Annoying foe runaway AI in HD video
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Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-08-25 18:01 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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The current mob behavior as far as fleeing goes doesn't bother me. Your teamates with crowd control powers and ranged attacks can handle the runners. This is probably more of an issue for those who spend most of their time soloing. And let's be honestly here, you would run away if you were getting your butt kicked. Even the lowest level of mob AI should include them running away to avoid getting killed.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Do you prefer them to line up and attack single file like kung-fu movies?
 Honestly if you are trashing them, running away seems to be the logical choice from their POV. Sorry you have to work for your XP. |
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You mean like the way it is now? Sadly you pretty much need trollers to lock everything in place so they dont run away now. Gladly take a controller or dom over a defender any day. Sadly the extra benefit of the force multipliers that defenders bring gets watered down because critters run away adding more total time to complete a task than if no debuffs were used at all.
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Originally Posted by Raynebow
It is kind of obviously grief-able, and another way to complete a mission without landing a single hit (did I mention that I don't like ninjaing either?) would make my scrapper sadface quite distressingly.
Also, I can imagine a world where defenders are ordered not to defend because they're scaring all the mobs off, and that world sucks a great deal. |
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Yes, like.. say..
An unnamed random Malta Gunslinger at level 45. Even con at full health, who gets hit by one shot from my human form Peacebringer's Gleaming Bolt. He fires a shot of his god-powered cryo-freeze ammo and then... he's running like he's training for the Olympics.
While my character is standing there helpless, no shields, no way to fight back, no breakfrees in the inspiration window.
I'm sorry, Castle, you *really really really* need to have someone take another close look at this code and fine tune it. Mobs with Teleport or Flight powers are particularly bad; Tsoo Sorcerers and Ancestral Spirits, CoT Demons, Sky Raider 'Porters and Wing Raiders, Malta Gunslingers and Sappers.
I stopped doing ITF's because of all the EB and AV running, it became a job the play the game. I work 8 hours a day and get paid for it, I don't want to work when I come home and relax.
We didn't even shoot Romulus in the 3rd mission. We threw a toggle on him then turned to deal with Requiem and Romulus bolted for the scaffolding. He then dragged everything back to us during the fight. Then after a few minutes of running away comming back then running away, he got caught in terrain and we couldn't fiinish the mission. Havent done it since and wont ever again.
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/facepalm|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You mean like the way it is now? Sadly you pretty much need trollers to lock everything in place so they dont run away now. Gladly take a controller or dom over a defender any day. Sadly the extra benefit of the force multipliers that defenders bring gets watered down because critters run away adding more total time to complete a task than if no debuffs were used at all.
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Once again, ER is playing a differnt game from the rest of us.
It's one thing to complain validly, it's another to venture into the real m of gross exaggeration and hyperbole.
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I agree with this. The "run a little bit and shoot from range" behavior of Eagles and non-AV Witches makes them interesting. It's behavior that makes them seem more alive, and causes me to try to use tactics or specific powers to counter it.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
With those, they actually run in a somewhat smart way... they move back a distance and then use their ranged attacks on you. Not really that dumb, if you think about it. I think that behavior makes sense... it's just that players experience it on top of regular mobs running willy-nilly, which makes it seem part of the same annoying behavior.
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The "run all over the map like a nutcase, and then come back as if nothing happened" behavior is just terrible. Toggle-debuffed Scrapyard is ridiculous.
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Your Gunslinger example definitely sounds silly, but I don't think there is anything wrong with Tsoo Sorcerers. Teleporting all over the area (I've never seen them go too far) and healing/debuffing is what makes them interesting. They're usually still close enough to hit with ranged attacks after a few steps, and if not, you can get one of their buddies down to half health and they'll teleport right back in. It does add some difficulty, but I think it's way better than just cranking up Hp/Def/Res/Damage/debuffs. |
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Yes, like.. say..
