You're saying they should have waited until the end game stuff was finished to release the expansion?
I think that would have been a very bad idea. The idea behind what they did was that most people would create new characters to play Praetoria and the new power sets anyway, and by the time they got those characters to the end game the next issue full of end game content would be ready for release.
People who don't want to start new characters also get to do tip missions and switch sides, more than doubling the content for that character.
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Point one: Paragon Studios announced ALL the way back to Herocon that Praetoria would be levels 1-20 to start with.|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
With Praetoria being only for NEW created characters and even then only from lvls 1-20, a big chunk of the expectation was cut out of the game for me.
On top of that Incarnate system being delayed and failing to see any other kind of end game system. The ONLY thing for a lvl 50 to do is change their alignment and do Cathedral of Pain (at least as far as I know, because if there is more it's not readily apparent). So after moving my Dom and MM to hero side.. it's like ok what to do now? Same stupid stuff I been doing for a while already. Going Rogue was not the overhaul thing game needed. And right now all that hype seemed just that, hype. Waiting for the first issue after an expac's release is not the way to go about doing things. Not only that but no archs were touched... no new pool powers, or travel powers. Couple added main power sets. Of which Demon Summoning is interesting (but been playing that for months now) and Elec control looks interesting, but since controllers/doms are my fav arch I've played all the ones I care to. No urge to level an elec/ I doubt the explosion of population will last that long. Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already. Only the die hard CoX fans are ecstatic about it all. |
Point two: Tip-missions and the Cathedral of Pain Trial are both good pieces of content to run through and is infinitely better than nothing at all. And the tip missions aren't glorified paper-missions either.
Point three: Going Rogue never claimed to be an overhaul of the game, the fact the core element to the expansion of side-switching should've hinted to you that you'd be going from one side to the other, and if you've played both sides, the reasoning completes itself. Plus the aforementioned Praetoria was only for lowbies at announcement, until endgame content is released next issue.
Point four: The Alpha slot was only a PREVIEW of the Incarnate system to be fully released for issue 19, the delay was for a good reason, it wasn't giving exemplared characters any benefit or something like that and needed to be reworked. And it's been a trend since the beginning of the game's creation to spread an expansion over two issues, the launch issue and the issue after. Going Rogue is no exception.
Point five: Yes there were changes to some story arcs, particularly Maria Jenkin's and...okay I forget the other one, but the two hero story arcs related to Portal Corp and Praetoria has been altered to reflect the new story, and I heard that it's possible to get some defeat badges of the new praetorian enemies in this revamp too.
Essentially, Going Rogue's launch is only part one of the expansion's grand design. The launch issue is mainly to set both the new additions and tweaks as well as establishing good lowbie experience. The next issue coming is speculated to be all about the endgame, highbie content and progression. And considering that Paragon studio also says the Incarnate system is only accessible to Going Rogue players hints that it's meant to be part of the expansion as well.
Issue 19 is also speculated to be when Primal and ex-praetorian characters can return to Praetoria, or gain access if they don't already now.
Home server: Victory
Characters on: Victory & Virtue
My first 50(0)! 18/11/11
@Oneirohero
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Really now? And what statistics or hard evidence have you used to actually determine this?
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already.
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The fallacy with that is that Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols have been out for months now. There's no shortage of level 50s of those sets.|
Originally Posted by Khiva
You're saying they should have waited until the end game stuff was finished to release the expansion?
I think that would have been a very bad idea. The idea behind what they did was that most people would create new characters to play Praetoria and the new power sets anyway, and by the time they got those characters to the end game the next issue full of end game content would be ready for release. People who don't want to start new characters also get to do tip missions and switch sides, more than doubling the content for that character. |
And expansions are supposed to expand your playing in many areas. Hell most expansions I've ever seen focused mostly on expanding things to do at the ultimate level. Many even upping the level you can get to. We've been level 50 for years with the same boring powers and nothing added. All we've gotten is power proliferation and new epic-ats. Now we finally get 4 new powersets for that ATs. DS which I think is actually great, and DP has some great animations. But most people agree that DP and KM are pretty lackluster. Maybe that will change for KM as people get higher and learn more about it. And Elec is so similar to other control sets that it's not that exciting in my opinion.
They have had years and years to work on a new expansion. Why is it's strange that people would think it would come with more stuff to do at level 50. It's not like they've only had a few months to come out with it and have stuff ready for release.
