Paragon City is evil?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
You need actual canon data to back this up instead of fanon.

A lot of the posts in this thread are people attempting to paint the entire thing with a fanon brush instead of looking at actual canon.
I'm curious as to whether you're disregarding me in the same way, as what I said is canon.


 

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Leather, chains, skulls, and spikes are so cliche. The modern villain needs to be chic!

Like this guy:

Oh. I thought she was trying to say I had to be wearing some sort of sexual costume in order to notice a society that is geared to funnel all the wealth upwards into the hands of those who already have more than they will ever need on the backs of those unable to defend themselves was not all that different from a society that is geared to funnel all the wealth upwards into the hands of those who already have more than they will ever need on the backs of those unable to defend themselves except it's different because some of the superpowered weirdoes on that side are "legally" able to set people on fire for looking at them wrong as compared to it not being "legal" on the other side.

Just because someone isn't holding a doomsday device out to ransom the city doesn't mean they're not committing evil.


 

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Originally Posted by NobleFox View Post
So are you saying the Rikti magically generated these homeless persons from thin air in order to use previously nonexistent starving homeless persons to infiltrate our society from the bottom up by... uhh I don't even get where your logic is coming from here.

How can homeless people tempted by Rikti into becoming Rikti servants not count as homeless people?

If the Lost aren't "real" homeless people lured into working for the Rikti, then why does the canon plot insist they are?
Once they team up with the Rikti, they have access to better stuff than a normal homeless person would have


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Originally Posted by NobleFox View Post
Just because someone isn't holding a doomsday device out to ransom the city doesn't mean they're not committing evil.
This is true - Villains are kinda short on doomsday devices - but big on being a minions to a spider obsessed nutcase


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel View Post
In addition to that, I don't think Longbow are official US soldiers. They are part of Freedom Corps which has a world-wide clientele. Ms. Liberty is basically using them as mercenaries.

I think it is far more provacative for Arachnos troops to be active in Faultline and Siren's Call and any number of petty criminal acts including assault of a US prison facility.

It's best not to think too much about such things. It's just a comic book after all.
Very true IF I recall correctly Freedom Corp is international and has some ties and funding with NATO. This comes from the Paragon Wiki information of them:

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The strength of their ideological conviction, coupled with the advanced training and munitions provided by NATO, render the Longbow soldiers a force to be reckoned with
As mentioned by others here the fact that Lord Recluse ceased control of Arachnos and took control of the Rogue Isles doesn't mean his "government" is officially recognized as a nation by ANY other country. Nerva aside Longbow has no premanent base anywhere else in the Isles and their presence in other zones is usually explained through the use of submarines or small covert bases established to gain information or launch special missions. In a sense they are mercenaries but they consider themselves at war with Arachnos and most countries around the world have Special Forces that conduct covert ops behind enemy lines and on enemy soil during a war. To emphasis the fact that the Isles probably are not recognized as a nation, and as mention here in other posts, Recluse has established military bases in Faultline and Siren's Call and is even engaged in open warfare in Siren's Call with Longbow. I don't see a single US military member in either of these locations and seriously doubt the US Government wouldn't respond with military if a nation covertly established a base and began attacking us.

To some extent, Going Rogue or not, all super heroes are vigilantes. With or without government backing they are not Police Officers and do what they do for whatever reason they personally have for seeking justice. In the comics characters like Batman spend as much time hiding from corrupt law enforcement as they do helping the "good" cops. While Superman would never DREAM of roughing up a villain that wasn't really commiting any crime in order to get information Batman has no problem dangling them from rooftops and threatening to let go unless they talk. Spiderman has always had mixed reviews with most Police loving when he shows to save the day and at the same time the very newspaper he works at as Peter Parker continuously condemns him as a vigilante and a criminal. Of course Anti-Heroes like the Punisher have no problem at all torturing villains to get any information they need.

I guess your personal view on what makes a Hero an Hero or a vigilante would be based on what you ideals for them are. Personally I always found Superman to be a Boy Scout. I prefer my heroes with more of an Edge and Batman was always a favorite. Operating just outside the system and using whatever means necessary to get the job done and stop whatever super villain he was after.

