Quote:
They literally made some of them attack more slowly in a recent patch. I'm not going to get into that whole argument here, it has plenty of threads, but the very existence of so many threads should say something about public perception on this issue.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I don't think that's true of Praetoria mobs at all. I think they are just different, not overpowered.
|
Quote:
|
This is not currently possible. The devs have stated that certain mob groups cannot be scaled up just by moving a slider. Lower level mobs have attacks that are appropriate in number and effect for their intended level range only. They are simply not made to challenge players outside of their range. Whether or not you or I think this is a good idea, that is how the game is designed. They would have to rework each mob group to scale across all levels. Some, like the Circle of Thorns were built like that from the get-go. That's why you see them replacing their spawn composition with new enemies as you go up in level. Most, however, have a specific and intended level range that also ties into story and lore. In essence, you will not see a level 50 Hellion unless the devs reworked the Hellion group to scale that way. Which I I honestly do not think they will. |
Quote:
You sound concerned.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
What I want is for more people to subscribe and play... and bringing us new pay expansions that give low level content, is not the way to go.
|
Is there anything else we, the player base, can do to help you cancel quicker?
Quote:
You know what? I'm not near as nice as Arcanaville, so I'm going to get right to the point. There are things in this game that people will not like that will happen anyway. This is indisputable fact. I didn't(and still don't) think that MA was very good for this game. Other people disagree. MA happened anyway and I got over it.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I cannot understand all these people continually urging others to quit at the least provocation. Instead of going, "Well you know, you might be right... maybe we do need new things to do at all levels, what a good idea. We've just devoted an entire issue to the pre-stamina levels, now its time to break out the complex and challenging end content," its all [in essence] "Haha! don't like it? GTFO! We don't need your money!"
|
There is, however, a difference between stating that you dislike something, and making veiled threats and dire predictions about segments of the player population disappearing due to you not getting what you want.
I'm sure you're not unaware of the number of people who post in these forums day after day about how change x or y caused their supergroup and all their global friends to vanish into a puff of disgruntled-scented smoke.
And yet still, here people are, threatening the same tired old nonsense and giving their end-of-subscription dates. Well most of us here don't give a frikkin' freem!
Quote:
| We may well need the money of disgruntled people leaving. After all, for all this wondrous new pre-stamina content, I see most of the servers are already back down to one green dot. So much for that endlessly-fascinating new lowbie content....? hm. |
You don't have to take that advice, but no one should expect sympathy when they beat the 'I'm quitting and all my friends are quitting' drum. Everyone is tired of that particular rhythm. It's been done to death.
Quote:
I agree that some tweaks to certain missions and maybe some mobs were warranted. But that's a long way from me agreeing that Praetoria mobs on the whole are meant for medium to high level encounters. My 2 main Praetorian toons are a Stalker and Dominator. Those don't exactly scream 'survivable'.|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
They literally made some of them attack more slowly in a recent patch. I'm not going to get into that whole argument here, it has plenty of threads, but the very existence of so many threads should say something about public perception on this issue.
|
Quote:
| You must have skipped it, that is why I specifically named Psyche, Citadel, Manticore, and Numina. Freaks, Council, Crey, Freaks/Nemesis/Crey/CoT/DE. All of those enemy groups have existing level 50 composition. I didn't ask for level 50 Hellions. |
Quote:
Well, if you're not sure, why say anything? Unless people have specific, preferably recent dev quotes or data I generally find it worthless to speculate on their opinions. It sounds like you're nay-saying with no reason.
|
Originally Posted by Slashman
You're right. I did skip over that part quickly. I suppose they could do that with those TFs...maybe. I'm not sure they want TFs to work that way though.
|
Quote:
Its not speculation to state that its obvious from a design perspective that level-gated content is one of the bedrock principles of the progression system in City of Heroes, and that the exemplar system is explicitly designed to be a compromise between the level-gating aspect of content and the cross-level teaming feature they want to encourage when reasonably possible.|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
Well, if you're not sure, why say anything? Unless people have specific, preferably recent dev quotes or data I generally find it worthless to speculate on their opinions. It sounds like you're nay-saying with no reason.
