Echoing Zombie Man's points and voting Option 1.
Quote:
You originally mentioned textures, but I'm going to assume this is theoretically open to all kinds of updates on costume pieces. In that case, I think which option I favor depends on the change.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, folks. So I have two overarching philosophies when it comes to the Art Direction in COH: first, that we continue to improve the quality bar with every new initiative we undertake and second, that we not forget about the legacy art as this happens. But when it comes to legacy art, there are of course items in the Costume Creator that are starting to show their age. We could hypothetically remake these assets with crisper, more detailed textures and modern shaders and do our best to maintain the 'flavor' and 'feel' of the originals, with the goal of giving you the same stuff, only better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But then there's a choice on how to deploy them, and that's where this very informal poll comes in: How would you, the players, want to approach this issue? HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 1: Old assets would be removed from the Costume Creator menu and you'd have the newer, updated ones instead. Pro: This raises the overall quality bar of the game by eliminating the oldest, least-attractive pieces; players look cooler; everything looks more consistent and modern. Less menu clutter. Con: change is scary; perhaps some players will prefer the old pieces? HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 2: We leave the old version alone and put the new version immediately below it in the Costume Creator. Pro: Nothing is 'taken away.' Con: Outmoded art remains, clashes progressively more with newer, modern assets. Menus swell with 2 options for each basic piece, making it harder to navigate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you can see where I stand on this.  Personally, I'd like to see the game's art evolve, improve, and remain consistent, so I much prefer Option 1. But as always, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this. Do me a favor and please keep your posts short and to the point. Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
Changes for which I prefer Option 1:
1. Geometry fixes specifically to address odd clipping or alignment issues. If its genuinely crap, even if some players like that crap I think its justified to replace poor geometry with properly functioning geometry.
2. Higher resolution versions of lower resolution textures that contain comparable features. Self-explanatory.
3. Costume part changes which create supersets of other parts (i.e. in terms of having more texture or coloring options, but can otherwise replicate the original part virtually completely with the right settings). Also self-explanatory. And probably should be the explicit goal whenever its actually possible.
Changes for which I prefer Option 2:
1. All other geometrical changes. If it changes geometry at all, I think you have to allow players to keep the old geometry even if the newer geometry is "better."
2. Textures which add significant visual details that did not exist on the original texture at all. This is a judgment call, but a higher res version of a lower res texture is different to me than a higher res texture that adds significant detailing with that higher res texture that wasn't even implied in the lower res one, even if that was strictly due to resolution limits.
3. Any part which is being revised for the players but for which an identical part is being preserved for the NPCs. If players can see it in-game, its going to only cause complaints if its removed from players, even if the replacement is "better." If you're going to remove it, it has to be gone from everywhere.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I'm glad we are learning lessons here. Every time pieces have been taken away (no quotes, that's what happens) there is a player backlash. People find unique and interesting ways to take advantage of clipping and the eye's interpretation of the costume pieces. Very rarely is there a reason to take pieces away. We have come to this conclusion before.
I understand that you are having difficulty with the ever growing population of costume pieces and organizing them with the CC. If you had a collection of equal size of all new renders, then I don't think there would be any consideration of removing simpler pieces to make room more complex designs.
So to summarize I choose to keep everything, old and new alike.
PS. way to write a biased poll. hopefully you are actually considering what is being said and not what you want. If you are stuck on clearing out some old textures take them from the newbies and tell them they can buy a pack of old textures if they are really into making costumes, but everything in the old pack is represented already. That way nothing is lost but beginners they don't have to deal with the clutter.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
Option 1 seems to be an "ignore it and it will go away" approach to the problem of a cluttered costume creator. It won't go away, unless Paragon Studios is planning on slowing down creation of new issues and booster packs any time soon. Some options (chest decorations, for example) are already pretty darn cluttered.
At some point the costume creator is going to need some UI polishing to deal with the clutter. When that day comes, any options that were removed for the sake of avoiding clutter will have needlessly been sacrificed, upsetting some players along the way.
Very easy decision to me.
OPTION 1, pretty please!
