Annoying foe runaway AI in HD video
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-08-25 18:01 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
Seriously though its gotten way out of hand now on the running away thing. Its forcing me to use vet attacks on the runners every single spawn. This **** is getting really old now and needs to be addressed. On teams I make it a requirement to have a troller or dom that has some kind of slow or immobilize to keep the critters from running off. Its not like the running away thing serves any purpose that I could see. In other mmos the runners usually will aggro another spawn to you or something but this has never been implimented in CoX so why put this thru this run away crap.
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I loved that video! I remember getting runners in AP and the Hollows too.
omg i lol'ed at that vid, it must be late or something >.> ... 
. I love that 'where is he going!' I like how at least he figured out enhancements and as he said, made the game feel more like a first person shooter. thats good stuff right there 
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lmao i love that video, i had to subscribe xD 'Like he went to get a soda or something!?'
It really does need fixing though, it's worse when they not only run away but they run away into another mob, so you either chase them and get flattened or leave them and wait half hour for them to come back. Also if your an MM pets can be rather sluggish to respond to the 'COME BACK HERE NOW!!!' command so if they go off chasing the runaway into another mob your basically screwed. team wipe anyone? 
The above is only my opinion, please don't hate me for it
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I ran a katie Hannon TF last night with the SG mates, you wanna talk about running. Mary in the first mission was horrible, if we didn't immob her, she was all over the place. We literally watched her run for about 5 minutes before she came back to the group.
Running has gotta pretty bad with GR. I'm not sure whats changed, but something has and it needs to be fixed.
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Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
Should count as a defeat then, since he's essentially running away, and giving up with no hope.
Jer
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Then if you run away and escape from a purple, does that mean you get debt and go to the hospital? |
Originally Posted by SeedyXX
Should count as a defeat then, since he's essentially running away, and giving up with no hope.
Jer |
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Castle, could you have someone take a look at what triggers the "grief" flag? Because it seems to be tripping far more often and for far less reason than it used to. Example: I hit a random white conning minion in a mission spawn with the tier one and tier 2 Radiation Blast attacks, not enhanced for any debuff effects, and the mob promptly takes off for twenty minutes, running across the map and sometimes even exiting through the mission door. This happens whether I'm on a blaster, corruptor, or defender, and it happens around level twenty as much as it does around level 6.
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Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
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Thanks, Castle. Most interesting, and very useful.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
Intellectual curiosity striking me, now: One thing that I find mildly immersion-breaking is that a runner doesn't create aggro in other spawns it passes. Now, I'm sure there are reasons that I've not thought of for this, not least something along the lines of "We don't want the players getting swamped by unbeatable odds when a runner aggros the whole map", but is it theoretically or technically feasible for the following scenario to be built into the game:
Spawn 1 - players attack, one or more mobs in spawn have Grief flag set to on, Griefed mobs run.
Spawn X - Griefed mob enters perception range of Spawn. Spawn goes to combat stance and receives a small, short duration perception buff. If no players detected, spawn drops back to passive, otherwise spawn aggros.
And, general question to the people out there who think about these things: What are the implications of this idea for gameplay?
Off the top of my head, I've obviously already thought of the team getting swamped by this sort of "called in help", and I can foresee interesting possibilities regarding "trains" of spawns, but there's bound to be things I've not considered.
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I think the morale aspect may not be WAI. Just yesterday I was fighting three +3 minions in Neutropolis and whiffing like mad with degrading enhancements when two of them took off.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
Now, the morale AI could be broke or they may have been shaken by how crazy my Defender would have to have been to be attacking them.
Oh, and *insert snark about enemies not running away from Tankers because they're not a real threat*.
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I have recently reactivated my account after, oh maybe a year of time off. The running away is 100% the thing that stands out the most to me. I had forgotten how bad it was, or if this is hightened.
One thing I have noticed specifically are the Mook hitmen. They seem to be hands down the worst mob I come across that will run for really no reason. Its pretty much a guarantee they the hitman will run halfway across the map, even if you just shoot them once and try to corner pull or something. Extremely frustrating.
I haven't noticed the running away being any worse than it always has. It makes sense why they would run and I don't think anything needs to be changed.
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All snark aside, what, exactly, do you think this adds to the game? Is it there as a time sink or to try to add some sort of realism? If it's the latter, then why not have some sort of consequence for not stopping a runner (at least occasionally)? As it stands, there is absolutely no downside to not pursuing a runner (unless it bugs out and doesn't leash back to about it's starting point/jumps into rafters, etc. and you're on a kill all). A runner doesn't provide a challenge: ignore it and it'll eventually come back, most likely non-aggroed. A runner doesn't doesn't pose a threat: it won't aggro nearby groups and train them back. The only way a runner might prove hazardous is if a player or a pet chases it into another pack, and neither of those options is a given (honestly, both are pretty easily avoidable).
