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Here's what I don't understand. In WoW, Everquest, any other MMO, you don't have to engage in endgame content unless you want to. You can roll multiple alts and enjoy the game in an entirely different way. I'm not a WoW player, but they have 8-10 classes IIRC and they give you more than enough slots to experience them all.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
again though, its a question of philosophy. many, such as myself, see endgame raids as the same treadmill, but now with the added bonus of having long time commitments, a need to form up gorups with other players with your playtime and playstyle who may add additional responsibilities to your life (want to go out to dinner with your girlfriend on a raid night, you let your guild down!) and those raids, unless everything i have read is a lie, dont change each time you run them. So you are still treadmilling repetitive content, only now its hard, and only has a minute chance of dropping one part of what you will need. that is fun to some, particularly people who like traditional mmos, but for many or us, its the description of unanesthitised dental surgery. I guess the question is, should coh be competing with far larger and more popular games that already engage those costumers fully? or do they do their own thing and get the people not currently vested in larger games? if you only have the size and resources to do one..well, maybe trying to out gorilla the gorilla isnt the smartest move.
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So why does it harm you if these types of play experiences are in CoH? Considering that CoH already has group and raid content already, what is it to you if this content is extended?
As for resources, I've seen games with a fifth of CoH playerbase which still provides this content as well as a meaningful leveling experience.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I haven't opposed it, my problem with the op ,and, usually, you is the insistence that gr was bad because it didnt target you. im glad its coming next issue for those who want it, i wont be screaming and yelling in the beta and open forums about it over and over, that will be the difference. You dont like pre stamina, we get it, some of us can deal and can appreciate the other aspects of the game, particularly the better writing. we dont begrudge the endgame players, maybe return the courtesy? You are intentionally putting words in my and others mouth by saying it bothers us, that is nonsense, and not the point of the thread.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Here's what I don't understand. In WoW, Everquest, any other MMO, you don't have to engage in endgame content unless you want to. You can roll multiple alts and enjoy the game in an entirely different way. I'm not a WoW player, but they have 8-10 classes IIRC and they give you more than enough slots to experience them all.
So why does it harm you if these types of play experiences are in CoH? Considering that CoH already has group and raid content already, what is it to you if this content is extended? |
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coh has a meaningful leveling expereince, it also has a meaningful series of things to do at the end for merits, hamidon enhancers, vanguard merits and purple drops, all of these improve a player after they have finished leveling. what it lacks is a multi leveled tiering system based on a heavy loot system. thats it, be honest here.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
As for resources, I've seen games with a fifth of CoH playerbase which still provides this content as well as a meaningful leveling experience. |
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That's my opinion yes. It's informed by seeing many other expansions that provide content for much broader swathes of the game in question. Folks of your persuasion got their shinies NOW, I'm being made to wait. I've said on multiple occasions that I'm happy the altoholics got their dream expansion. I'm just stating why I believe it was a bad decision. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
I haven't opposed it, my problem with the op ,and, usually, you is the insistence that gr was bad because it didnt target you. im glad its coming next issue for those who want it, i wont be screaming and yelling in the beta and open forums about it over and over, that will be the difference. You dont like pre stamina, we get it, some of us can deal and can appreciate the other aspects of the game, particularly the better writing. we dont begrudge the endgame players, maybe return the courtesy? You are intentionally putting words in my and others mouth by saying it bothers us, that is nonsense, and not the point of the thread.
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So I don't see how I'm begrudging you or anyone else your fun?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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heterophobe!!
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Originally Posted by evilgeko
folks of your persuasion
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Your heterophobiaphobia is a sickening intolerance of people intolerant of you.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
heterophobe!!
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That's all true, but you suggested that the devs need to balance resources away from an endgame.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
coh has a meaningful leveling expereince, it also has a meaningful series of things to do at the end for merits, hamidon enhancers, vanguard merits and purple drops, all of these improve a player after they have finished leveling. what it lacks is a multi leveled tiering system based on a heavy loot system. thats it, be honest here.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
if you only have the size and resources to do one..well, maybe trying to out gorilla the gorilla isnt the smartest move.
