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End-game doesn't mean to end the game. Leveling games are 2 phased. The leveling phase in which you are progressing your characters through the levels and then the End-game phase in which you can no longer level anymore and more emphasis is put on what you can do in this game. This generally comes about since without the need to level anymore, developers need to put out content to keep that maxed character interested and playing in their virtual world.
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Originally Posted by TheWidower
You know, I've never understood this whole "Endgame" thing that people always ask for in an MMORPG. How exactly do you "end" a game when it's very nature requires it to be perpetual?
If you really want to be able to "end" your character's career as a hero, Villain, or Praetorian then you really have no further to look than the big red DELETE button. |
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Ok, this put it much more eloquently than I could.
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Originally Posted by SoilentGreen
Been in the game since the end of Beta in '04, maintained 2 accounts for the past 5 years etc...here is what I'm disappointed with:
While I understand that we were told "way back when" that Praetoria would be a 1 - 20 zone, I'm a little disappointed there isn't more. You can work your way up to 20 in 2 or 3 gaming sessions and then... Side switching is great, but I don't see it as opening any new content. I've run everything on both sides over and over with tons of alts and doing it on opposite sides with newly switched characters is...meh I am disappointed that an entirely new expansion didn't include MUCH needed end-game content, more new enemies for both sides, more new powers, and more enhancements etc. The expansion just doesn't feel significant. It feels like an issue update really. CoV felt like an expansion. Maybe it's game fatigue...I've taken breaks from the game here and there, but I am a pretty disappointed customer. I've loved this game, defended Dev moves, altered my characters with nerfs and buffs over and over again...but I'm sitting here with servers full of 50s and well, I've kinda hit the wall that I was hoping GR would break down. It hasn't. |
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The only thing is, is that most games *NEED* endgame content because there is little, if any, incentive to play Alts. Once you've gotten to level 9,001 in "Generic MMO: The Grinding: Super Bloodlines Turbo 2 Championship edition", you've pretty much done everything. Rolling up a new Half Drow-Dwarf Warrior Monk of Puppy Kicking isn't going to change anything, because the experience is pretty much going to be the same. |
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
End-game doesn't mean to end the game. Leveling games are 2 phased. The leveling phase in which you are progressing your characters through the levels and then the End-game phase in which you can no longer level anymore and more emphasis is put on what you can do in this game. This generally comes about since without the need to level anymore, developers need to put out content to keep that maxed character interested and playing in their virtual world.
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With City of Heroes/Villains however, you can play two Scrappers, and have the experience be completly different both Visually, and Gameplay wise, simply by changing your Powerset and Power Pool selections. Therefore, the need for "Endgame" content simply isn't as demanding as other games.
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Well I never intentionally aim to shoot through levels. I tend to build characters I love so much that I don't stop playing them. And next thing you know, BAM you're 50. Then you can work on IOing them out and because even more fun and powerful. Thing is, while it was fun leveling my toons, they are considerably weaker than their lvl 50 finished selves. I'd like more content to challenge how powerful I've become, not make another alt and start the being very weak to going strong again. |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Agreed.
Though, to be fair, there are the people that play every mmo as if "the game begins at the endgame" - they race to the cap and then ask "what next?" They got side-switching and Cathedral of Pain. if they're so narrowly-focused that they don't badge or care to challenge themselves with older content on a different build, the system isn't for them. |
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
The fallacy with that argument is that Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols was available only to the Going Rogue prepurchasers. In essence, you've been playing and appreciating part of Going Rogue long before the expansion was released. It's still part of GR and still part of the GR experience... so guess there's something else to do...
...along with 2 new powersets that weren't made available beforehand, if you want to try the new content out. |
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The reality is that, as the devs have noted before, many longtime subscribers don't play their characters all the way to 50. They have the access to the datamining to see what the majority of their players are doing and what they'd probably get the MOST value out of in the expansion.
The OP's not in that demographic. Others won't be either. They weren't entirely ignored (CoP), but they weren't lavishly catered to either.[/QUOTE]
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Or... there's only so many times you can get the same badges on different characters. I love PvP, but CoX has watered it down so much as to be similar to a FPS... The things that distinguish an AT is barely useful in pvp anymore. And I've done did so many Hami and Rikti raids. Now I will do CoP... but let's get real, that's only 3 raids.|
Originally Posted by LiquidX
Not everyone is a badger, not everyone likes PvP, and not everyone cares for the Hami raids.
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The difference between MMOs with designed encounters and as someone mentioned above, and CoX that with other raids they have a lot more, and they are 10 times more involved than CoX's.