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Well, he's right in that "many" is more than "a few" and we've had more than a few on the forums complaining of the same things.|
LiquidX wants the polling data: Really now? And what statistics or hard evidence have you used to actually determine this? |
That said, whether or not that's of any significance at all is another story. Finding a handful of people to agree with complaints in this game was never hard.
Dec out.
Man, there's always one in every crowd.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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1. I didn't do herocon or read up on it. They never mentioned it on the GR site or in any noticeable way were anyone who decided to read up on it, would be like oh.. only 1-20 huh.|
Originally Posted by Oneirohero
Point one: Paragon Studios announced ALL the way back to Herocon that Praetoria would be levels 1-20 to start with.
Point two: Tip-missions and the Cathedral of Pain Trial are both good pieces of content to run through and is infinitely better than nothing at all. And the tip missions aren't glorified paper-missions either. Point three: Going Rogue never claimed to be an overhaul of the game, the fact the core element to the expansion of side-switching should've hinted to you that you'd be going from one side to the other, and if you've played both sides, the reasoning completes itself. Plus the aforementioned Praetoria was only for lowbies at announcement, until endgame content is released next issue. Point four: The Alpha slot was only a PREVIEW of the Incarnate system to be fully released for issue 19, the delay was for a good reason, it wasn't giving exemplared characters any benefit or something like that and needed to be reworked. And it's been a trend since the beginning of the game's creation to spread an expansion over two issues, the launch issue and the issue after. Going Rogue is no exception. Point five: Yes there were changes to some story arcs, particularly Maria Jenkin's and...okay I forget the other one, but the two hero story arcs related to Portal Corp and Praetoria has been altered to reflect the new story, and I heard that it's possible to get some defeat badges of the new praetorian enemies in this revamp too. Essentially, Going Rogue's launch is only part one of the expansion's grand design. The launch issue is mainly to set both the new additions and tweaks as well as establishing good lowbie experience. The next issue coming is speculated to be all about the endgame, highbie content and progression. And considering that Paragon studio also says the Incarnate system is only accessible to Going Rogue players hints that it's meant to be part of the expansion as well. Issue 19 is also speculated to be when Primal and ex-praetorian characters can return to Praetoria, or gain access if they don't already now. |
2. Yes.. there is CoP.. which was beaten in 18 minutes by a Victory group. All this way for 18 minutes of fun, a badge and ability to buy more of the same IOs already in game. Tip missions are all right. But they lack substance.
3. Acutally they were quite fond of allusions to overhaul and the game being different than you ever seen up to this point. And the side switching part is actually a nice thing. Not arguing that. But outside of that, you're pretty much stuck with lack of content unless you level a new character. IMO, mind I say opinion, expansions should have a lot of new content to go along with it. CoX is the only game I've seen, well not even that, really GR is the only xpac I've seen where that's not true.
4. A preview is better than nothing. And depending on how long you have to wait, well then kills some the hype of waiting until GR... when it's really waiting to i19.
5. Those things were change due to Praetoria... kind had to without a broken story.
All in all, unlike CoV, though people had issues with it. GR is just a glorified issue. Which sure expacs are generally issues... but still more robust than an issue. It's cool to bring in new people and all, but the word is i19 is a while away from coming out. And my qualm is that GR brings nothing to keep me wanting to play. It's too easy to switch sides and I've never been a big fan of the end game too much. Hoped new expacs would make it better.
[QUOTE=LiquidX;3136350]Really now? And what statistics or hard evidence have you used to actually determine this? QUOTE]
Many people agree with LiquidX.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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I'm hardly the only one thinking this. The rise and fall of server population can show some indication.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Man, there's always one in every crowd.
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And sorry to rain on your parade, but it's always fine and dandy when people come on the forum screaming how much they love the expansion and people agreeing with them, but as soon as someone mentions what they don't like... oh no, that's just wrong. They're just trying to be negative and bring the game down. Well news flash. There's always two sides to every story.
Well, if CoH is still around in 6 months, we'll know the OP was wrong.
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Huh? I never said the game was going to die out. It's the only decent game of the genre. Champions doesn't even compare. I just said the explosion of population will die back down again. Disclaimer to that, is if it takes to long or they fail to implement interesting things to keep you occupied as a level 50.|
Originally Posted by dbuter
Well, if CoH is still around in 6 months, we'll know the OP was wrong.
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Considering I've been playing all this time and seen population go from full to what it has been pre-GR. You can see that I like the game. Or I wouldn't even be in here. I just feel there are other areas of improvement they can make. To get a better game people must speak out on what they feel could make it better.
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I agree. But making broad statements that can't be proven ("I don't like "x" item, so many people must agree with me!") isn't the way to do it.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
To get a better game people must speak out on what they feel could make it better.