|
Whether that compromise resolves in a particular way for a particular piece of content is not easy to predict without directly asking the devs, and even I do not tend to get direct answers to questions of that form often (that I can repeat). But its true as a principle that the desire for content to be as widely accessible as possible is not absolute, and is balanced against the desire to provide unique content at different level ranges. As is usually true, the question is one of where specifically the line is drawn.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
have you looked at the server lists lately? during the night they are all yellow or red, these are servers that havent been yellow on recent double exp weekends. lets be at least somewhat honest here, somebody is here that wasnt before gr launched. some will elave, hopefully some will stay, but to say that adding content was an idea that was not the way to go to get new people subscribed is simply demonstrably false.
|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
What I want is for more people to subscribe and play... and bringing us new pay expansions that give low level content, is not the way to go.
|
Personally I would have preferred it if GoRo contained content for both ends of the lvl spectrum.
However, the Incarnate system as implemented - do the same lvl 50 TFs that currently exist, just for new drops - was incredibly underdone. (You can argue that the CoP is new, but previously in this thread its been argued that wasn't part of GoRo because you can get it as part of I18).
Quote:
I was replying to the part of your post which said that all TFs could be made to scale to 50. You did specifically mention the ones with mobs that already fill their level range, but you also included all the other low level ones.|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
Well, if you're not sure, why say anything? Unless people have specific, preferably recent dev quotes or data I generally find it worthless to speculate on their opinions. It sounds like you're nay-saying with no reason.
|
My initial reply was almost a cut and paste of what devs have said about mob groups scaling and why it is a headache to make them all scale.
Even with me missing that part, you still implied that doing it for the low level TFs wouldn't be much work. I'm pretty sure that it still would take a significant amount of work to do. Also...doing it for some TFs and not all would be awkward.
Also, your basis for doing this is that you don't want to play without some of your powers. The lower levels are for exactly that. Playing with less powers and options than higher levels. It's still the same old argument about the game not being worth playing without stamina etc.
When the devs decide that this is the case, I'm sure they will do something about it. Currently, they don't seem to see a problem with it. I'm inclined to agree...but that's just my opinion.
im sure we could all list reams of things we would have liked, the question i guess is that if you look at the average content of expansions in the numerous mmos out there, can you honestly say that in comparison gr was really that light. now, ignoring the gorilla, since i never played the expansions and they have the financial resources of a medium sized european country, but going back to the original 3d gorilla, im not seeing a significantly large gulf of content, insofar as it can be directly compared.
I mean yeah, i want my usual list of dinosaur island, Japanese zone yadda yadda, but reasonably looking at what can be expected, its not that far off. I'd have liked more costume pieces, particularly since those that we got were all natural/tech looking(ok omega could be science/mutant/magic). but im not going to even pretend that im objective or rational on that topic, so im not going to say that i had a rational expectation to disappoint or not.
Quote:
It is absolutely a fact that strict level-gated content was a bedrock of this game as originally designed and released. However, changes since then have gone more or less directly the opposite way, while not eliminating previous limits altogether, allowing way more flexibility(Praetoria is an unfortunate turn from this trend, but I think the reasons behind it had little to do with this, and more to do with a "pristine" environment for the zone's launch). At this point cross-level teaming is possible almost all of the time, the primary exception being TF minimums. TFs used to be available only in the proper range, now anyone of the minimum level can do it. Scaling up would be just one more step.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not speculation to state that its obvious from a design perspective that level-gated content is one of the bedrock principles of the progression system in City of Heroes, and that the exemplar system is explicitly designed to be a compromise between the level-gating aspect of content and the cross-level teaming feature they want to encourage when reasonably possible.