Hami Raid - Kill monsters so your tanks can get their insps. Then target different colored balls inside hami until he's vulnerable, do that a couple times and done.
Rikti - Kill pylons, get on top of ship.. stand there's nuking or healing or buffing everything in sight and bam, kill GM, done. Most people aren't even involved in the bomb dropping.
And the rewards aren't even comparable. Badge are cool to get, but except for a few does nothing to change your character. And my main characters are complete.
But new better IOs aren't coming out to upgrade to. New abilities for your toons aren't coming out to upgrade to. New Raids, aren't coming out to upgrade to. Well one new one did but the IO rewards are the same. So if you're complete already it's only some fun that lasts a small amount of time and that's that. No 1-2 days to clear challenging content.
And only tips missions and Praetoria content so far has the new cool mission design where you have moral choices. So we're still just waiting.
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New content is on its way with every issue. Unlike other games, CoX adds content regularly and not just in paid expansions. Would we want no issues for expansions 3 times the size? It has pros and cons. Personally I'm happy with my issues. ;-)
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
With Praetoria being only for NEW created characters and even then only from lvls 1-20, a big chunk of the expectation was cut out of the game for me.
On top of that Incarnate system being delayed and failing to see any other kind of end game system. The ONLY thing for a lvl 50 to do is change their alignment and do Cathedral of Pain (at least as far as I know, because if there is more it's not readily apparent). So after moving my Dom and MM to hero side.. it's like ok what to do now? Same stupid stuff I been doing for a while already. Going Rogue was not the overhaul thing game needed. And right now all that hype seemed just that, hype. Waiting for the first issue after an expac's release is not the way to go about doing things. Not only that but no archs were touched... no new pool powers, or travel powers. Couple added main power sets. Of which Demon Summoning is interesting (but been playing that for months now) and Elec control looks interesting, but since controllers/doms are my fav arch I've played all the ones I care to. No urge to level an elec/ I doubt the explosion of population will last that long. Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already. Only the die hard CoX fans are ecstatic about it all. |
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And that's a nice way to go too. But I think if they were really interested in giving people a better leveling experience they would take a look at the AT powers. They have been the same since the start. It would be more interesting for them to start building into the ATs more choices to get such as the epic-ATs get where you can choose what to take and distinguish yourself from other ATs that are the same as you. Not only that, but there different between primaries in a certain AT is very minimal. Same kind of power that takes on a mostly useless secondary. DO/SO/IO take care of any issues you have with being hit, not being able to hit and what not. Some are actually useful like the -recharge or the slows. And other than that, the buff/debuff powers of an AT can take care of the rest.
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Originally Posted by TheShattered
Same here. I've got two 50's, one of which i've done rather a lot with, and namely, having not done a Hami raid. But still, those are things which can be done over and over until you get bored. Then, you roll up a completely different character, for example, instead of a Tanker, rolling a Defender.
If it's the case that someone has done every possible combination of characters ever and done 'everything' with them ... well ... sucks to be them. In any case, i'm glad that Praetoria is starting off as a 1-20 zone, it means that the Devs aren't hellbent on End-game, like some other MMORPG's. Because end-game is all good, but i find that getting there (As in, the level cap) is infinitley more rewarding. Believe me, i squealed when i saw the words "You have advanced to Level 50" show up. I was still excited the 3rd time i did a MSR, but it doesn't compare to hitting the level cap. But that's just me. |
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One could also say that there's only so many times you could earn the same Epic Gear on different characters, but that never seems to stop anyone.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Or... there's only so many times you can get the same badges on different characters.
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If you open that harscore raiding door door, you open the game up to a lot of negative things. Elitism, tiered content, big baddies only the few will face. This game is not like that, heck CoH could be considered a whole different genre to that. I hate to say it, but if it's big raids and fancy rewards that you want then you are better off returning back there. In my eyes, it is hardly the pinnacle of what games should strive for. It is too much like work and not enough fun, especially as a guild leader like I was.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
But new better IOs aren't coming out to upgrade to. New abilities for your toons aren't coming out to upgrade to. New Raids, aren't coming out to upgrade to. Well one new one did but the IO rewards are the same. So if you're complete already it's only some fun that lasts a small amount of time and that's that. No 1-2 days to clear challenging content.
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Originally Posted by Khiva
You're saying they should have waited until the end game stuff was finished to release the expansion?
I think that would have been a very bad idea. The idea behind what they did was that most people would create new characters to play Praetoria and the new power sets anyway, and by the time they got those characters to the end game the next issue full of end game content would be ready for release. People who don't want to start new characters also get to do tip missions and switch sides, more than doubling the content for that character. |
Heh. It wouldn't have been a bad idea if lvl 1-20 didn't take like 3 days to play. >.> And hitting the "end game" took more then a month or 2 at most. *shrug* Then yeah. But as is, the content we got will prolly be a bit stale in the 4 to 6 months it'll take them to get issue 19 out.