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You know, I've never understood this whole "Endgame" thing that people always ask for in an MMORPG. How exactly do you "end" a game when it's very nature requires it to be perpetual?
If you really want to be able to "end" your character's career as a hero, Villain, or Praetorian then you really have no further to look than the big red DELETE button.
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Peoples knee jerking is coming from the mass of such posts, I reckon. |
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
I'm not trolling. I didn't plan on expressing my opinion and leaving it at that. If someone is going to reply, then I will back up my reasoning. Now as for the people who are only replying with knee-jerk reply of "oh he's trolling" are more of a troll than I am. Sorry if you can't accept people expressing negative review of your precious game.
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Basically, the answer is the same as I've been trying to give on the other threads.
Next Issue. Thats when the Incarnate system goes live. Thats when it was always going live. That will have the level 50 stuff that you and, yes, other are craving. The key is patience; good things take time.
The fact that Positron and an entire sub-team in Paragon Studios are working exclusively on end-game content and the Incarnate system should be reassuring.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Been in the game since the end of Beta in '04, maintained 2 accounts for the past 5 years etc...here is what I'm disappointed with:
While I understand that we were told "way back when" that Praetoria would be a 1 - 20 zone, I'm a little disappointed there isn't more. You can work your way up to 20 in 2 or 3 gaming sessions and then...
Side switching is great, but I don't see it as opening any new content. I've run everything on both sides over and over with tons of alts and doing it on opposite sides with newly switched characters is...meh
I am disappointed that an entirely new expansion didn't include MUCH needed end-game content, more new enemies for both sides, more new powers, and more enhancements etc. The expansion just doesn't feel significant. It feels like an issue update really. CoV felt like an expansion.
Maybe it's game fatigue...I've taken breaks from the game here and there, but I am a pretty disappointed customer. I've loved this game, defended Dev moves, altered my characters with nerfs and buffs over and over again...but I'm sitting here with servers full of 50s and well, I've kinda hit the wall that I was hoping GR would break down. It hasn't.
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The "Endgame" does not refer to "finishing" the game. The idea behind the "Endgame" in MMO's is that people want a way to continue to play the characters they put their (figurative) Blood, Sweat, and Tears (Or, in some peoples cases, phat stacks of paper) into. The "endgame" can consist of high level raids or other activities that can give the player a way to feel like they are making some kind of progress, even when they are no longer gaining levels and have exhausted the "normal" content.|
Originally Posted by TheWidower
You know, I've never understood this whole "Endgame" thing that people always ask for in an MMORPG. How exactly do you "end" a game when it's very nature requires it to be perpetual?
If you really want to be able to "end" your character's career as a hero, Villain, or Praetorian then you really have no further to look than the big red DELETE button. |
This mindset also comes from games like WoW, which don't really "begin" until you hit Max Level and start doing raids and other "endgame" content.
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But how long are we supposed to wait? To be honest, we've been waiting 6 years for real endgame content.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The key is patience; good things take time.
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Though, to be fair, there are the people that play every mmo as if "the game begins at the endgame" - they race to the cap and then ask "what next?"
They got side-switching and Cathedral of Pain. if they're so narrowly-focused that they don't badge or care to challenge themselves with older content on a different build, the system isn't for them.
well, that and...
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The fallacy with that argument is that Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols was available only to the Going Rogue prepurchasers. In essence, you've been playing and appreciating part of Going Rogue long before the expansion was released. It's still part of GR and still part of the GR experience... so guess there's something else to do...|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse The fallacy with that is that Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols have been out for months now... |
...along with 2 new powersets that weren't made available beforehand, if you want to try the new content out.
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The reality is that, as the devs have noted before, many longtime subscribers don't play their characters all the way to 50. They have the access to the datamining to see what the majority of their players are doing and what they'd probably get the MOST value out of in the expansion.
The OP's not in that demographic. Others won't be either. They weren't entirely ignored (CoP), but they weren't lavishly catered to either.
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Don't we already have that in the form of Rikti/Hami Raids, badge-hunting, Super Rare Purple Invention Enhancements of Doom for Everything, PvP, et. al? Maybe I'm just in the slow class, but my main is a 50 that I've had for well over a year now and I'm struggling to keep up with just getting badges. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever done a Hami Raid...
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Originally Posted by LiquidX
(Choppy) The "endgame" can consist of high level raids or other activities that can give the player a way to feel like they are making some kind of progress, even when they are no longer gaining levels and have exhausted the "normal" content.