The old pieces look disgraceful, it's time for a revamp!
[COLOR=darkorchid]Nebulhym's AE Arcs: Try them now![/COLOR]
# 12647: Of feathers and fur...[COLOR=yellow]Winner of [B]The American Legion[/B]'s January 2011 AE Author Contest![/COLOR]
# 292389: From Tartarus with love...
# 459592: Interdimensional Headache
Quote:
David:|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Possible grist for the mill:
--non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
I will continue to use the non-animated tails for a number of reasons, not the least of which is this:
There is a GAP between the base of the animated tail and the character's body.
Yes, a gap. A very visible gap. The placement of the tail's 'root' on the model is very poor relative to the character's model, body scaling, etc.
The MOST visible gap happens on my Imp characters. Body scales are all at 0 (the left most option) except for waist, and the gap between the animated tail and the character's body is horribly obvious when viewed from the side.
This is *not* the case with the static tails, which have the proper seamless placement.
Option 1 on two conditions.
First, all the pieces in a set is done together. Wouldn't want snazzy new tech pants with old fuzzy top/gloves/boots.
Second, they don't degrade badly between UM and no UM and lose "features". There's a post on the Tech board I think that describes that when you turn the graphic settings down on the new glowing mutant or maybe it's the new Pretoria pieces, so the glow vanishes, you lose the ability to set the secondary color entirely.
And let me interject, if you are going to make more pieces "shiny" think about also having a matte option. Ninja black pajamas or special ops/tactical outfits shouldn't always be shiny.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I cannot decide tbh.
The old plain versions are good because they're just that, plain.
I use the tanktop with a skirt to make a dress, if the tanktop now looks like a proper tanktop i might not be able to do it to the same effect. Same with other pieces.
On the other hand, with things like gladiator shoulders, there's just no point in keeping the old crappy look.
So my final vote will prob be:
Option 1 for easily replacable stuff, but Option 2 for things which mesh well with other pieces, like tank top.
Quote:
Ironic considering that your forum avatar features one of such pieces.
|
Originally Posted by Nebulhym
Very easy decision to me.
OPTION 1, pretty please! The old pieces look disgraceful, it's time for a revamp! |
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
Quote:
See how this comes down to preference?|
Originally Posted by Sapphic_Neko
On the other hand, with things like gladiator shoulders, there's just no point in keeping the old crappy look.
|
I have never used gladiator shoulder's since the new one was implemented. I much preferred the old metal style to the new leather-armor-looking one.
Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
Quote:
Well the problem with that is that I have several toons who use the "eden" top to simulate not wearing clothes up top (they are fauns/satyrs and thus have no need to wear such things) and I can get the eden top to match some of the browner skin tones pretty well, and it has no edges to "give it away." |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Honestly, I don't see that "Eden" top getting anything but maybe stitching around the border. I think it's conceptually part of the idea that it is just hanging in space with no way to support it. Strings would not be required.
|
Putting stitching around the border would destroy my ability to do that.
Just chiming in with my vote, reiterating what has already been said: Option 2.
- The costume menus really need to be overhauled anyway. There are options that should be available in certain menus that aren't. Some menus are hero options and then villain options, some are the reverse, some are alphabetical. I've been playing this game since live launch, I spend a LOT of time in the costume creator, and it still sometimes takes me a while to find what I'm looking for. Even if I know the exact name and the names of a few items nearby in the list - because the lists are in such dire need of cleaning up. You guys already spent some time updating the costume creator, letting us zoom in on the face for example.. I think it's high time the whole thing was reorganized. I think that should be a higher priority than updating textures, because (as with many other features in this game) I think a new person is likely to be overwhelmed. (And besides, some of the menus get crowded on the screen. Everything doesn't even fit well anymore. We have this fantastic new character design interface that lets us go back and forth between all the steps, and yet the actual costume interface keeps getting more and more broken.)
- As has already been mentioned, some of the older (fuzzier) pieces are great for other uses. I think taking options away is always a bad idea, because there are a lot more players (and costumes!) than there are people on the art team. I'm sure you're already aware that we come up with some creative and zany ways to use costume pieces, things that you guys never would have thought of in ten years. Taking options away, regardless of how infrequently you think they're being used, is going to leave a lot of people hurt.