|
Quote:
| Whether that compromise resolves in a particular way for a particular piece of content is not easy to predict without directly asking the devs, and even I do not tend to get direct answers to questions of that form often (that I can repeat). But its true as a principle that the desire for content to be as widely accessible as possible is not absolute, and is balanced against the desire to provide unique content at different level ranges. As is usually true, the question is one of where specifically the line is drawn. |
Quote:
I would still really REALLY love a spear set.
|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
remember how big 300 was, remember how many threads there were for spear melee, and a persian enemy group? now i doubt that was the sole motivator, but it was something very commonly asked for by the community.
|
Quote:
I'm sure you acting like a tool helps at least a little bit.
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
You sound concerned.
Is there anything else we, the player base, can do to help you cancel quicker? |
Quote:
So what you are actually arguing is that they should not have provided early access to these two powersets then.|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
The fallacy with that is that Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols have been out for months now. There's no shortage of level 50s of those sets.
|
As much as I have enjoyed having them, I would actually tend to agree with you. The fact that they have been around for a few months already seems to have caused some people to completely forget that they are actually part of Going Rogue and not just powersets that were added as part of the regular Issue releases.
- Garielle
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
|
Quote:
To use a metaphor, whose fault is it that they chose to open their Christmas presents early and as a result have nothing new to enjoy on Christmas morning? The devs didn't hold a gun to their heads and force them to buy the pre-purchase.|
Originally Posted by Garielle
So what you are actually arguing is that they should not have provided early access to these two powersets then.
As much as I have enjoyed having them, I would actually tend to agree with you. The fact that they have been around for a few months already seems to have caused some people to completely forget that they are actually part of Going Rogue and not just powersets that were added as part of the regular Issue releases. |
The same people that are now whining about being bored with DS and DP were the same ones that spent months gleefully running around the zones bragging "Look at me! I'm a special snowflake! I have early access and you don't! When GR goes live I'll have all my 50's ready and you'll still be slogging thru the low levels. Neener! Neener! Neener!"
I'll save my sympathy for the people that actually deserve it.
Since we're not allowed to mention other games anymore, I can only say that some of this defensiveness from loyal(ist) players against those who see GR as light content is strikingly familiar from elsewhere.
Those who are shoving the disgruntled out the door are also echoing what I saw elsewhere. They are having an emotional reaction just as toxic as the one they accuse the dissatisfied players of having. It's also just as tired.
I haven't seen much praise for what was achieved with GR. What was that phrase about damning with faint praise? Some of the rationale for launching Praetorians to primal Earth is just plain dumb and a bit contorted.
Sometimes I'm glad to be one of the preterites (in the Pynchonian sense) and not the favored few who get insider teases from the devs about what's coming down the line in a year or two. It's just a guess, but it seemed to me the dev team may have seen the need for more upper level content when Posi shifted positions. That change in gears may take years to bear fruit, though. Meanwhile...
I get why the expectations for I19 are high, it's just that GR has made me skeptical of their ability to deliver.
So I'll be at PAX this weekened at the NCSoft booth, but certainily not for any GR related reasons.
GR does fill a gap though, for years people have complained hero side start up sucks, villains always gert god damn snakes. So GR was imo a way to combat these complaints by giving us a engaging, challenging and rewarding starting area. True its not what everyone wanted, same as not everyone wanted MA or any number of additions but it was a often mentioned weakness of the game. Of course the troube is as it is with all new content, its not new forever, so one day people will say oh my god not that damn hospital level again. So at least we have another start zone.
As for the end game content being pulled ideal no but thats the trouble with devoloping things. sometimes what seems a good idea on paper takes a long time to refine in practice, so it will probably be worth the wait.
The end is just a new beginning, Goodbye all my coh friends and even the enemies, its been a blast I will miss you all. Thank you Paragon team, you gave me a home from home I will always appriciate it.
