Am I the Only One Who Has Mixed Feelings About Inherent Stamina?
By
Adept,
Posted on: 2010-09-11 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
^This.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
and a pony!
|
In addition to changing the fitness pool to inherent, there should be a new travel power with ponies.
See.... I am overjoyed that Stamina is going inherent, underwhelmed that Health is too and just plain annoyed that Swift AND Hurdle come with the package too.
I don't want all of my characters to be over-fast kangaroos. 
Quote:
Ditto, I think with just minimal amount of effort I'll be able to make a noticeably better character after this goes live.
|
Originally Posted by Endlessly
On my few characters without stamina, it will be a welcome buff. On the characters with, even if I were to take three new powers and NEVER USE THEM THE ENTIRE GAME, I'm still no worse off than I was before. I am completely fine with this change.
|
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
Quote:
Below level 25, coming up with three of the same inspirations to convert is problematic. When you start the game, you only HAVE three slots. For most of the early levels, you have 8. If you save up two of every inspiration in order to ensure the next drop is a third, you will need 16 slots. |
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
If you have to stop to rest after every fight, there's a problem other than lack of stamina - especially with the 3:1 insp conversion.
|
So in general, you have to choose a subset of the Inspirations to collect in order to be assured of getting three of them. And you can't use any of them, which pretty much defeats the purpose of having Inspirations. You will use the CaBs, of course, but get no use out of the others unless you want to make it even harder to get threes.
After every fight might be pushing it a little, but I certainly find myself having to Rest a lot in the early levels.
Quote:
Replying back to the OP, I would say that in my experience, Stamina has the largest effect of any of the Fitness powers. But that's mainly because Endurance recovery, itself, is very high. Health raises HP regeneration by a larger percentage, but because base regeneration is low, it's not noticable. |
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
I must say that when I found out about Stamina becoming inherent, rather than being happy about it I was somewhat dismayed. While on some builds it will be very nice for me, I have been working on a number of stamina-less characters and been having fun with it.
|
Likewise, Swift isn't really that big a boost in speed, it's only like 10%. No one is going to be darting around like under Speed Boost and blundering into foes. Hurdle is a lot more noticable, you suddenly move a lot faster when you jump, because it's like a 50% boost in jump speed. That could be switched with Sprint, though, so it would boost both jump and run speed by 50%, and then Swift and Hurdle would boost them by 10%.
Y'know, now that I think about it, I wonder if Health is going to keep its resistance to Sleep. I don't suppose it would do any harm, but it seems out of place. The effect was kind of put there because various Status Resistances were put in Pool Powers like Disorient in Aid Self. That would effectively giving that resistance to everyone.
Anyway, the thing is most of the powers are not really that significant until they have been 3 slotted with SOs. "Out of the box", Stamina and Hurdle do provide a noticable change, but not so much that I think "Staminaless builds" will be totally eliminated. Instead you will have "1 slot Stamina builds" and "2 slot Stamina builds" and "3 slot Stamina builds".
well - and 4 slot stamina builds, don't forget Performance shifter
4 slot stamina + conserve power + 4 slot physical perfection
and a cherry on top.
Quote:
Yeah, but you kill 3 minions and gain a level. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Below level 25, coming up with three of the same inspirations to convert is problematic. When you start the game, you only HAVE three slots.
|
Quote:
|
For most of the early levels, you have 8. If you save up two of every inspiration in order to ensure the next drop is a third, you will need 16 slots. So in general, you have to choose a subset of the Inspirations to collect in order to be assured of getting three of them. And you can't use any of them, which pretty much defeats the purpose of having Inspirations. You will use the CaBs, of course, but get no use out of the others unless you want to make it even harder to get threes. |
Same way it works at high levels while farming... taste the rainbow!
Quote:
| After every fight might be pushing it a little, but I certainly find myself having to Rest a lot in the early levels. |
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Quote:
Stamina at level 2 is not going to suddenly give low level characters infinite Endurance. Even if someone were to put 2 slots in it at 3, it would still just have TO's. It's SO's that make Stamina a strong power, same as with anything else. What it will do, however, is help.|
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
Where "a lot" = "at all", unlike L50, eh?
|
I routinely use my SG base's empowerment station on my lowbies. One of the buffs I like to get is the End Recovery one. If I remember right that buff is 0.17 end/sec and unslotted Stamina is 0.25 so the two aren't that much different. And guess what? Characters running the empowerment station buff still run dry if I don't pace myself.
Implying that Fitness at low levels will completely remove lowbies' need to ever rest is silly. Yes they will. Just not as much as they do now.
I'm kinda surprised so many people are commenting that they enjoy Stamina-less builds. To each their own. (...and I suppose if you're running with someone Speed Boosting you all the time or have some kind of uber-slot-sets or something... or just like working without Stamina - more power to ya).
Personally, I found most characters of mine were painful to play before Stamina and all of them felt better once I got it. Hell, I've even been known to take Stamina on my Regen & Willpower characters (though I don't slot it out till the 40s). /shrug
That being said, I got used to (IMHO) having to take Stamina a long time ago... but the extra 3 power choices could prove handy for some of my characters. Though, as has been mentioned, slotting could get tricky (unless you take other powers that don't require lots of slotting).
