Annoying foe runaway AI in HD video


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Castle, could you have someone take a look at what triggers the "grief" flag?
Agreed; I've had mobs head for the county line because I hit them with one attack with a debuff side effect.


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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm View Post
Mook Hitmen have definitely been extremely terribad in this respect for a LOOOOONG time.
In fairness in their case I think it's scripted / expected behaviour. They are snipers after all, and they do tend to reposition and take potshots at you, rather than doing the ridiculous "Run away in terror and then stroll leisurely back to their starting point".

I do agree that it does seem borked though the amount it happens, especially at the start of combat BEFORE ANYONE IS EVEN HURT.

I've had Purple conning Freak Tanks take off from the off, which makes no sense to me.


 

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I would also like to mention Ghost of Scrapyard, it's not an exaggeration to say that he spends more time running than fighting, seemingly regardless of who or what is attacking him.

Now maybe it's by design, I'm not sure...maybe he's trying to "stick it to the man". But whatever the reasoning might be, I can't in good conscience call it good design, particularly when he spawns on the docks and is precariously close to either the Arbiter Drones or the black market. It's kind of pot luck whether he'll run towards them and insta-kill himself or run away from them, and missing credit for merits/badges that way is more than a little frustrating.


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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.

The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that hostages that they are "guarding" aren't freed when their guardians run off. That aspect really makes no sense to me.


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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels.
The detail that goes into the AI programming continues to amaze me...


 

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Would it break a boss/EB/AV to make them so they don't run from you? And still give up their aggro at some point? Because it's kind of lame when you're fighting this big bad guy and he runs from you. No matter how much you're beating on him, it's still lame.

I dunno, if there were something more to the AI to make this running cool, I'd be all for it. As is, it just kind of happens: and sometimes when mobs are at full health and there isn't anything to justify it.


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Originally Posted by Starcloud View Post
Castle, could you have someone take a look at what triggers the "grief" flag? Because it seems to be tripping far more often and for far less reason than it used to. Example: I hit a random white conning minion in a mission spawn with the tier one and tier 2 Radiation Blast attacks, not enhanced for any debuff effects, and the mob promptly takes off for twenty minutes, running across the map and sometimes even exiting through the mission door. This happens whether I'm on a blaster, corruptor, or defender, and it happens around level twenty as much as it does around level 6.
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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Agreed; I've had mobs head for the county line because I hit them with one attack with a debuff side effect.
It seems to me that maybe the "grief" threshold is set lower or the triggering is faster than it used to be. Oddly enough i've recently noticed this much more at lower levels when player debuffs and defenses are weaker.


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Originally Posted by xen10k View Post
then if you run away and escape from a purple, does that mean you get debt and go to the hospital?
pwnd


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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.

The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
ahhh 'grief' flag ? Not sure if srs o.O ? For realz castle or is j00 f00lin us ?


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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay View Post
The detail that goes into the AI programming continues to amaze me...
If I could work on just one piece of existing tech, it would be the critter AI. I think they could be made a lot smarter, and a lot less frustrating, simultaneously. But my understanding of the critter AI is limited by what I can test for, which limits what sort of suggestions I can make.

My only real contribution there is that critters now make up their minds to shoot you in the face a lot more intelligently than in the past, ironically by making them a whole lot stupider.

I do think that the flee code should add a line of sight check. Every two seconds, the fleeing critter should attempt to target the player or players. If the fleeing critter cannot target any member of the player team with line of sight targeting, the critter should stop running. That's the limit of how far I think a fleeing critter should go: out of sight, so you have to nominally pursue. Not completely out of the zip code.


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Is there any hope of having this behavior tuned for AVs and/or (Giant) Monsters? I find it completely ludicrous the way some of these entities run. I mean nearly the entire fight is just them being chased down like dogs. The only ways to turn that around is to get someone who actually can taunt them (directly or via gauntlet effects) or, in the case of AVs, to immobilize them.