Now with all that said lets step back and have a reality check. Its a game and a fantasy one where we can fly and have super powers. If it was based on reality explain why the RIKTI invaded earth intent or either destoying or enslaving all of mankind but a Mothership filled with them still operates in the RWZ and the only military forces their are Vangaurd? Vanguard is a UN based organization of Superheroes so where exactly are the US Air Force and the Marines? LOL Somehow I doubt US taxpayers would be happy with a President and Congress that took the stance .. "Yes we have Alien invaders on US soil but the United Nations has their Vanguard troops working on the situation so we are going to just let them handle things."


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Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Are they really? I'm not sure about this. Just slapping your flag down in some unclaimed land doesn't make it an independent nation. It has to be recognized by other nations. Are the Rogue Isles officially recognized?

*cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k


 

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Originally Posted by NobleFox View Post
Oh. I thought she was trying to say I had to be wearing some sort of sexual costume in order to notice a society that is geared to funnel all the wealth upwards into the hands of those who already have more than they will ever need on the backs of those unable to defend themselves was not all that different from a society that is geared to funnel all the wealth upwards into the hands of those who already have more than they will ever need on the backs of those unable to defend themselves except it's different because some of the superpowered weirdoes on that side are "legally" able to set people on fire for looking at them wrong as compared to it not being "legal" on the other side.

Just because someone isn't holding a doomsday device out to ransom the city doesn't mean they're not committing evil.
But this game isn't "City Where Everybody is Good." It's "City of Heroes." There are heroes. We are them. Everybody else is pretty much...like everybody else is in the real world. As heroes, we usually only meet the good ones, because they're the ones who want to help us, but there is nothing in the game canon that says the average inhabitant of Paragon City isn't as much of a self-serving, complacent jerk as the average inhabitant of wherever you live.

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
How about the hobo NPCs?

Edit: Hmm, scratch that. Almost all of the pedestrians look like hobos.
Every time I walk down the street half the pedestrians look like hobos. I don't live in a bad neighborhood either, people are just slobs.

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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
In a sense they are mercenaries but they consider themselves at war with Arachnos and most countries around the world have Special Forces that conduct covert ops behind enemy lines and on enemy soil during a war.
Longbow/Freedom Corps are not countries. They don't get to declare war.


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To emphasis the fact that the Isles probably are not recognized as a nation, and as mention here in other posts, Recluse has established military bases in Faultline and Siren's Call and is even engaged in open warfare in Siren's Call with Longbow. I don't see a single US military member in either of these locations and seriously doubt the US Government wouldn't respond with military if a nation covertly established a base and began attacking us.
Comic book militaries are incompetent. If they were competent you couldn't make up your own super-powered military that follow whatever rules are convenient for the plot.

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Now with all that said lets step back and have a reality check. Its a game and a fantasy one where we can fly and have super powers. If it was based on reality explain why the RIKTI invaded earth intent or either destoying or enslaving all of mankind but a Mothership filled with them still operates in the RWZ and the only military forces their are Vangaurd? Vanguard is a UN based organization of Superheroes so where exactly are the US Air Force and the Marines? LOL Somehow I doubt US taxpayers would be happy with a President and Congress that took the stance .. "Yes we have Alien invaders on US soil but the United Nations has their Vanguard troops working on the situation so we are going to just let them handle things."
The US army is present in the War Zone. They were more present in the Crash Site, mostly they have been replaced by Vanguard, but their tanks are still there. They just never actually did anything, because they're a comic book military, so they were replaced by one with cooler stuff.


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Originally Posted by eva destruction View Post
every time i walk down the street half the pedestrians look like hobos. I don't live in a bad neighborhood either, people are just slobs.
City of Wal*Mart


 

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Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
I don't see any evidence of people starving to death in KR. I see you trying to spin a dingy area of the city into "People are starving to death in the streets!".
Not only have I never witnessed a civilian starving to death, some of my heroes haven't had a bite to eat in years. With all of the superadyne in the water, cosmic radiation in the air, and mystic auras flowing through the city, I'm not even certain the sun going supernova can kill the population of Paragon City, much less have anyone be killed by something trivial like not eating for a year.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Don't be afraid - unless you're evil
GG your post scare me.