Quote:
When I heard the news I was horrified. Not because this won't be a good change, it's going to be a fun awesome change. Until one issue later...|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
It's definitely going to be a headache revising some of my builds, but I have some where the extra power slots are more than welcome.
|
_CASTLE_ : It's been discovered that since the opportunity cost of Inherent powers is less than pool powers, the power scale of the Fitness pool is being reduced 50%.
As a side note, Swift and Hurdle being inherent is the final nail in the coffin of my non-Super Speed "Speedster" characters.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Quote:
Only if the purpose of being a lowbie is to not actually have fun as you pay more endurance (non-scaling costs) for less damage (level scaled amount) with the very few attacks you actually have.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
So we get Stamina at lvl 2 or something? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a "low-bie"?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I have to fall back on the wise words of a friend of mine; when a thing becomes so commonplace that its absence is a form of aberrant behaviour, and where that aberrant behaviour is unhindered by being given the thing, the thing should be standard.
|
@The_Cheeseman: You win the forum hero award. Those posts were fantastic.
I thought the change was a great idea at first. After a more thorough review, I now have to say I think this change is bad, very bad. Yes, you get more choices, but sometimes too many choices is bad. I am affraid we will now see everyone with leadership and fighting pools and possibly other select pools that just could not be squeazed into the build before. That forced a more concentrated effort to really decide what you wanted a toon to focus on. If you have everyting, then the focus is lost to some degree.
I hate to mention other games in the forum (specially if it is not a direct relationship), but Champions had a very bad problem because of too many choices. Toons became so independant that people were reluctant to team up with pugs. And cetain combantions of powers were far more tougher than others by far. I know that will not happen to that degree here, but it was an unforeseen outcome. What will we do with the unforeseen outcome here?... Start nerfing to re-balance? Just something to think about.
Also, if the benefit is just for lowbies, how long to you stay below level 20 anyways? A day, couple days, or even hours?
Quote:
Good distinction. I like resource-management games where one has to balance production decisions, for example, but tactical micromanaging quickly becomes extremely tiresome. |
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
I can see your point here, but I disagree. First of all, because I have never found resource management on a tactical level to be very fun (this is opposed to strategic-level resource management, like in a game like Civilization or similar)
|
Here's one example of mind-numbing tactical resource management:
I played one space game where you could build huge fleets of complex starships loaded with various weapons and gadgets...but the actual combat involved telling each gun in each battery of each starship where to fire each round. Now assume that six of my 40-ship fleets are fighting, using, say, 8 guns each, in fights that last an indefinite number of rounds (until decision is reached) before the next "turn" occurs and more production decisions are made. That means manually assigning 1,920 targets each round for, say, 20 rounds before I get to be the strategist again.
My first attempt at said game lasted 3,000 turns (each of which could in theory contain an indefinite number of battle rounds). There was no second attempt, of course.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
No mixed feelings at all! I'm really looking forward to it. Any problems like respecing characters I see as a good problem to have.
Quote:
This already exists in this game.
|
Originally Posted by Streeja
And cetain combantions of powers were far more tougher than others by far.
|
Quote:
My honest, true feeling is that you are overreacting. I truly believe it isn't going to be as bad as you think. Time will tell which one of us is right.|
Originally Posted by Streeja
I thought the change was a great idea at first. After a more thorough review, I now have to say I think this change is bad, very bad. Yes, you get more choices, but sometimes too many choices is bad. I am affraid we will now see everyone with leadership and fighting pools and possibly other select pools that just could not be squeazed into the build before. That forced a more concentrated effort to really decide what you wanted a toon to focus on. If you have everyting, then the focus is lost to some degree.
I hate to mention other games in the forum (specially if it is not a direct relationship), but Champions had a very bad problem because of too many choices. Toons became so independant that people were reluctant to team up with pugs. And cetain combantions of powers were far more tougher than others by far. I know that will not happen to that degree here, but it was an unforeseen outcome. What will we do with the unforeseen outcome here?... Start nerfing to re-balance? Just something to think about. Also, if the benefit is just for lowbies, how long to you stay below level 20 anyways? A day, couple days, or even hours? |
And the benefit isn't just for lowbies. There are a couple powers I would love to have taken on my 50 Plant/Fire Dom (even if it meant just having the power with the base slot) that now I'll get to take.
As for people building characters that are so solo capable they don't need teams.......this is already going on right now. Also, I think you need to give the players of this game some credit. Many people play CoH for its social aspects. They will still continue to team up because that's how they enjoy the game.
Quote:
Then maybe they'll start looking at the pool powers as a whole and seeing which ones need refocused or repurposed. The fitness pool is easily the worst offender, as taking Stamina objectively is a massive boost for a single power. Upping energy recovery is essentially the same as slotting an end reduction enhancement on every power you have without spending the slot. I don't know if other pools have such issues, but if most people were squeezing them out of their builds before in favor of AT, epic pool, and other pool powers, then it would seem they're at least not as broken as Fitness.|
Originally Posted by Streeja
I thought the change was a great idea at first. After a more thorough review, I now have to say I think this change is bad, very bad. Yes, you get more choices, but sometimes too many choices is bad. I am affraid we will now see everyone with leadership and fighting pools and possibly other select pools that just could not be squeazed into the build before. That forced a more concentrated effort to really decide what you wanted a toon to focus on. If you have everyting, then the focus is lost to some degree.