Quote:
Not really. Level-gated content has been the norm from launch to ten minutes ago last I checked. The vast overwhelming majority of content is level-gated. The vast overwhelming majority of content that has ever been added is level-gated. At no time have the devs signaled a trend away from level-gated content. Virtually all content is targeted for a specific level range, and usually doesn't scale outside of that range.
|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
It is absolutely a fact that strict level-gated content was a bedrock of this game as originally designed and released. However, changes since then have gone more or less directly the opposite way, while not eliminating previous limits altogether, allowing way more flexibility(Praetoria is an unfortunate turn from this trend, but I think the reasons behind it had little to do with this, and more to do with a "pristine" environment for the zone's launch).
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
True, but they have allowed more flexibility in bringing off-level team-mates to level-gated content. Sidekicks, exemplars, auto-SK-EX, the removal of Hazard minimal levels, exemplaring for TFs, that sort of thing. Content is still level gated, but you can still bring practically anyone to practically anything you go to do.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really. Level-gated content has been the norm from launch to ten minutes ago last I checked. The vast overwhelming majority of content is level-gated. The vast overwhelming majority of content that has ever been added is level-gated. At no time have the devs signaled a trend away from level-gated content. Virtually all content is targeted for a specific level range, and usually doesn't scale outside of that range.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
True, but that's not relevant to the context in which I made the original statement, which was whether there was any evidence that the devs design philosophy is consistent with making task forces scale to any level. Level gating plus exemplaring is consistent with what I said: content is targeted at a particular level but there are compromise solutions that sometimes allow players outside that level range to be brought *into* that level range. But that's not the same thing as bringing *the content* into the range of the *player*. They may sound similar, but from a design perspective those are night and day differences.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
True, but they have allowed more flexibility in bringing off-level team-mates to level-gated content. Sidekicks, exemplars, auto-SK-EX, the removal of Hazard minimal levels, exemplaring for TFs, that sort of thing. Content is still level gated, but you can still bring practically anyone to practically anything you go to do.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I wasn't contesting what you said, Arcana, just expanding on it in a different direction.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
And so what if people DO make threats? So what. For real, so what?|
Originally Posted by Slashman
There is, however, a difference between stating that you dislike something, and making veiled threats and dire predictions about segments of the player population disappearing due to you not getting what you want.
|
I think there is a fundamental disconnect in perception here. We seem to have two distinct groups:
*One group sees the entire playerbase as a large mass of people paying subscriptions, buying boosters etc. So as naturally follows, each one of those people - personally like them or not - is generating money for a game that all of us love, no matter how we might feel about each other on the forums or whereever.
You pay a subscription. So do I. So do people you and I like. So do people you and I despise. In the eyes of NCSoft, we're ALL equal. Like it or not.
*******
*The second group sees people they dislike as completely disposable: Have an opinion they disagree with? GTFO! They are the self-appointed arbiters of taste, and only people they like and agree with should be allowed to hold subscriptions. I can draw no other inference from the things I see being said.
SG members quit and now you're alone? Haha, GTFO already.
Dont like a particular game mechanism? TOO BAD, now GTFO and make it snappy!
Wait, I thought we were getting [x] in the next new thing released and its not going to be in there?! I was waiting 5 years for that. I am tired of waiting. I am cancelling my sub. Reply: HAHA, stop whining and GTFO! Who cares!
...the list goes on and on. And who knows, maybe the target of such unwarranted snark might actually take offense and quit. That's money out of the pocket of your favorite game, folks. NCSoft isnt giving [general] you brownie points for being mean to disgruntled people.