I hope you never get in a position of power.
You're evil without knowing it.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
This is true - Villains are kinda short on doomsday devices - but big on being a minions to a spider obsessed nutcase
It seems half of the characters above level 30 have a nuclear device or three.

Collectively, there have only been a few massively destructive events between Paragon City and the Etoile island chain:
  1. The Hollowing. Caused by 'dyne junkies. (Eastgate)
  2. The Faultline Incident. Caused by the arch-villain Faultline. When rebuilding began, seismic activity on the moon caused further damage. (Overbrook)
  3. The Rikti Crash Site. Caused by Statesman himself during the first Rikti war. (White Plains)
  4. The Aeon Bomb. Caused the the rookie hero Sunburst. (Siren's Call)
  5. Crey's Folly. Caused by a Crey building getting bombed by Rikti during the first Rikti war. (Venice)
  6. Boomtown. Caused by the collateral damage of both heroes and Rikti during the first Rikti war. (Baumtown)
Did I miss any? That's 33% caused directly by heroes, 50% ultimately caused by a war, and only 17% caused by an individual villain.

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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
As mentioned by others here the fact that Lord Recluse ceased control of Arachnos and took control of the Rogue Isles doesn't mean his "government" is officially recognized as a nation by ANY other country.
From the official Arachnos background:
Ruling a nation has allowed Lord Recluse to create armed forces, purchase military hardware, and even research alien technology.
"Nation" implies recognition of that status by at least one other country, which is all that's required.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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Dark Astoria.


 

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Okay, add 'shamanistic dark god' to the list of sources.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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I have generally waved a lot of it off as game mechanics forcing some odd situations to translate to real life. look at it this way, considering the average population of even a large city, would there be enough disaffected young males (remember, no female skulls or hellions) to support the density that they have in game? how about if the 5th column numbers are right about how many of a hundred or thousand candidates they accept into the raseri corps? at a certain level i plow through over a hundred of them, the idea that they would have an applicant density to make up for that jsut gets silly given the number of spawns an average player drops in a single night of play, let alone when teamed. heck, why does anyone even come to paragon or not leave with the possibility of being sacrificed to evil supernatural forces by the circle or chopped up by the vahzilok? and how does it support the population density with that much homicide? lets ignore the no kids thing for a second and realize that quite a lot makes no sense, but fulfills a mmo convention that the consumers apparently aren't comfortable deviating from. sometimes the game acts in a way that doesn't really support any in depth thought, it just is.


 

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Well, it is effectively canon that pretty much all villain factions, even the simple gangs, have access to medical care of some sort. Whether hi-jacked medi-ports, homemade medi-ports, or Zig medi-ports, virtually all villain groups using living human recruits have some sort of contingency plan to survive death (at least on the blue-side. Not sure how all those Hellions and Skulls survive in the Rogue Isles).

Couple with that the likely possiblity that even after the Rikti invasions, the population of Paragon City is likely in the millions. Let's pull a random, and rather small number: Say about 5 million. Let's argue that 1 million of those are too old, and 2 million are too young to be part of any of the villain groups. Then let's say only 10% of the remaining pool have chosen to live their lives of crime. That's still 200,000 people. That's not including villains who immigrate (such as Malta personnel).


 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I've been thinking... if the Rogue isles are their own nation and all the villains come from there then doesn't that make Paragon City the villains for having PPD and Longbow (official representatives and soldiers of the US government) in Rogue Isles... And not only that but they are holding the Villains in a prison which they shouldn't be doing... They should be deporting them.

So they are taking war actions with soldiers and holding prisoners of war seemingly illegally...
Not really since Arachnos first Attack Paragon City first, which cause the heroes to lose there powers, read Coh comic's by Top Cow call Hard Crash. The first Time Lord Recluse and the other Villains first Show up and don't forget them Attacking the The prison, The Zig and freeing all the bad guys there.