I hate to mention other games in the forum (specially if it is not a direct relationship), but Champions had a very bad problem because of too many choices. Toons became so independant that people were reluctant to team up with pugs. And cetain combantions of powers were far more tougher than others by far. I know that will not happen to that degree here, but it was an unforeseen outcome. What will we do with the unforeseen outcome here?... Start nerfing to re-balance? Just something to think about. Also, if the benefit is just for lowbies, how long to you stay below level 20 anyways? A day, couple days, or even hours? |
As far as teaming, people who want to team will team and partake of team content. People who don't, won't. Playing in teams is always more effective and dynamic*, but the human factor can easily spoil the fun of teaming and turn people off from it. A solo-friendly system means that people who are turned off from teaming aren't necessarily turned off from subscribing.
Finally, ignoring the low level experience is a great way to strangle the flow of new subscribers. Focusing on starting levels in Praetoria with the Going Rogue release and shoving every new player into that richer experience first shows that Paragon is aware of this, in contrast to, for example, Cryptic's STO team and the absurd upside-down leveling curve and low level crawl there.
*Even in CO. It's just that difficulty in the open world is generally already too trivial to notice, and anyone who doesn't team isn't encountering team-scaling instances or set-group instances.
Awesome. I love when people start thinking a power or situation through on the larger scale.
I think some people might have missed my point that this change could have unforeseen consequences, that is ok.
No troll, no foul.
Just things to ponder.
Quote:
Considering, when I make a level 1 character, and (on a few occasions) do not go through the tutorial, I still don't have to use rest until I reach level 5 at the earliest. Normally, I don't start using rest until I get into the mid teens.|
Originally Posted by Aedon
I'm kinda surprised so many people are commenting that they enjoy Stamina-less builds. <snip>
That being said, I got used to (IMHO) having to take Stamina a long time ago... but the extra 3 power choices could prove handy for some of my characters. Though, as has been mentioned, slotting could get tricky (unless you take other powers that don't require lots of slotting). |
But then, I'm also one of those odd-ball freaks that isn't worried about how fast I defeat things either. I have an AR/Dev blaster w/o Stamina that maybe rests once every 2 or 3 missions. And she's level 25.
When I team with others, I don't hold them up because I'm out of Endurance. Because I rarely am. I use things called inspirations to refill if needed. I also don't run unneeded toggles.
But, don't listen to me. I'm one of those odd-ball freaks that isn't concerned with the speed of mission completion. Neither are the people I routinely team with. Funny that.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
while we are getting free fitness "because everyone uses it" can we get free Hasten as well. I am sure the same everyone that picks fitness also picks hasten.
also we'll need hasten that much more no so we can burn through all the extra endurance we'll have now.
Or is that too much to ask right now ... yeah may need to wait an issue or two.
Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.
Far, far fewer characters pick up Hasten than Stamina. Hasten is not a 'required power' by any stretch of the imagination.
And, QQ moar.
I have no problem with inherent fitness. It means I can fit recall friend into more builds just for the heck of it and at least where my regen scrapper is concerned, 2 "Oh Carp" powers for if things start to go south.
Quote:
^this. i can see a case being made to reduce health and stamina to levels closer to 50% of current with the switch, and potential influence from incarnate offerings later on.
|
Originally Posted by Great_Scott
When I heard the news I was horrified. Not because this won't be a good change, it's going to be a fun awesome change. Until one issue later...
_CASTLE_ : It's been discovered that since the opportunity cost of Inherent powers is less than pool powers, the power scale of the Fitness pool is being reduced 50%. |
Kittens give Morbo gas.
Quote:
I would be very unhappy if the Devs started balancing the entire game around the Incarnate system. I've played "end game" MMO's before where this was done and it absolutely sucks. In that type of scenario certain builds/classes don't actually work correctly until you are at the cap or very near the cap. Given that CoH has always been about the journey, not the destination, such shenanigans in this game would be guaranteed to chase me away almost instantly.|
Originally Posted by spice_weasel
^this. i can see a case being made to reduce health and stamina to levels closer to 50% of current with the switch, and potential influence from incarnate offerings later on.
|
But I suppose that isn't really relevant to this particular conversation. I just don't like the idea of an "end game" in CoH at all, but we'll see how it goes.
Tex, my opinion is the majority of the claims about the game being too easy come from people playing tricked out builds. The Devs have said repeatedly that they will not balance the game's content around IO's. So if every character you ever play was to have a totally min/maxed IO'd to the gills build the content would naturally seem easy.
And there I think is the problem. The hard core min/maxers for whatever reason simply don't understand the game cannot and will not be balanced around their style of play. To do so would introduce an exclusionary system similar to the "gear grinds" found in other MMO's. The very absence of that system is part of what has always defined CoH.