Now don't get me wrong here, they needed to release this when they did to keep intrest alive and breath new life into the game, so yeah, had to do it. It's just... this "explansion" does feel alittle light for a box expansion. I still paided for it, and plan on playing, for the forseeable future, but, yeah, i was kind of expecting a BIT more... at least a new TF to go with the new zone...maybe a new high end TF... *shrug* Yes yes, i know it's ALOT of work to make a whole new zone and 20 levels of content, but, the fact remains, it's quickly blown through too. And sad sad truth in MMO development.
At least if they'd left in the incarnet system teaser, we could split our time between the new content and incarnent sharde collecting. *shurg* (yes, i too was mainly looking forward to the end game stuff.. and saddend deeply to see it put off.)
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
By the thread title it seems that you understand that the failing here is yours. As long as we understand each other.
Carry on. 
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
I'm hardly the only one thinking this. The rise and fall of server population can show some indication.
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No one pays to see Citizen Kane in theaters anymore. This is proof that we've all realized how bad it is.
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As for CoX... it's jsut too easy to accomplish the different things. Also badges can't be compared to epic gear. It would be badges versus achievements. And IOs vers epic gear.|
Originally Posted by LiquidX
I've played both. And I only made it about four, five months tops before losing interest in "The other game", and repeated attempts to start up again with each new expansion have led to the same results. And yet here I am in CoH/V, six years later, and STILL interested.
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I've played off and on CoX since CoH release. There's a lot to be said about the game. So many fun aspects to it... just after years it doesn't seem like it's advancing what you can do in it very much. It's with too much of this you say either really good expansion, CoH2 or new game. Because people are going to go looking for a new experience, not more of the same. Like people will reread a treasured book, but they will only so many times.
The difference between an MMO and a single player stand alone is that the world and your character should be constantly growing and changing.
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Really? I spent the last six years playing the game.
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Originally Posted by SoilentGreen
But how long are we supposed to wait? To be honest, we've been waiting 6 years for real endgame content.
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There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Not in any particular order:|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
The difference between an MMO and a single player stand alone is that the world and your character should be constantly growing and changing.
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Shadow Shard, CoV, Cim, RCS->RWZ, Oro/Flashback, Inventions, PvP (yeah), new powersets, EATs (H & V), AE, Posi Revamped (more to follow?) and new S/TFs like STF, ITF, LRSF, LGTF, power customization, SSK, Praet zones, side-switching, merged markets, all the others changes I don't feel like typing out, all in the last 6 years?
What more do you want?
I really can't help but feel like "Raise the Level Cap" and "More End Game Content" are akin to the "it has electrolytes" argument.
We have 20 levels of new content that can be experienced, at the very minimum, 4 different ways. I can do some weird science jumbo that says we just got 80 levels of content. I'll do it. I have the chalkboard on hand.
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I'm pretty sure which one you're talking about, and the funny thing is I'm on vacation from a different one where the exact same thing is true.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
In at least one game I can think of (it'll go unnamed but I'm sure everyone knows which one I mean) the endgame doesn't increase your options. It narrows them. Sure there's so many max level raids you could do, but few people do any of them - except for speed runs to gear up for that one 'end of the end game' raid.
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Endgame is what you make it. Constantly raising the level cap and obsoleting anything you added in the LAST expansion turns the MMO into a deathrace.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
This generally comes about since without the need to level anymore, developers need to put out content to keep that maxed character interested and playing in their virtual world.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Because people are going to go looking for a new experience, not more of the same. Like people will reread a treasured book, but they will only so many times.
The difference between an MMO and a single player stand alone is that the world and your character should be constantly growing and changing. |
Your opinion is that these things need to happen, and that, as an opinion, is quite valid.
There are, apparently, several thousand paying customers that simply do not share that opinion, proven through the data mining talked about here as well as the personal comments.
I have been here pretty much from the start like many of the other posters and I am not board with the game, even after a dozen or so 50's and who knows how many other characters at this point. All of my RL friends that play the game are not board with it either, the ones that have been here form the start as well as the new ones.
It seems obvious by your remarks on tactics as well, that you desire a different game. City is what it is. There are thousands of us that like it the way it is. I have a very, very stressful, mentally challenging job. The last thing I want to do with my free time is have to come up with and follow a complex strategy in my video game world. I just want to kill lots of pixels and laugh with my friends as we send the bad guys flying off of buildings on fire.. I know I am not alone in this.