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Originally Posted by GreenFIame View Post
Not really since Arachnos first Attack Paragon City first, which cause the heroes to lose there powers, read Coh comic's by Top Cow call Hard Crash. The first Time Lord Recluse and the other Villains first Show up and don't forget them Attacking the The prison, The Zig and freeing all the bad guys there.
All of which happens after Statesman's attack on the Isles.(technically this was the end of beta event, but it made it into cannon when we still had the Paragon Times.)


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Longbow are justice - but they do get a bit carried away from time to time
Yeah the Rikti Warzone Story Arcs are a good example of that.


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That was an awful lot of firsts . . .

The canonical value of the comics has been called in to question on numerous occasions. I'm not sure I'm remembering it correctly, but there was some sort of hierarchy of canon. Foremost: Anything in-game. Then anything the Devs say in an official capacity. Then the Web of Arachnos novel. Then the comics. Then anything the Devs say in an unofficial capacity. And finally, any other official merchandising or lore materials.
I kind of like to view the comics as having taken place in a dimensional shard which is inaccessible to players. It all happened, but in a version of "reality" which isn't necessary the "realities" in which we are currently playing.
As a contrary source, however, the City of Villains Beta suggests that the Freedom Phallanx invaded the Rogue Isles, largely unprovoked.

. . . welllllllllll, I mean, there was that whole thing about Arachnos assault the Zig prison and busting out a ton of meta-powered beings who had been incarcerated.


 

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Originally Posted by VileTerror View Post
Well, it is effectively canon that pretty much all villain factions, even the simple gangs, have access to medical care of some sort. Whether hi-jacked medi-ports, homemade medi-ports, or Zig medi-ports, virtually all villain groups using living human recruits have some sort of contingency plan to survive death (at least on the blue-side. Not sure how all those Hellions and Skulls survive in the Rogue Isles).
Right. As long as we're discussing this seriously (I love the mental exercise that comic-based fiction allows); It's important to remember that in this universe, some things are more advanced, partly (if not wholly) because of a MUCH higher number of super geniuses and inventors existing in the world after the incident with Pandora's Box (an effect not unlike the ancient Celestials' tampering caused in the Marvel universe).

As a result, people have better medical technology at their immediate disposal, and they die less often.

Also remember, unlike the Marvel universe, where time ticks by slooowly (almost 20 "years" have passed since the 1960s!), time in CoH ticks by quickly. A "day" in Paragon City passes by every hour (I believe it's 30 minutes of daylight, 30 minutes of nighttime?), and we can assume our "perspective" of our alter-egos simply filters out boring details like dinner, house chores, paying bills, and trips to the bathroom.

So it's actually taking DAYS for our heroes to arrest/kill lots of bad guys, even though it happens in mere hours for us. Half an hour spent chatting under Atlas is a day spent idling away the hours for our heroes (but everyone needs some time off!). And given the always-on nature of the game, "weeks" easily pass by when we're not even watching our characters lives.

As for the moral dilemmas highlighted in earlier posts (Might as well say SOMETHING on topic here)... I think Going Rogue will provide game mechanics that help make those dilemmas even more tangible, but they were always present for my characters. The majority of my heroes would never attack a group of Hellions just for loitering. I've seen many teammates abuse their power with abandon, but I've also met lots of heroes who wait to see evidence of a crime (I play on the Virtue server).

On the other hand, I have one character (soon-to-be vigilante) whose wife and parents were all murdered by the street thugs, and he's not so nice to the loiterers!

So no. Paragon City isn't evil. But the branches within the FBSA might want to consider some reform in its registration process.