Two entities that are notorious for this behavior are Deathsurge and The Ghost of Scrapyard. This is exacerbated by the fact that there are copious terrain height variations in the places they spawn, which they bound up and down across with ludicrous grace. I've had face-offs with both entities where we were worried we wouldn't be able to overcome their HP regen, because their Donkey Kong antics were slashing our applied DPS - they can leap and bound at will, leaving players behind as they root to attack and then suffer travel power suppression.

I find Scrapyard's behavior especially immersion shattering, since he proclaims how he's going to "kick ***" and then proceeds to run like a headless chicken.


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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
What I do have a problem with is that hostages that they are "guarding" aren't freed when their guardians run off. That aspect really makes no sense to me.
How is somone moving to anew zipcode affectively gaurding a prisnor?


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Originally Posted by Castle View Post

I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
<sarcasm>
But castle, knockback and run away are scattering me mobs!!
</sarcasm>


 

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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
Fine by me, so long as either a) runners are counted as "defeated" for the purposes of mission objectives, or b) enemies that are part of a "defeat all", "defeat boss", "defend object", or "rescue hostage" objective don't run. When you need to defeat someone and they run off (or worse, run off and phase), it slows the game down for no purpose. When it's someone who's supposedly tougher than your entire team (say, Babbage or Romulus), it's immersion-breaking as well.

I've had team leaders call a ten-minute break because Romulus took off on a grand tour of the map, and I sometimes need to avoid using my Storm debuffs on Babbage to keep him from jumping all over the place. Neither is an experience I want to repeat.


 

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I did not notice this until I teamed with an Illusion controller who like to use confuse... Don't get me wrong, normally I like confuse, but now its like a single target version of the old fear powers. The confused mob may take one shot at his former ally before taking off for the hills. Very annoying.


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The running AI makes it really unsatisfying to play some breeds of scrapper/stalker (that don't have a taunt aura)

Back when SR was rolled out to brutes I made a fire/sr brute and scrapper.

They played similarly the first few levels, but around the SO level when the brute had evasion, and gauntlet scaled up, and the scrapper got buildup. one of them became rather unfun to play.

Which? The scrapper, no taunt, high burst damage from the SO+BU'd fire sword circle ... if I was lucky I'd get one runner or so, unlucky and half the group would split off.

The brute, while definitely a tough road to take - having gauntlet and a taunt aura on a pure offense/defense armor set, it was much more satisfying to have enemies stick around and fight.

Another random project I started at the time was a Dual Blade/Fire Armor scrapper, its combo based debuffs, DoTs and blazing aura (DoT only, taunt effect removed) sent entire groups running off so often that I just had to delete the character.


 

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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake View Post
I ran a katie Hannon TF last night with the SG mates, you wanna talk about running. Mary in the first mission was horrible, if we didn't immob her, she was all over the place. We literally watched her run for about 5 minutes before she came back to the group.
Cabal witches are explicitly one of the enemies with a high chance to run since I know they and Longbow Eagles have a power called Positioning that will randomly apply a mag 50 Fear to themselves for a short period of time. Pretty sure any sniper style enemy that's not officially of Sniper rank has this though it's much more noticeable with fliers.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I do think that the flee code should add a line of sight check. Every two seconds, the fleeing critter should attempt to target the player or players. If the fleeing critter cannot target any member of the player team with line of sight targeting, the critter should stop running. That's the limit of how far I think a fleeing critter should go: out of sight, so you have to nominally pursue. Not completely out of the zip code.
Would be a lot better and could possibly be used with tactical play with Stalkers (if Hide is up, the runner won't be able to spot you).


 

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Well that explains why my Level 50 tank scatters Hellion and Skull mobs in Perez when I one punch one of the minions.


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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I find Scrapyard's behavior especially immersion shattering, since he proclaims how he's going to "kick ***" and then proceeds to run like a headless chicken.
I wish I could remember the exact quote, but he also says something like "Don't be afraid to stand and fight." while running like a scared little girl. I'd guess he's exhorting his minions to do his fighting for him while he heads for greener pastures.