So I vote making a cleaner, more organized costume options list priority number one, and then touching up legacy costume pieces and leaving the fuzzier stuff in its own sub-category.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
How would you, the players, want to approach this issue? HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 1: Old assets would be removed from the Costume Creator menu and you'd have the newer, updated ones instead. HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 2: We leave the old version alone and put the new version immediately below it in the Costume Creator. Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
Short answer: I vote for option 2. Absolutely. (As to the tails - granted, I don't use the old ones.) How about a simple checkbox on/off switch, "show legacy pieces"?
Slightly longer comment: When I created my first character, I spent hours in the costume designer, trying out different combinations and looking for a cool outfit. Unfortunately I settled on Malaise's trousers (of course I didn't know who Malaise was) for their nice three-coloured look. (That costume piece being available for players was a bug at that time, but as a new player I had no way of knowing this.)
I know all to well the sad feeling I get every time we get new costume options without me being able to update my first character, for he would lose the trousers. It's unlikely that I will ever get access to them again (being a signature character's item and all), but I'm sure many older costume pieces will cause similar problems for existing characters of other players. So please... don't remove anything.
10
My vote is for option 1...so long as certain textures could still flow into one another to mix and match. For example how the tights option can somewhat flow into the baggy pants texture to make it look like 1 combined article of clothing.
Also an interesting idea in terms of removing clutter with how people want both shiny and non-shiny versions of pieces would be to just add a bubble next to the listed item section that would just let you decide if you want the piece shiny or not.
So instead of
Legs
-Tights
-Shiny Tights
It would look more like
Legs (x)Legacy? <So only legacy options would show up in the drop-down list>
-Tights (x)Shiny
...This can also maybe be done for making Legacy options as well.
But of course this is a UI change and will need a little more work but might help out more in the long run. As for the graphic just use the same bubble we use to "Copy colors across costume/powerset" or even some bubbles we get in the mission architect.
Just a thought.
Option one.
Rich the One Guy
Da Falcon Scrapper lvl 50
Shadow Hunter Q Blaster lvl 50
http://psfcoh.com/
Step Up or Step Aside
Quote:
Hopefully this will be restrained when it comes to female character models.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
But it'd be a lot more realistic and convincing.
|
You art guys have been overdoing the breastices just a liiiiiitle too much lately.
Not every superheroine is Power Girl. Witch parts are a good example - if you want
to use them, you're required to take a very large set of implants as part of the
package deal. That's not fun, and I'd rather not see that creep in to every
updated costume part, as a dark valley of cleavage is not always more "realistic".
I vote for option 2.
As much as I generally prefer newer, higher detailed pieces, many of my existing costumes are meticulously crafter/colored to work together as they are (often in very unusual ways). When pieces are updated, these pieces no longer match up to the other parts that compose the entirety of the costume.
While I realize that I can choose to never alter that costume again and keep it as is, that's not really a good solution as it locks me out of newer pieces down the road.
To keep menus less cluttered, rather than putting the new parts below the legacy parts in the main menu, the part should have a sub-menu (e.g. Warrior & Tai boots, amongst many others), with the legacy part as an option, and the updated part as the default.
Option one.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
Quote:
This bears repeating. "Painted on" patterns over skin should not be "fixed" to be anything but higher-res patterns over skin. If "more detailed" versions of them are added, then they need to be given the "Plus treatment," in the same way as Angelic vs. Angelic Plus, Excess vs. Excess Plus, Hearts vs. Hearts plus, etc.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Please do not replace things that look "painted on" with things that do not look "painted on". This is a change in basic function of a costume piece for anyone who has intentionally gone for the "painted on" look, which is actually fairly staple of real comic graphics.
|
I want to retain the look of perfect body-tight spandex, even if it has to resemble bodypaint to achieve it. Better resolution, yes. Pattern to texture, NOOO!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Option 1.