An unnamed random Malta Gunslinger at level 45. Even con at full health, who gets hit by one shot from my human form Peacebringer's Gleaming Bolt. He fires a shot of his god-powered cryo-freeze ammo and then... he's running like he's training for the Olympics. While my character is standing there helpless, no shields, no way to fight back, no breakfrees in the inspiration window. I'm sorry, Castle, you *really really really* need to have someone take another close look at this code and fine tune it. Mobs with Teleport or Flight powers are particularly bad; Tsoo Sorcerers and Ancestral Spirits, CoT Demons, Sky Raider 'Porters and Wing Raiders, Malta Gunslingers and Sappers. |
I think the Tsoo are one of the best designed groups in the game, and I think Sorcerer AI is half of what makes them so great. I think the Yellow Ink Men could spam controls a little less often, and Ancestral Spirits should not get Knockout Blow, but the variety and behavior differences in the mobs make them great.
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Some of the critters that stand on the streets seem to be AI coded to run if their allies are shot at, before they themselves are even fired upon. Its most common when the group is engaged in some crime, like trying to steal a purse or break into a bus stop for some reason, but it also seems to happen even when its just two or three critters standing around sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay, then you've just told me something is wrong.
Atlas Park. Level 3 Hunting Hellions I come up on a pair of +2 Hellion minions in the group just outside the wall of that courtyard due west of the AE building. I hit one of them and both take off like a bat outta hell. One running directly into the AE drones. One hopping the wall and running into the courtyard just north of the wall (running through several other groups of enemies on the way). They don't attack me, and I've shot someone exactly once. And at level 3 there's no way in hell I'm softcapped. No teammate has died. Note: This doesn't ALWAYS happen. However, I can usually manage to get them to run away with only one attack. |
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I'm not following you, can you define grief-able?|
Originally Posted by Raynebow
It is kind of obviously grief-able, and another way to complete a mission without landing a single hit (did I mention that I don't like ninjaing either?) would make my scrapper sadface quite distressingly.
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I personally don't see having more options for defeating mobs as a bad thing. Defenders and controllers would still be required to use their primary powers in order to complete missions so they would still have to "hit" the mobs. They would just be doing it differently from the damage primary archetypes
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| Also, I can imagine a world where defenders are ordered not to defend because they're scaring all the mobs off, and that world sucks a great deal. |
>
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I have no issue with open world mobs running away. It's when hostage mobs run and the hostages, with no guards within hundreds of yards of them, just stay there patiently cowering.
I'd hope for some visual idea why this happens (handcuffs, chains, force fields, etc.) and the running guards have the key to get them loose.
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This does not address why a critter will run if you put a toggle debuff, like Darkest Night, on him. I had a red conning Greater Devoured, who had no damage taken, run off and bring an entire map of DE to me. As soon as I'd get below the aggro cap, more would come. It was insane. I have noticed this time and time again with toggle debuffs, have reported it time and time again, and still nothing. |
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
It also doesn't answer why critters are continuing to run from Masterminds, even before any damage is taken.
And it also doesn't answer why this mechanic was put in. I don't remember running like this back in the early days.
Also, I think this mechanic sucks and makes some aspects of the game very unfun.
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I like the robots in PRetoria....since they wander away from thier leash at exactly 1/4 life they go untargetable and run to thier spawn point......players didnt lead them thier....they started at where they were attacked....and decide at 1/4 hp that its time to leash.
good job devs
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So what about the really stupid runners like warwolves or Cabal witches? I've seen them run the minute a single debuff hits them. You can't immobilize them or slow them with slows either. And they tend to run great distances across half the map sometimes in the outdoor maps. Or some AVs like the clockwork king will do nothing but run. |
Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
The enemies should be more aggressive and less likely to run from every little thing that hits them.
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These have been discussed in the thread. Cabal are set up to retreat a ways and fire at you: they don't really fun away. This is different behavior than other mobs that run. Same thing for Diabolique. For Warwolves, they tend to run all over but they do throw things at you and dash back in at top speed, so I think that's the way it's supposed to be. It's frustrating, I suppose, but very characteristic of the mob. As I said before, I don't mind that kind of behavior from some mobs... it's when they're all running that you lose the uniqueness of these types.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
So what about the really stupid runners like warwolves or Cabal witches? I've seen them run the minute a single debuff hits them. You can't immobilize them or slow them with slows either. And they tend to run great distances across half the map sometimes in the outdoor maps. Or some AVs like the clockwork king will do nothing but run.
