds and/or expensive IO set synergies. That's not good design. |
Without stamina: 60 seconds.
With Numina: 54.4 seconds.
With Miracle: 52.1 seconds.
With stamina: 47.9 seconds.
With quick recovery: 46.1 seconds.
With 3 L50 IO's in stamina: 40 seconds.
With 3 L50 IO's in quick recovery: 37.5 seconds.
QR + Stamina, fully slotted: 28.6 seconds.
QR, Stamina, Physical Perfection: 25.5 seconds.
QR, Stamina, PP, Numina, Miracle: 23.1 seconds.
With rest: 11.4 seconds + 6 second cast = 17.4 seconds.
So... what would be good?
Make the baseline 50 seconds, maybe 40 with 2 L50 IO's in stamina?
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Quote:
For 0-100 post-encounter, 17 seconds consistently, by removing the cooldown on Rest |
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
So... what would be good?
Make the baseline 50 seconds, maybe 40 with 2 L50 IO's in stamina? |
But coming up with a good balance point for in-combat energy regen is hard, and it's also entirely arbitrary based on the balance point the devs want to set to try and make the game enjoyable. Personally, I think we should be able to charge the bar in a matter of seconds and have most clickies eat 1/4-1/2 (or sometimes all) of the bar, but that's because I actually really like Champions' combat mechanics*. Even in the context of CoH's system, though, I think that characters get tired way too easily at the basic recovery rate, so I would personally prefer it higher. Even if that meant giving NPCs a little buff at the same time.
*Though that's just about the only thing to like.
Quote:
I did not like spending half my time "autoattacking".
|
Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
but that's because I actually really like Champions' combat mechanics*.
|
Culex's resistance guide
Quote:
Ha.|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
It says that I like a challenge and either fitting Stamina into a build or designing a character without adds to the challenge. It also adds to the uniqueness of each individual build. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, but I think you could accomplish essentially the same thing by giving an inherent power that slightly boosts recovery. Then you can get to the level of endurance/recovery you need by:
It seems we also have people who want an easy button. I'm not one of them. |
I highlighted that last sentence of your post because it demonstrates how utterly useless any point you were trying to make with this thread.
You don't want an easy button and you want to add an element of challenge to your gaming experience? Easy answer is to gimp your character by not taking key powers from either the primary or secondary power sets not to mention turning Sprint on and never turning it off to further gimp(or challenge) your gaming experience.
Game might be tougher if you deliberately refused to carry any inspirations.
Now please excuse me while I go do the
R O T F L M F A O
Quote:
And I don't like spending half my time waiting for my clickies to recharge.|
Originally Posted by Pitho
I did not like spending half my time "autoattacking".
|
Both problems are alleviated on higher-level characters in their respective games. CO's system offers multiple avenues to shift energy management emphasis away from the Energy Builder at very low levels, just like some CoH powersets mature complete attack chains earlier than others. Not that the average player would figure that out from the documentation, of course, but that's Cryptic for ya.
Now, if you'd complained about Control powers doing next to nothing to NPCs, I'd be right with you. CoH definitely does that a lot better.
Quote:
Removing Fitness and its power selection already seems iffy on good design to me (all of my characters are going to be able to do more than they can now, and sooner if they're still leveling). Removing the need to even have Stamina or slot for it seems even more iffy, as you do want to slot it to get the most benefit from it (some builds can avoid this, but most can't).|
Originally Posted by SquidheadJax
/\
This is the whole point. Not relative level of difficulty, not people wanting an easy button, but that taking Stamina provides such a global buff to character performance and reduction in downtime that to otherwise match it requires tightly-designed builds and/or expensive IO set synergies. That's not good design. Personally, I would eliminate Stamina altogether, play with the base recovery rate, and eliminate the cooldown on Rest. But taking Stamina out of the power choice structure where it currently resides as the 800-lb gorilla in the room and making it inherent is better, at least. |
As it is, slotting, endurance, and health are big curbs to performance, and removing those makes a game that isn't too hard even easier, and probably is not for the best. Making Fitness an inherent gets around one of the lingering bad design issues in the game, so we hardly need to go further.
I call it bad design, but needing to recover is fairly common. Not sure how it is now, but my Mage in WoW made frequent use of the food and water he could craft, as did his friends that used magic and couldn't make their own. CoX is and was much faster paced than this.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I imagine that the Devs are happy with where the performance of the Fitness Pool puts characters at and they did not want to change that balance point too much. But since the majority of players felt it was a necessary power, they decided to make the Fitness pool inherent so people would pick other pool powers. This does increase our performance a bit and to mitigate that they did not give us more slots, so we would have to spread out slots out, reducing our power levels a bit.
By accepting what is and making the best use of every situation, life can be fulfilled without a constant demand for more.
--Wen Tzu
Quote:
The big difference here is that your food and water didn't have a cooldown. If Rest had been similarly blessed when the game came out, and Stamina had not existed, the devs would have a much more tractable balance problem on their hands.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I call it bad design, but needing to recover is fairly common. Not sure how it is now, but my Mage in WoW made frequent use of the food and water he could craft, as did his friends that used magic and couldn't make their own. CoX is and was much faster paced than this.
|
As it stands, Rest is largely irrelevant to most players once they get Stamina, and the player base has become sufficiently accustomed to the performance level of Stamina that removing it would likely be suicide for the game. Since the devs wanted to remove Stamina from its position as a nearly mandatory power pick, they did it in the way that would provoke the least outrage while limiting the power creep problem. There's still some power creep associated with getting 3 extra power picks, but at least there's no more slots (beyond the default slots we assume we're getting in the inherent Fitness powers), and slots are tighter on most of my characters than powers.
The only character I've ever felt more constrained by limited power choices than by limited slots with was my SS/Elec Brute, and that was mostly fixed when Conserve Power became Energize and freed me from any urge to take the Medicine pool.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Now that that character doesn't sun out of blue. Are you taking him up against the max difficulty in missions?
If you do decide to take him (or her/or it) up against the max difficulty in missions, are you going to complain that you run out of blue every fight and want more +recovery to compensate?
You see, I have a base line for the effectiveness of any one of my characters. That baseline stands right around +0/x1 with bosses. Any of my characters can deal with that and, depending on the foe, still have Endurance afterward. Most can exceed that baseline. If I ramp up the difficulty and run out of Endurance after one fight, then I don't really have any right to complain that my +recovery is too low.
For those who use the "I don't feel super if I can't wade through an entire mission without resting" complain. I will tell you this. To Superman, The Hamidon would con as gray as a level 1 Hellion does to your level 50. Plus, Superman has had to "rest" on more than one occasion.
However, the arguments are really moot, since the Devs have decided to make the Fitness pool inherent. Much to my disappointment.
I have felt that Stamina never should have been in this game in the first place.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"