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Hell, if they had even given the CoP trial a reasonable reward, I might not be so annoyed.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I am an equal opportunity '-phobe'. I fear everything.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
heterophobe!!
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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All the other threads complaining about this same thing? |
Originally Posted by LiquidX
Really now? And what statistics or hard evidence have you used to actually determine this?
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
It isn't possible to please everyone, so the idea that some people aren't pleased is the furthest thing from a surprise.
I have been around since the begining. I have taken breaks due to failures in the game. I have come back and been pleasently surprised with changes. With regard to this Expansion, I feel it is vastly better than MA or COV. Why?
City of Villains - So many things to cause hassle to players were intentionally put in the game.
Mission Architect - the intentional allowing of the PL problem to persist and the poor implementation.
Going Rogue - They made it so people who goto Preatoria have to do the content. They made it so the mechanics to switch sides can not be exploited. The graphics upgrades and the new content.
All in all I think this game, despite its bad points in times, is 100 times better than it started. The devs have done a good job of learning and pushing forward.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Tip missions are all right. But they lack substance.
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| GR is just a glorified issue. |
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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not at all. the inventions were released in an issue that added no new beginning level content, rwz and vanguard merits came during an issue that only added content for level 35 characters, itf was added during i13 which only added a small amount of mission content and only for a specific leveling band. You have already discussed your dislike of ANY level 20 content regardless of its quality, because it was pre stamina, so your initial attitude was focusing all resources on endgame. I am saying reasonably if there was a focus, and neither you nor i know enough about game design to make a specific call as to how well the resources were allocated, then trying to become a endgame heavy raiding game in the midst of several very popular mmo's is to join the ranks of games that have attempted and crashed upon the rocks with a user base that, had they really been obsessive endgame raiders, have done without hardcore raiding for 6 years now, and would be a bit like unarmed martial arts fans still playing the gorilla, they exist, but their numbers reasonably would not be great.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's all true, but you suggested that the devs need to balance resources away from an endgame.
That's a false dilemma, as you aptly demonstrated in the first quote. CoH already does have an endgame. It also already had a new player experience. They decided to add more to the new player experience and nothing to the endgame. That's the decision I quarrel with. I believe that it would have been better to create content for all players. Then I19 could have expanded all playstyles. Hell, if they had even given the CoP trial a reasonable reward, I might not be so annoyed. |
and finally you remind everyone of your true colors, cop IS content for endgame characters, but it doesnt give phat enough loot, so its forgotten. it Is for all playstyles, particularly ones that are getting hams/vams right now, it just isnt the specific kind that you want, YET.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I am an equal opportunity '-phobe'. I fear everything.
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QR: I completely agree that lowbie content needed to be addressed. I have had to deal with Kalinda waaaaaay too many times, and I simply ignore official lowbie blueside content before level 20. I just do. I hate it. Kalinda is old news, but not anywhere near the level of annoyance generated by lowbie hero contacts.
So we got an expansion for lowbies. Cool. NOW..... *now* next we need to see some stuff for level 50s to do. I have many level 50s and I enjoy playing them, but the ITF ALSO gets old after a while. And that is the main way I see level 50s generating drops and income, unless its a farm and it'd be nice to have something esle to do besides farm Battle Maiden.
This new content for 50s should in no way resemble the Reischmann TF/SF. I consider this one of the worst TFs in the game, discounting crap like DR Q which is unbearable if only for the length of time involved. Not longer than 5 missions, no AVs at the end with a regen rate of 1,000,000 HP/second. Thanks for your time 
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More info coming in September |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
NOW..... *now* next we need to see some stuff for level 50s to do.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm a loot 'ho and proud of it! As I said during beta, CoP is great to do, but to do it again and again it has to be rewarded properly.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
and finally you remind everyone of your true colors, cop IS content for endgame characters, but it doesnt give phat enough loot, so its forgotten. it Is for all playstyles, particularly ones that are getting hams/vams right now, it just isnt the specific kind that you want, YET.