The enemies should be more aggressive and less likely to run from every little thing that hits them. |
Castle, I should add that there was an issue... maybe I11 or I12 (back when the massive thread in Player Questions started: "Mob AI: Run Away!" or something like that) when enemies running seemed to get really bad. It happened before that issue, obviously, but it started happening much more often: enough so that a lot of players started talking about it and the aforementioned thread was started.
Between that, common player posts, and this thread, I think you have a strong indicator that perhaps the AI for mobs running is not working well, and even if it is WAI, it would be a good idea to revisit it. Not to get rid of it, but to make it work better and be less frustrating for players.
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All true, but something in the last couple years changed because when the game launched the runaway problem wasnt nearly what it currently is. Now just approaching a group of 3 even con'd minions playing solo means atleast one of them is going to run.
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Originally Posted by Castle
Critters run away for one of two reasons: A power or script forces them to or their "grief" flag has been set to true.
The Grief flag gets set to true when the enemy's morale breaks. Morale can break because a team mate died too quickly, or because they cannot attack their enemy effectively. So, if a group of softcapped players AoE nuke half a spawn down, the rest are pretty likely to run away -- a bunch of their team just died AND their odds of being able to retaliate are at minimal levels. I'm not saying there isn't a problem; I am giving you, the players, more information regarding how it works internally. You should also know that runners are a part of the game and eliminating that aspect of the game isn't really likely to happen. |
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/signed
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Originally Posted by SeedyXX
Should count as a defeat then, since he's essentially running away, and giving up with no hope.
Jer |
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I think most people are okay with the principle that mobs flee; it's just all the unnecessary fleeing that drives us mad. Wimpy Hellions and Skulls? Sure, let them run. Higher level enemies should be more commited to their task however. A level 35 Paragon Protector for example should rather die than flee, he is not just a simple thug.
Having said all that, mobs that "stand in the fire" and happily die with their bretheren are mcuh easier to kill then mobs that scatter. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with mobs scattering so they aren't all susceptable to AoE damage, that is good AI at work. That doesn't mean they shouldn't flee for miles though, which is bad AI and simply ridiculous.
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I'm not seeing them run away to shoot at me from range or throw a rock. Sometimes they just keep going until they are half way across the map.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
These have been discussed in the thread. Cabal are set up to retreat a ways and fire at you: they don't really fun away. This is different behavior than other mobs that run. Same thing for Diabolique. For Warwolves, they tend to run all over but they do throw things at you and dash back in at top speed, so I think that's the way it's supposed to be. It's frustrating, I suppose, but very characteristic of the mob. As I said before, I don't mind that kind of behavior from some mobs... it's when they're all running that you lose the uniqueness of these types.
Castle, I should add that there was an issue... maybe I11 or I12 (back when the massive thread in Player Questions started: "Mob AI: Run Away!" or something like that) when enemies running seemed to get really bad. It happened before that issue, obviously, but it started happening much more often: enough so that a lot of players started talking about it and the aforementioned thread was started. Between that, common player posts, and this thread, I think you have a strong indicator that perhaps the AI for mobs running is not working well, and even if it is WAI, it would be a good idea to revisit it. Not to get rid of it, but to make it work better and be less frustrating for players. |
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Dont know about you but I play to maximize my time. Adding defenders to a team can no longer do this simply because if we chase runners we are wasting the time that defenders would have been shaving off the mission with the debuffs/buffs. So I would rather to take slightly longer to kill them if it meant trollers would be locking them down so they cant run, which of course if they ran would make it take significantly longer if they are running thru the whole level of that map. There is no gross exaggeration here. You need to do a few kill all missions with a group of debuffers/buffers. And if the critters arent all dead with the initial blast watch how long it takes you to kill the runners. Then turn around and do the same types of missions with trollers instead with the same secondaries as the defender primaries and watch how much faster its going to be since you dont have to chase runners. Hell you could do this with doms and it still would be faster now due to locking down the runners. I know this because I have done it and seen it with my own eyes. So there is a significant problem with runners.
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
/facepalm
Once again, ER is playing a differnt game from the rest of us. It's one thing to complain validly, it's another to venture into the real m of gross exaggeration and hyperbole. |
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Oh yeah. I've been seeing that too. Not as bad as this, but I've had some three-man ambushes turn into two-man ambushes because one guy decided to just stop running.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
This happens a ton on the ITF. I remember when all the ambushes used to come at you, but now 2/3rds of them run away before they even see you.