Quote:
I tend to use the dropdown list - so the mask pattern being available by "back arrow' I'd completely forgotten about. Still, it's not intuitive looking at the list - if I pick "Alpha" for instance, I'd still expect Alpha (mask) to be the automatic selection, or at least first after None. |
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Dunno if you've noticed, but the list wraps around - so if you're at the first item, pressing the left arrow takes you to the last one. That's what I always use to get to the Veteran emblems and physical chestpieces, and the mask pattern.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by StormSurvivor
(Giant image! Thanks for the picture, by the way. Although I'm not sure who I'm thanking.)
|
I say option one all the way. I can see where some people say 'this piece being updated ruins my topless X' but all in all that's not what they want you to be able to do. I think unless "shinyness" is added or glows then the piece doesn't need a legacy option anymore. I'd like to see a lot of the hats, jackets, & gloves/boots get updated. Like the "Conical" just give us the one the Tsoo have please, it's SO much better htna the cone on your head.
I vote for option 1
Option Two. Here is why.
I use a lot of the 'painted on' textures since they're my only options for tights, in the classic superhero sense. I have a feeling that a lot of these options would no longer go together, or match in style, once they're updated.
That and I had some costumes ruined by the updates to all of the metallic textures that came with Ultra Mode. We were told at the time that the old textures could be put back in as options, and I sure appreciate that you're going to do that, and know it takes time. But we haven't seen it, and that's all I can base my choice on. So I'd just rather that no more options got taken away from me.
Conclusions
Option 1.
Yeah, as much as I made an argument for Option 2, there is a reason why most of the old low-rez pieces must go away: Because others have to look at them.
Take, e.g., the competitor's creator which has taken an art style of human anatomy which I find sickening with it's shrunken cranial tops and jaws, over-pronounced brows, and slouching stance. I can use their sliders to correct all that on my toon. But the moment I go into the game, I'm sickened by seeing the uncorrected style on every other toon and critter around me.
If CoH is going to advance and be considered a modern game and not some six year old relic, it has to eject the old low-rez pieces.
But to that end, there are some rules of advancement that I recommend be followed to ameliorate the pain of change:
1. Start with complete sets. For example, the Steampunk pieces are horrendously low-rez. They should be updated and presented as a complete set... it will feel as if we have indeed received a brand new set.
2. Complete uncompleted sets: Steampunk is missing options, like Steampunk boots. Finish the set. Updating the look while leaving the gaps in the set will feel like salt in the wounds of all those who've been clamoring for the set to be completed for years.
3. Don't change the design. As mentioned above, the snowflake design got upgraded, and at the same time, redesigned. Don't do that! If the artist really, really wants to change the design, then add, don't change. Up-rez the old design and *add in* the new design.
4. Matching skins. See what I posted above. If you're going to up-rez the Steampunk set, then it would be nice to see a rusted skin, a shiny metal skin, and a UM reflective metal skin: Costume creator 2.0! Do something like that and no player crying over losing the old low-rez version will be heard over the ewwing and ahhing of the crowds over the new options.
5. Fix missing and broken pieces. I don't know how it can be justified for the Dev team to spend time up-rezzing pieces and not fixing what's been broken for a long time - a very long time. Really, I hate to be rough with you, David, but you've been pointed to a really broken part of the costume system and under your watch it hasn't been fixed yet. I regard that as a failure on your part and the other Devs involved. When are you going to fix the cape problem outlined here?
6. Join the Patch Notes process. It seems that the costume art department is immune to the patch notes process. When the Gladiator Shoulder piece was up-rezzed, there were no Patch Notes. In fact, except for when new costume *sets* are added, we're never informed of changes in the costume creator. Pieces go purposefully missing? No notes. Pieces not part of a set get added? No notes. Pieces that were broken get fixed? No notes. It makes me wonder if the costume department is in the same country as the rest of the Studio, let alone the same building. Getting back to the OP... it will reduce a lot of the anxiety and nerdrage of up-rezzing legacy pieces if you actually let us know which pieces have been up-rezzed when it happens rather than having to hunt through all the menus.