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| boo! |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
eh, is philosophies, I should reiterate im not saying you are wrong, its just we play for different reasons, and you are getting your stuff, next issue and beyond, its just not right now, like i said, we dont know how many resources are needed to generate content, i suspect that even with the swelled ranks, they still need to be organized to do one thing or another. but for me, the cop is about beating things up, i enjoy that outside of loot, queue up some blind guardian/alestorm, get buffed by teammates, get a massive group of baddies around you and start kicking and punching, loot is a happy side thing. its all philosophy, i hope you enjoy when you get your thing...and besides, i dont get "my thing" till we get backpacks, more martial arts animations, Asian themed costume bits,monster costume pieces, a Japanese town zone and a dinosaur zone, That is my thing, i didnt get it, but the new stuff is nice too. maybe someday, but i can deal with the new stuff, and i LOVE KM.
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I want all that too.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
i dont get "my thing" till we get backpacks, more martial arts animations, Asian themed costume bits,monster costume pieces, a Japanese town zone and a dinosaur zone, That is my thing, i didnt get it, but the new stuff is nice too. maybe someday, but i can deal with the new stuff, and i LOVE KM.
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And the new stuff is nice. Praetoria is wonderful. KM is wonderful, elec it OK. Side-switching does what I need it to do. I can both like parts of the expansion and think it sucks overall for not having the EvilGeko's shinies. I am a complex lizard.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
For the tl;dr crowd: 1-20 content in Praetoria is necessary on release of GR so new players can have something to do in the new zones. Endgame content is much less important *right now*, because the focus is on getting * and keeping* new players *right now*.
Of course the devs concentrated on 1-20 content rather than endgame for this expansissue. Think about it...they had a new expansion and issue coming out, and they could either include the 1-20 Praetorian content, or the Incarnate system for endgame. They are hoping that GR brings in new players. By definition, new players do not have level 50 characters. Thus, endgame content would be of no use to new players, until they reached 50. Also, while we vets can probably run through the 1-20 Praetorian content in a short time, newbies most likely won't. We all know how to slot enhancements, how to use Wentworth's, where the train stations are and how to use them, how and when to get a Raptor Pack, etc., etc. Newbies don't know this stuff, and that will slow their progress through the early levels. I know it did for me, and we didn't even have most of the stuff I mentioned when I was a newbie. So 1-20 content is likely to last any new players more than long enough for the devs to finish the Incarnate system and implement it well before any new players reach the level cap.
Also, it would have been pretty damn stupid to make a whole new SIDE to the game, roll it out and say, "Look at the new Praetorian zones! Aren't they beautiful? Of course you can't actually DO anything in them, because we were working on endgame content rather than content for the whole new part of the game we just rolled out."
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Originally Posted by sleestack
For the tl;dr crowd: 1-20 content in Praetoria is necessary on release of GR so new players can have something to do in the new zones. Endgame content is much less important *right now*, because the focus is on getting * and keeping* new players *right now*.
Of course the devs concentrated on 1-20 content rather than endgame for this expansissue. Think about it...they had a new expansion and issue coming out, and they could either include the 1-20 Praetorian content, or the Incarnate system for endgame. They are hoping that GR brings in new players. By definition, new players do not have level 50 characters. Thus, endgame content would be of no use to new players, until they reached 50. Also, while we vets can probably run through the 1-20 Praetorian content in a short time, newbies most likely won't. We all know how to slot enhancements, how to use Wentworth's, where the train stations are and how to use them, how and when to get a Raptor Pack, etc., etc. Newbies don't know this stuff, and that will slow their progress through the early levels. I know it did for me, and we didn't even have most of the stuff I mentioned when I was a newbie. So 1-20 content is likely to last any new players more than long enough for the devs to finish the Incarnate system and implement it well before any new players reach the level cap. Also, it would have been pretty damn stupid to make a whole new SIDE to the game, roll it out and say, "Look at the new Praetorian zones! Aren't they beautiful? Of course you can't actually DO anything in them, because we were working on endgame content rather than content for the whole new part of the game we just rolled out." |
Hey! None of your common sense and rational explanations here buddy. This here be the Internet, and we don't cotton to your kind of babble round here. So take yer explunashuns an git out!