This mindset also comes from games like WoW, which don't really "begin" until you hit Max Level and start doing raids and other "endgame" content. |
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse So after moving my Dom and MM to hero side.. it's like ok what to do now? Same stupid stuff I been doing for a while already. Going Rogue was not the overhaul thing game needed. And right now all that hype seemed just that, hype. |
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Originally Posted by LiquidX The "Endgame" does not refer to "finishing" the game. The idea behind the "Endgame" in MMO's is that people want a way to continue to play the characters they put their (figurative) Blood, Sweat, and Tears (Or, in some peoples cases, phat stacks of paper) into. The "endgame" can consist of high level raids or other activities that can give the player a way to feel like they are making some kind of progress, even when they are no longer gaining levels and have exhausted the "normal" content. This mindset also comes from games like WoW, which don't really "begin" until you hit Max Level and start doing raids and other "endgame" content. |
"There's no endgame - just the same stupid stuff I've been doing"
What, you mean like the 1,000th time you've run that particular same raid over in every other MMO hoping for that one ultra-rare drop?????
Normally as soon as I hear whining about how there's nothing to do in this game, I tune out and go make a new alt.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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Not everyone is a badger, not everyone likes PvP, and not everyone cares for the Hami raids.
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Originally Posted by TheWidower
Don't we already have that in the form of Rikti/Hami Raids, badge-hunting, Super Rare Purple Invention Enhancements of Doom for Everything, PvP, et. al? Maybe I'm just in the slow class, but my main is a 50 that I've had for well over a year now and I'm struggling to keep up with just getting badges. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever done a Hami Raid...
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Originally Posted by TheWidower
Don't we already have that in the form of Rikti/Hami Raids, badge-hunting, Super Rare Purple Invention Enhancements of Doom for Everything, PvP, et. al? Maybe I'm just in the slow class, but my main is a 50 that I've had for well over a year now and I'm struggling to keep up with just getting badges. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever done a Hami Raid...
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Same here. I've got two 50's, one of which i've done rather a lot with, and namely, having not done a Hami raid. But still, those are things which can be done over and over until you get bored. Then, you roll up a completely different character, for example, instead of a Tanker, rolling a Defender.
If it's the case that someone has done every possible combination of characters ever and done 'everything' with them ... well ... sucks to be them.
In any case, i'm glad that Praetoria is starting off as a 1-20 zone, it means that the Devs aren't hellbent on End-game, like some other MMORPG's. Because end-game is all good, but i find that getting there (As in, the level cap) is infinitley more rewarding. Believe me, i squealed when i saw the words "You have advanced to Level 50" show up. I was still excited the 3rd time i did a MSR, but it doesn't compare to hitting the level cap. But that's just me.
I was doing some playthroughs of City of Heroes. Now they will serve as memories of a better time ...
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Okay, point, but then that's not saying there's no endgame content available. That's saying that you (figuratively speaking) don't like the endgame content that's available, which is a totally separate issue.
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Originally Posted by LiquidX
Not everyone is a badger, not everyone likes PvP, and not everyone cares for the Hami raids.
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I've just returned to CoH after several months on other games (sometimes a change of scene is good) and, having recent experience of how this focus on endgame can poison and warp an MMO and its community it feels great to be back in CoH, where end game is one thing to do, rather than the only thing.
In at least one game I can think of (it'll go unnamed but I'm sure everyone knows which one I mean) the endgame doesn't increase your options. It narrows them. Sure there's so many max level raids you could do, but few people do any of them - except for speed runs to gear up for that one 'end of the end game' raid.
With Praetoria being only for NEW created characters and even then only from lvls 1-20, a big chunk of the expectation was cut out of the game for me.
On top of that Incarnate system being delayed and failing to see any other kind of end game system. The ONLY thing for a lvl 50 to do is change their alignment and do Cathedral of Pain (at least as far as I know, because if there is more it's not readily apparent).
So after moving my Dom and MM to hero side.. it's like ok what to do now? Same stupid stuff I been doing for a while already. Going Rogue was not the overhaul thing game needed. And right now all that hype seemed just that, hype.
Waiting for the first issue after an expac's release is not the way to go about doing things. Not only that but no archs were touched... no new pool powers, or travel powers. Couple added main power sets. Of which Demon Summoning is interesting (but been playing that for months now) and Elec control looks interesting, but since controllers/doms are my fav arch I've played all the ones I care to. No urge to level an elec/
I doubt the explosion of population will last that long. Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already. Only the die hard CoX fans are ecstatic about it all.