I understand that running serves a purpose and will not go away. I wouldn't want it to, though it can be a bit much at times as it is now. If it were up to me there are two changes I would make that would IMO make the mechanic much less annoying.

First I wouldn't allow mobs to run quite so far. It really can get to absurd extremes.

Second I'd tweak certain especially problematic mobs and powers that seem to trigger running more than they should. The two powersets that I have personally noticed as triggering running way over the top are Traps and Storm Summoning.

Many of the worst offending mobs have already been mentioned. Ghost of Scrapyard, Deathsurge, Bat'Zul. I'll add Agent X, an EB in Archmage Tarixus' story arc. I'll often as not drop the mission he's in unless I have some way of keeping him from running all over the place instead of fighting.


 

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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.

The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen.
But it serves absolutely no purpose what so ever. Its just annoying as hell. Please change it. So what if we kill them too fast. Its not like that 1 critter is going to over come the players at any point in time. Either give this running away thing a purpose, such as calling for help or just take it out all together. Right now its just pissing players off for the most part. Its sad that a reviewer of the game makes the running away one of the high points of the video. Do you really want CoX to be known as the game with run away mobs? This thing would be totally different if it wasnt nearly ever other spawn. Right now its just too out of hand. I reported this issue like 3 years ago and its exponentially gotten worse.


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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone View Post
Second I'd tweak certain especially problematic mobs and powers that seem to trigger running more than they should. The two powersets that I have personally noticed as triggering running way over the top are Traps and Storm Summoning.
It's kind of nightmarish when playing a Night Widow (either branch). You deal in slows, DoTs and now we know you compound that by having high defense.


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Originally Posted by dante102 View Post
I have recently reactivated my account after, oh maybe a year of time off. The running away is 100% the thing that stands out the most to me. I had forgotten how bad it was, or if this is hightened.

One thing I have noticed specifically are the Mook hitmen. They seem to be hands down the worst mob I come across that will run for really no reason. Its pretty much a guarantee they the hitman will run halfway across the map, even if you just shoot them once and try to corner pull or something. Extremely frustrating.
These guys are buggy in alot of other ways too. I remember a few issues back I used confuse on them and they stay perma confuse for some reason, well beyond what the duration is. For epic lulz I confused all of them in a map. So with all the running around they normally do plus the perma confuse on them it was like watching a first person shooter with all the sniping going on.


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The only major "running away" behavior that I've seen since GR involves ambushes. Time after time, my buddies an I trigger an ambush, but just before they reach us, all but one of the enemies turns and runs away, presumable to their spawn point.


 

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
Would it break a boss/EB/AV to make them so they don't run from you? And still give up their aggro at some point? Because it's kind of lame when you're fighting this big bad guy and he runs from you. No matter how much you're beating on him, it's still lame.

I dunno, if there were something more to the AI to make this running cool, I'd be all for it. As is, it just kind of happens: and sometimes when mobs are at full health and there isn't anything to justify it.
I would have to say above all critters the number who runs away the most is the AV Diabolique. For the most part she just isnt beatable unless you trap her in the geometry of the map or you use an immobilize on her just so she cant run away. If you gonna fix it, at least start there with this AV.


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Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
But it serves absolutely no purpose what so ever. Its just annoying as hell. Please change it. So what if we kill them too fast. Its not like that 1 critter is going to over come the players at any point in time. Either give this running away thing a purpose, such as calling for help or just take it out all together. Right now its just pissing players off for the most part. Its sad that a reviewer of the game makes the running away one of the high points of the video. Do you really want CoX to be known as the game with run away mobs? This thing would be totally different if it wasnt nearly ever other spawn. Right now its just too out of hand. I reported this issue like 3 years ago and its exponentially gotten worse.
Do you prefer them to line up and attack single file like kung-fu movies?

Honestly if you are trashing them, running away seems to be the logical choice from their POV. Sorry you have to work for your XP.


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