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OP - it's probably time for you to take a break. I don't mean this is a put down sort of way, but if the game doesn't meet your expectations, vote with your wallet and time and come back when it does. |
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
With Praetoria being only for NEW created characters and even then only from lvls 1-20, a big chunk of the expectation was cut out of the game for me.
On top of that Incarnate system being delayed and failing to see any other kind of end game system. The ONLY thing for a lvl 50 to do is change their alignment and do Cathedral of Pain (at least as far as I know, because if there is more it's not readily apparent). So after moving my Dom and MM to hero side.. it's like ok what to do now? Same stupid stuff I been doing for a while already. Going Rogue was not the overhaul thing game needed. And right now all that hype seemed just that, hype. Waiting for the first issue after an expac's release is not the way to go about doing things. Not only that but no archs were touched... no new pool powers, or travel powers. Couple added main power sets. Of which Demon Summoning is interesting (but been playing that for months now) and Elec control looks interesting, but since controllers/doms are my fav arch I've played all the ones I care to. No urge to level an elec/ I doubt the explosion of population will last that long. Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already. Only the die hard CoX fans are ecstatic about it all. |
I find the reaction to the expansion fairly interesting. On one hand, having played some of the GR missions, the story arcs and the tech involved with them is some of the most engrossing MMO fare I've ever seen. And I'm not saying this with a fanboi-ish perspective...it truly is amazing content that has the richness you'd only expect to find in single person RPGs.
On the other hand, I think there's been a shift of emphasis for this expansion towards attracting new players and enticing players who played years ago but haven't touched the City of series for some time. This sort of goes against the stated emphasis made by Positron way back in the day to cater to the existing player base. Regardless of how good the new low level content is, many in the existing player base are attached to their mains and high level characters. And if you look at the expansion with that perspective, it is a lightweight add-on to their existing play options.
I think much of this sense of...for the lack of a better word, betrayal, could be mitigated with the statement from the devs on their future plans. Yes, I know that they've shared bits and pieces of this already (Incarnates coming, the Coming Storm, etc.), but having a consolidated view of the future could put some of this to rest. I know it's strange to ask for something like this just days after the release of a new expansion, but a little communications to ease the aching hearts out there could help keep people in the fold.
Just my .02 inf.
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Sorry. I've been suffering from a severe case of Rationality for about 45 years now. Most of the time the medication (Dr. Jose Cuervo's Patented Rationality Remover and Margarita Ingredient) takes care of it. Looks like I need another dose, stat!
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Hey! None of your common sense and rational explanations here buddy. This here be the Internet, and we don't cotton to your kind of babble round here. So take yer explunashuns an git out!
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Actually, both are important RIGHT NOW. Why is that other game enhancing both their low level and high level experience? Because, sure you want to cater to new players, but you don't forget the people already paying you.|
Originally Posted by sleestack
For the tl;dr crowd: 1-20 content in Praetoria is necessary on release of GR so new players can have something to do in the new zones. Endgame content is much less important *right now*, because the focus is on getting * and keeping* new players *right now*.
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And yes, I know you all love your 234th alts very much.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The question for me is, did they have the resources to do both at once but did not, and if so, why? Or is it possible that the upgrades to their tech required to make the new content took more of their resources than it otherwise would? Or do they just not have that many resources?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Actually, both are important RIGHT NOW. Why is that other game enhancing both their low level and high level experience? Because, sure you want to cater to new players, but you don't forget the people already paying you.
And yes, I know you all love your 234th alts very much. |
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
I don't see why you folks all have to swoop in and shout down anyone who expresses disappointment at Going Rogue. Sure people who were in beta have heard all this before, but the OP hasn't had the opportunity to give his feedback. His feedback was respectfully stated and fair and you all know that others have expressed the same view.