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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay View Post
Getting licensed as a Hero entitles you to a lot of wretched privileges. As Poshyb joked about before, being a "Hero" means you can literally eviscerate someone for loitering. We know that the Hellions aren't nice, but "IRL"*, physically attacking someone for obviously being part of a gang isn't okay. You need significantly more evidence than that.
In real life, gang members don't freeze people in blocks of ice, vomit fire all over the place, have ties to the netherworld which allow them to suck the life out of someone or exhibit the ability to summon giant granite mallets out of thin air, either.

Furthermore, even in the worst areas of the United States, gang members don't indiscriminately attack everyone who comes within forty feet of them. There is no aggro code in real life. In Co*, if you're seen (and within an appropriate level range), you're attacked, period. Doesn't matter if you decided to attack first or not, those gang members are coded to attack you just for walking near them.

Paragon City isn't a real world friendly suburban neighborhood, it's a fantasy war zone, and you don't need "evidence" to defend yourself or the local populace.


 

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Are people forgetting the safeguard missions where Arachnos robs the banks?

Or the mayhem missions where villains (and thusly arachnos due to VEATS) go to Paragon to rob the banks and pretty much cause chaos and destruction?

Hero License gives one the law enforcement capacity of PPD. Nothing in that license from what I can see says that license extends past Paragon City, but nothing say one can't go fight crime else where without a license either.

Also, I'm pretty sure those Hellions (or whatever mobs that give xp) tend to just attack heroes who walk by. That's a crime. They get sent to jail

For CoV, your characters are KNOWN villains. So of course the Longbow attacks them. Sorry, but the longbow are evil doesn't fly so well. They're heroes trying to capture a known and wanted criminal.

Just because your bio says "I'm a normal civvie" doesn't make it so in the games eyes. Which makes me wonder, why people who use that sort of bio, just don't overlook the longbow attacking them.

It's kinda like those bio you see "Statesman killed my parents now Im evil and want revenge" when I then look at the game cannon and can only think "ummm...no he didn't"

Or the "im wholesale killing people and the people love me for it" ummm...cannon wise, that never happened. You arrested them.

Also mind you, it's an MMO...Azuria didn't lose the pendant 1million times. It was stolen once...okay maybe twice...but really, the game can't help but reuse the same storylines.

Something to think about. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of RP or Immersion, you have to look at the things like TFs/SFs, repeated story arcs differently than..."OMG AGAIN?"



As for Wyvern. They're a merc group.


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As for time advancement and those shadows that move at like, 15 mph and creep me the **** out, I like to assume the planets in this game just move really fast, but the gravitational pull is such that people don't fly off the planet or anything (just keep punching science in the face until it works). It's probably perfectly reasonable in CoH World to be up for DAYS. In fact, that's likely how they measure actual time, by days, not hours.


 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Or the "im wholesale killing people and the people love me for it" ummm...cannon wise, that never happened. You arrested them.
Canon-wise, you actually just "defeated" them, the same way that villains do - so you could be doing anything from arresting them to feeding them their own organs to letting them off with a stern warning


~union4lyfe~

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I've been thinking... if the Rogue isles are their own nation and all the villains come from there then doesn't that make Paragon City the villains for having PPD and Longbow (official representatives and soldiers of the US government) in Rogue Isles... And not only that but they are holding the Villains in a prison which they shouldn't be doing... They should be deporting them.

So they are taking war actions with soldiers and holding prisoners of war seemingly illegally...
Not all villains come from the Rogue Isles. Presumably, most of the villains that were originally thrown in the Zig were birthed or at least convictied on USA soil. The fact that they were then illegally freed and transported to a foreign country does not get them off the hook. They are still convicts in the USA, and the USA can ask for them back.

Apparently, the Rogue Isles refused to allow the USA to extradite the criminals. Ms. Liberty then apparently requested that the UN special forces known as the Longbow extradite the criminals on international authority. The Rogue Isles is refusing to recognize the jurisdiction of Longbow in this matter and has ordered their troops to resist them.

The unanswered question is whether the UN actually condones the Longbow activities in the Rogue Isles (which would imply some kind of international injunction against them), or is simply 'looking the other way' (in which case the Longbow troops are breaking international law).

I suspect the situation is canonically vague, and not merely vague canon.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!