Quote:
| I'm sure you're not unaware of the number of people who post in these forums day after day about how change x or y caused their supergroup and all their global friends to vanish into a puff of disgruntled-scented smoke. |
Quote:
| And yet still, here people are, threatening the same tired old nonsense and giving their end-of-subscription dates. Well most of us here don't give a frikkin' freem! |
Quote:
|
Maybe you play on a different set of servers than I do, but Virtue and Freedom are currently red and all other servers are yellow. And what I said still stands, simply because it makes common sense. Find something else to do that entertains you until the game gets fun for you again. You don't have to take that advice, but no one should expect sympathy when they beat the 'I'm quitting and all my friends are quitting' drum. Everyone is tired of that particular rhythm. It's been done to death. |
Oh right. I almost forgot where I was.
Quote:
Yeah, I just returned from a brief break to *that game* as well. It's =brilliant= to play in an atmosphere where you don't have to switch off all the major channels in a zone because of gold-farmers spamming the airwaves and even hounding you in PMs. Where the sum total of your character isn't based on your gear and you can go on TFs with your mates and giggle when you wipe. Where you can play in a game that no matter what level you are, you can still go into missions and run on teams with your friends. Where you can play and create custom content that enhances your character's and/or supergroup's lore.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I've just returned to CoH after several months on other games (sometimes a change of scene is good) and, having recent experience of how this focus on endgame can poison and warp an MMO and its community it feels great to be back in CoH, where end game is one thing to do, rather than the only thing.
In at least one game I can think of (it'll go unnamed but I'm sure everyone knows which one I mean) the endgame doesn't increase your options. It narrows them. Sure there's so many max level raids you could do, but few people do any of them - except for speed runs to gear up for that one 'end of the end game' raid. |
Okay, about the most disappointing aspect of Going Rogue for me is the fact that yeah, I can't get the new badges with my current characters; but I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that and that later issues will fix it.
I don't =want= this game to be all about the gear. I've spent a few months playing games where people lose all sense of friendship and proportion because a mob dropped a purple ultra-rare....and grinding. Grinding and farming drops. Gnurg. *bangs head on desk*
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
And so what if people DO make threats? So what. For real, so what?
I think there is a fundamental disconnect in perception here. We seem to have two distinct groups: *One group sees the entire playerbase as a large mass of people paying subscriptions, buying boosters etc. So as naturally follows, each one of those people - personally like them or not - is generating money for a game that all of us love, no matter how we might feel about each other on the forums or whereever. You pay a subscription. So do I. So do people you and I like. So do people you and I despise. In the eyes of NCSoft, we're ALL equal. Like it or not. ******* *The second group sees people they dislike as completely disposable: Have an opinion they disagree with? GTFO! They are the self-appointed arbiters of taste, and only people they like and agree with should be allowed to hold subscriptions. I can draw no other inference from the things I see being said. SG members quit and now you're alone? Haha, GTFO already. Dont like a particular game mechanism? TOO BAD, now GTFO and make it snappy! Wait, I thought we were getting [x] in the next new thing released and its not going to be in there?! I was waiting 5 years for that. I am tired of waiting. I am cancelling my sub. Reply: HAHA, stop whining and GTFO! Who cares! ...the list goes on and on. And who knows, maybe the target of such unwarranted snark might actually take offense and quit. That's money out of the pocket of your favorite game, folks. NCSoft isnt giving [general] you brownie points for being mean to disgruntled people. |
While I don't doubt that some people actually do fall under your second example, I think what you usually see happening when people respond to the "I'm Quitting" posts is tough love. A lot of the "ragequitters" are like a 5 year old that is always threatening to run away from home but never does because he just wants attention. So instead of feeding the drama many of us call their bluff and tell them, "Fine so go. Do you need a ride?" We know they aren't gonna leave. They've been here 6 years, and you can't drag them away if you tried.
Whether or not you or I think this is a good idea, that is how the game is designed. They would have to rework each mob group to scale across all levels. Some, like the Circle of Thorns were built like that from the get-go. That's why you see them replacing their spawn composition with new enemies as you go up in level. Most, however, have a specific and intended level range that also ties into story and lore.
In essence, you will not see a level 50 Hellion unless the devs reworked the Hellion group to scale that way. Which I I honestly do not think they will.