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As an aside, there's a separate bug (now fixed?) where flying enemies will get pathfinding issues while trying to ambush you, and sort of float back and forth in the hallway without making any progress. This isn't that bug. Members of the ambush team just plain stop coming, even if his friends have seen and aggroed onto you.
Also, Castle, if you want another example of completely irrational running, look up Splice's mission "Test the Device", where you're fighting broken Clockwork at an instance of the BAF. Every time I've done this mission, two live characters and one in beta, the last Clockwork in the first three minion spawn heads for the hills and never looks back. Try it with a stalker. The guy won't turn around even to shoot back at you.
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Gunslingers are unexpectedly cowardly sometimes, but Sky Raiders and Tsoo are fine. I agree that the Sorcerers blipping in and out makes those fights much more interesting, although the tohit debuff on their Hurricane is a bit much. Likewise with Sky Raiders, where it seems (by design) impossible for tankers to herd them up into nice neat balls, with guys porting and flying all over the place.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Your Gunslinger example definitely sounds silly, but I don't think there is anything wrong with Tsoo Sorcerers. Teleporting all over the area (I've never seen them go too far) and healing/debuffing is what makes them interesting. They're usually still close enough to hit with ranged attacks after a few steps, and if not, you can get one of their buddies down to half health and they'll teleport right back in. It does add some difficulty, but I think it's way better than just cranking up Hp/Def/Res/Damage/debuffs.
I think the Tsoo are one of the best designed groups in the game, and I think Sorcerer AI is half of what makes them so great. I think the Yellow Ink Men could spam controls a little less often, and Ancestral Spirits should not get Knockout Blow, but the variety and behavior differences in the mobs make them great. |
The difference there, of course, is that Sorcerers and Porters will actually come back. Blinking around is part of their combat script, versus running clear across the map for no real reason.
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Giving some players (in this case, ones with high level buffs) the ability to spoil the day of other players (in this case, by scaring away mobs in the open world).|
Originally Posted by McBoo
I'm not following you, can you define grief-able?
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Originally Posted by McBoo
I personally don't see having more options for defeating mobs as a bad thing. Defenders and controllers would still be required to use their primary powers in order to complete missions so they would still have to "hit" the mobs. They would just be doing it differently from the damage primary archetypes
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Originally Posted by McBoo
So no change there then. Most folks are told fairly regularly by other players what represents the best playstyle for their characters.
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Yeah, being told how to play your build sucks. I tend to leave teams which continue to do that.
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I think it would make the game far less fun for unwinding/relaxing.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
And, general question to the people out there who think about these things: What are the implications of this idea for gameplay?
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I've known mobs have some sort of flee flag since coh beta. I started with a ff/psi def and all the -rech effects on my psi attacks made it common for the mobs to get locked in broad power recharging which trips the flag.
I don't mind that there is a flee flag in the game, but it doesn't work well with the game at all. Setting aside all the long-standing bugs with it (mobs still commonly get into confused states when at or beyond the periphery of player 'visibility'), it just doesn't interact with the game well at all. What the fleeing mobs actually do runs counter to any arguable sense as to what either an intelligently-retreating fighter or a mindless scaredy-cat would be expected to do. And beyond the first few steps of flight, whereby the player must adjust to a change of target ranges (from melee to short range or short to beyond short range), there's no gameplay value to mobs fleeing. And even that range game value is undermined by the target autofollow command itself being bad at judging when to speed up or slow down (which forces players to fight their controls rather than fight in the game).
Yes, fleeing mobs also have an effect whereby the player must judge if chasing would lead to unnecessary aggro of side groups, but the fact that the side groups currently completely ignore a mob fleeing through them cancels out any such gameplay value in my opinion.
And realistically, recharge debuffs triggering fleeing is another reason on the list as to why recharge buffing/debuffing is not a good fit for the game in general.
I don't mind that there is a flee flag in the game, but it hurts gameplay significantly in its current form.
But it's not that big a deal, the game can struggle on with them and the players have proven they can make up deficits like specifically these.