With other MMOs, the things that you think need to occur as well as more complex combat strategy can be found and that's where you can find them. Plenty of us, hopefully enough to keep the game going, love the way it works here now; love that the game does NOT start at 50 and love getting 'more of the same'.
As an addendum, that 'other' MMO just released statistics stating that less than 30% of the players every get past level 10. Even there, 'endgame' is not the only game.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
The way I see it, the devs realize that their newbie content sucked and that their end-game content sucked. They didn't have the resources to do both in one update, so they had to choose one or the other. They chose the newbie content.
We can debate whether that was a wise choice on their part, but from what they've said about I19, it seems they realize that they have an end-game deficiency that they have to focus on as well.
I'm personally happy with the choice they made, because I like the low game experience, and I'll get a lot more use out of it than new end-game content. But it's also clear that there's a large group of players that have the opposite opinion. I don't have any stats about what percentage of players have level 50 characters, but I would guess that if you looked at those stats you would see that most characters do not. So it might have made sense to go the route they did, and I hope that decision was informed.
Regardless, it's clear they're addressing the end game problem as quickly as they can, and hopefully it ends up being of the same high quality we got in Praetoria.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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Conversely though, after one has done this for the 12th or 13th time, it loses some of its allure to me, and I'd gather many others.
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Originally Posted by LiquidX
The only thing is, is that most games *NEED* endgame content because there is little, if any, incentive to play Alts. Once you've gotten to level 9,001 in "Generic MMO: The Grinding: Super Bloodlines Turbo 2 Championship edition", you've pretty much done everything. Rolling up a new Half Drow-Dwarf Warrior Monk of Puppy Kicking isn't going to change anything, because the experience is pretty much going to be the same.
With City of Heroes/Villains however, you can play two Scrappers, and have the experience be completly different both Visually, and Gameplay wise, simply by changing your Powerset and Power Pool selections. Therefore, the need for "Endgame" content simply isn't as demanding as other games. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Your behavior needs adjusting, citizen.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
I doubt the explosion of population will last that long. Many people have come to the same conclusion as I have already. Only the die hard CoX fans are ecstatic about it all.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'll even give you that, but if you hate playing pre-Stamina, pre-Tier 8-9 powers, this is of little comfort. My quarrel with Going Rogue is that it focuses on a time period of the game I absolutely despise. Please note I'm speaking for no one else but myself, so let's please no mutant arguments about how I don't have any statistics. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
I really can't help but feel like "Raise the Level Cap" and "More End Game Content" are akin to the "it has electrolytes" argument.
We have 20 levels of new content that can be experienced, at the very minimum, 4 different ways. I can do some weird science jumbo that says we just got 80 levels of content. I'll do it. I have the chalkboard on hand. |
Had Praetoria provided a leveling experience from 1-50, I think waiting for Issue 19 would be much more palatable because I could exemplar and do the 30+ content. I understand that a lot of folks like the game and love creating alts. I love creating alts, but seriously, I'm on my last row of 12 on my server. I've even given Praetoria a chance and created a few live alts.
I don't see why you folks all have to swoop in and shout down anyone who expresses disappointment at Going Rogue. Sure people who were in beta have heard all this before, but the OP hasn't had the opportunity to give his feedback. His feedback was respectfully stated and fair and you all know that others have expressed the same view.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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again though, its a question of philosophy. many, such as myself, see endgame raids as the same treadmill, but now with the added bonus of having long time commitments, a need to form up gorups with other players with your playtime and playstyle who may add additional responsibilities to your life (want to go out to dinner with your girlfriend on a raid night, you let your guild down!) and those raids, unless everything i have read is a lie, dont change each time you run them. So you are still treadmilling repetitive content, only now its hard, and only has a minute chance of dropping one part of what you will need. that is fun to some, particularly people who like traditional mmos, but for many or us, its the description of unanesthitised dental surgery. I guess the question is, should coh be competing with far larger and more popular games that already engage those costumers fully? or do they do their own thing and get the people not currently vested in larger games? if you only have the size and resources to do one..well, maybe trying to out gorilla the gorilla isnt the smartest move.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Conversely though, after one has done this for the 12th or 13th time, it loses some of its allure to me, and I'd gather many others.
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So, you aren't going to play half of the content that was released under the false assumption that it can't hold anything of meaningful importance because it isn't aimed at the level you wish to play. Then, you are going to declare the expansion lacks content.
Yeah, okay, that's a perfectly reasonable argument.
And while I agree that more (and more diverse) content could be added at the end of the game for those who hit 50, I don't agree that it's the all important fact that alot of people seem to think it is.