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Originally Posted by Castle
...You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
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Dear Ghod, thank you, I've been waiting this information from an official source for 5 years now. All along I've been telling people that soft-capped +def teams cause more run-aways, nice to be proven right.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
That being said, there isn't a morale check on receiving a debuff? I'd swear that enemies run away almost automatically around the time they get their fourth or fifth debuff stacked on them.
Part of it also seems to be 'do I have an attack I can use now? No? Morale-hit'.
Hellion Buckshots are awful for this--they fire once, and their recharge is so long by the time they get to attack again their morale has broken and they've started running away.
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Mook Hitmen have definitely been extremely terribad in this respect for a LOOOOONG time.
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Originally Posted by dante102
I have recently reactivated my account after, oh maybe a year of time off. The running away is 100% the thing that stands out the most to me. I had forgotten how bad it was, or if this is hightened.
One thing I have noticed specifically are the Mook hitmen. They seem to be hands down the worst mob I come across that will run for really no reason. Its pretty much a guarantee they the hitman will run halfway across the map, even if you just shoot them once and try to corner pull or something. Extremely frustrating. |
So are you gonna take a look at merits anytime soon? The reward for the Cap Au and Silver Mantis are far too low since the AV's run at the slightest "grief" flag.
also it wasnt Infernal, he fought like a champ. It was that GIANT Av with a ton of HP and endless hordes of friends and quick cast quick dying imps......
Set your grief flag to stupid, men!
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I think that would fall under "unable to attack their enemy effectively".
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
That being said, there isn't a morale check on receiving a debuff? I'd swear that enemies run away almost automatically around the time they get their fourth or fifth debuff stacked on them.
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The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.* I'd **** my pants with joy if they would just take the "RUN AWAY!!!!!!" out of Acid Mortar.
The only real problem I've noticed in the years I've played has been recent, but not necessarily because of any supposed change.
In the CoP Trial, where you have to take down the entire group to lower the real target's barrier (either on the obelisk or the trial boss), runners add an unnecessary difficulty in the group breaking up and running away. This is most noticeable when trying to synchronize the obelisk destruction, as 2 or 3 enemies will run high up into the hills in various directions and out of plain sight.
It's obviously not insurmountable, but I don't believe it's suppose to be there.
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I think the problem with runners (I mean the morale breaking ones, not the script based ones) isn't simply that they run, but that they run with no purpose. They do crazy things like running all over the entire map, or running a long way away, only to give up and wander back as if they don't know that there are 8 superhuman death engines waiting for them in the very spot that they ran from. If runners ran to the next spawn and joined it, or ran to an elevator or out the door and counted as a defeat for the purpose of completing the mission, I think players wouldn't hate them so much. Running to another spawn and causing them to attack the players is another option, but it would need to be rare. Having that happen every other spawn would get annoying very quickly.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
This another one of those problems that is exacerbated by CoH's mission design. There are other possibilities, but the mission designs generally wouldn't support them even if you had the tech ready. If you were in a high-tech villain lair, a runner might run to a control room and lower a blast door or activate base defenses that the players have to deal with. But when you're in a nonsensical 4 story maze skinned like an office with single floor elevators at opposite ends of each story, populated randomly with groups of 3-14 people 100 feet apart from each other, it makes it hard to create AI that does anything that isn't perceived as futile or ridiculous.
Edit: That sounds really harsh. Let it be known that I love this game, but I consider the basic design of missions to be one of its biggest flaws.
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I have to join in the question: Why? OK, they're a part of this game's core design. I can live with that. But why are they part of this game's core design? What are runners supposed to add to the gaming experience that couldn't be summed up as either "frustration" or "a waste of time?" Seriously, why does this exist?
It's like Adam Savage said when commenting on a cube of ballistics gel with a leg of pork and microchips inside it: "I'd like to see someone come across this thing with no context and try to piece it together for themselves why it exists." Why do runners exist? I know they exist, I know someone made them on purpose, I know they aren't going away, but why? Why do they exist? Pure curiosity speaking here.
As far as their AI goes, I dare say when an enemy runs in every single encounter, every single spawn, every single fight, that something in the "Running Man Code" is amiss. I could live with runners if they were a little more rare, but one per fight is just pushing it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Enemies with no melee attacks feel "helpless" a lot faster than more balanced foes, it seems. Hellion Buckshots and Mook Hitmen fall into this category (especially Mook Hitmen), and Praetorian Clockwork likewise have very low morale. Presumably, enemies also look at their "real numbers" when deciding if they're helpless, since debuffs do indeed break their morale faster. Bad guys hate being the Darkest Night anchor.
Also, you might want to look into Praetorian Clockwork defending destructible objects. I believe it was Neuron's "Steal the Brain" mission; I had an easy time blowing away some guarded objectives because the Clocks would take off running all over the place after one ranged attack. They just straight out refused to come fight me.
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The DEVs are always saying the want proof, for lack of a better word, of the foe AI runaway problem folks are always complaining about. Take a look at time mark 7:16 of this Going Rogue game reviewer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OIS...feature=search